emkay Posted April 21, 2017 Author Share Posted April 21, 2017 Regarding other productions: They may not fit my taste, they may not fully utilize Pokey, but as long as my ears doesn't bleed I don't feel the urge to comment. BTW: You asked for comments... LOL. If you don't recognize, what I'm writing about, you really should stop writing anything music related. A notation row played wrong does not make your ears bleeding? And, no, no answer needed ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+MrFish Posted April 21, 2017 Share Posted April 21, 2017 (edited) I noticed this issue with mod files when I first started using RMT. It sounds like the main problem channel for Star Trek is the bass part. It sounds way out of key/pitch -- not the slight stuff you usually hear due to granularity. I think Analmux tried to explain the same issue to you once as well emkay, when you were making an example for one of his RMT modifications. Edited April 21, 2017 by MrFish Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+MrFish Posted April 21, 2017 Share Posted April 21, 2017 (edited) It even gives a warning about such conditions relating to pitch when you import a MOD file. Notice the word "tunings" in the sentence highlighted below. Edited April 21, 2017 by MrFish Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Stephen Posted April 22, 2017 Share Posted April 22, 2017 LOL. If you don't recognize, what I'm writing about, you really should stop writing anything music related. A notation row played wrong does not make your ears bleeding? And, no, no answer needed ... After that last star trek post, I wouldn't criticize anybody with regards to "anything music related". 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_The Doctor__ Posted April 22, 2017 Share Posted April 22, 2017 It must be my Vulcan ears, I understand the points to be made... as noted good and bad... it just hurt so bad, I am not sure when I'll recover... a warning label would have been nice! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted April 22, 2017 Author Share Posted April 22, 2017 (edited) After that last star trek post, I wouldn't criticize anybody with regards to "anything music related". Some post before, it looked like You understand the problems, but your post turned it vice versa. The tune cannot be done better there. Edited April 22, 2017 by emkay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_The Doctor__ Posted April 22, 2017 Share Posted April 22, 2017 (edited) But moving the tune up or down the scale, changing register, dropping the least important note, or using tuned or better instrument would make it better.... Leaving high pitched channel open when it's not in the original score hurts.... oh heck emkay I have always been pretty supportive of you and you efforts... I think if you put your mind to it, you could pull it off... I think your creative enough to make this an excellent rendition, use the 'sick/med bay thump' sound from those other example you made in this sond and adjust the rest to fit... I think it will be excellent on real hardware.... YOU CAN DO IT.... it may be hard but you've done the 'impossible' before. Edited April 22, 2017 by _The Doctor__ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted April 22, 2017 Author Share Posted April 22, 2017 But moving the tune up or down the scale, changing register, dropping the least important note, or using tuned or better instrument would make it better.... Leaving high pitched channel open when it's not in the original score hurts.... I know that. But in other tunes, when people liked them, your ears get blasted on and on with high peeks. Just have a listen to the Tempest Extreme tunes... so time by time, I do those "sensoric" tunes, to get what people like. It still doesn't make sense to me, people like eardrum rupturing sounds "that way" but not "this way" .... I'll try the tune in the patched RMT.... later... About changing notes.... The tune is the real "Star Trek" tune. Changing parts of it, makes it "not real" anymore. Getting rid of unwanted cancelling, or using better basses, is still not solved in RMT. To those other "music experts" Just a reminder about "off tune" ... if several channels weren't "in tune", cancelling won't happen. Altirra breaks the high pitched tones, so the resulting frequency "you hear" changes, that don't happen on the real thing. Other tunes, particular 3 channel SIDs get based on three different frequency ranges. This makes it far easier to rebuild that with the available environment for POKEY tunes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irgendwer Posted April 22, 2017 Share Posted April 22, 2017 About changing notes.... The tune is the real "Star Trek" tune. Changing parts of it, makes it "not real" anymore. Getting rid of unwanted cancelling, or using better basses, is still not solved in RMT. Ok, one more time: Supply the RMT and I will roughly change the keys to fix the harmonics to demonstrate that the bad sound is no machine/emulator or RMT restriction. Deal? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted April 22, 2017 Author Share Posted April 22, 2017 Ok, one more time: Supply the RMT and I will roughly change the keys to fix the harmonics to demonstrate that the bad sound is no machine/emulator or RMT restriction. Deal? Let's wait and see... erm ... listen murks.zip Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irgendwer Posted April 22, 2017 Share Posted April 22, 2017 (edited) Let's wait and see... erm ... listen Some notes: * I did not change any note, just instruments (mainly key/offset and sound in one case) and in an other case lowered a bit the volume * all the instruments where pretty off in respect to a harmonic replay (so the source mod file samples are based on different keys (like ivop said: not uncommon)) * changes are only rough, the tune wouldn't pass my personal QA and if I would care, I would apply many other changes to the instruments and volumes AND notes too * and in advantage: Emkay may say he hears cancelling or unclean notes or he finds the replay to high, but that makes no difference that this was recorded with an unpatched RMT and that (much more important) the notes were totally off in his version and everything else which may be a Pokey or whatever restriction stands for miles and miles behind this fact. This was definitely the last time for me to prove this. StarTrek.rmt.zip Edited April 22, 2017 by Irgendwer 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted April 22, 2017 Author Share Posted April 22, 2017 (edited) ???? No comment Edited April 22, 2017 by emkay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted April 22, 2017 Author Share Posted April 22, 2017 You guys might also like... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesD Posted April 22, 2017 Share Posted April 22, 2017 Some notes: * I did not change any note, just instruments (mainly key/offset and sound in one case) and in an other case lowered a bit the volume * all the instruments where pretty off in respect to a harmonic replay (so the source mod file samples are based on different keys (like ivop said: not uncommon)) * changes are only rough, the tune wouldn't pass my personal QA and if I would care, I would apply many other changes to the instruments and volumes AND notes too * and in advantage: Emkay may say he hears cancelling or unclean notes or he finds the replay to high, but that makes no difference that this was recorded with an unpatched RMT and that (much more important) the notes were totally off in his version and everything else which may be a Pokey or whatever restriction stands for miles and miles behind this fact. This was definitely the last time for me to prove this. That sounds pretty good, but the original doesn't have a drum track so it sounds a little odd. I think the original used a horn for that part. It wasn't nearly as low. Impressive though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Stephen Posted April 22, 2017 Share Posted April 22, 2017 ???? No comment Is this showing the inconsistencies in instrumentation you talk about? The fact that you cannot reset certain timers / PoKey registers fast enough to get "stable" sounding? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gozar Posted April 22, 2017 Share Posted April 22, 2017 https://youtu.be/RUZwuTRDRnQ Some notes: * all the instruments where pretty off in respect to a harmonic replay (so the source mod file samples are based on different keys (like ivop said: not uncommon)) This sums up the problem with first version. It's not the individual instruments being out of tune with themselves. It's the fact that each instrument is playing in a different key. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irgendwer Posted April 23, 2017 Share Posted April 23, 2017 That sounds pretty good, but the original doesn't have a drum track so it sounds a little odd. I think the original used a horn for that part. It wasn't nearly as low. Impressive though. Thanks. Question is how the source mod-file was created before imported to RMT. Yes, the original theme doesn't contain a drum, but since all these notes are played with the same key, I assumed that this maybe a drum-like voice in the mod-file (anything else would hardly fit). If Emkay would supply the mod-file he imported this could also be clarified. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irgendwer Posted April 23, 2017 Share Posted April 23, 2017 No comment "...everything else which may be a Pokey or whatever restriction stands for miles and miles behind..." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted April 23, 2017 Author Share Posted April 23, 2017 "...everything else which may be a Pokey or whatever restriction stands for miles and miles behind..." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance What to say ? I thought, you would do some better tuning. But , again, you put POKEY into that shifted squealing that destroys music in all respects. Even more interesting, you got some secondands for that. But that was something to expect ... I approved in many demonstrations that POKEY is able to play music without that squealing and to use "musical sounds". Well. It would be better to ignore your writings. But I'm doing that "experiments" for fun. If people like you like that shifted squealing, no problem for me. If that wasn't preventing further development of POKEY music, it would be even nicer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Stephen Posted April 23, 2017 Share Posted April 23, 2017 What to say ? I thought, you would do some better tuning. But , again, you put POKEY into that shifted squealing that destroys music in all respects. Even more interesting, you got some secondands for that. But that was something to expect ... I approved in many demonstrations that POKEY is able to play music without that squealing and to use "musical sounds". Well. It would be better to ignore your writings. But I'm doing that "experiments" for fun. If people like you like that shifted squealing, no problem for me. If that wasn't preventing further development of POKEY music, it would be even nicer. I truly am amazed - to the point I think you are trolling us. To say his post was squealing and not musical, while expecting praise for that post that made shitty flute sound bad just defies all explanation and words from me. I think I am finally out of these threads. I tried to be constructive, but I see now, that there is just no getting through to you. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheddy Posted April 24, 2017 Share Posted April 24, 2017 (edited) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harmony Perception section may be interesting for why most people don't prefer dissonance (out of tune) over instrument type or "flavour" of sound. Edited April 24, 2017 by Sheddy 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_The Doctor__ Posted April 24, 2017 Share Posted April 24, 2017 spot on Sheddy! an appropriate link and concise delivery to the portions of relevance Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted April 24, 2017 Author Share Posted April 24, 2017 I truly am amazed - to the point I think you are trolling us. To say his post was squealing and not musical, while expecting praise for that post that made shitty flute sound bad just defies all explanation and words from me. I think I am finally out of these threads. I tried to be constructive, but I see now, that there is just no getting through to you.You're screwing things up. It's "How" "Irgendwer" posts, not the critisism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted April 24, 2017 Author Share Posted April 24, 2017 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harmony Perception section may be interesting for why most people don't prefer dissonance (out of tune) over instrument type or "flavour" of sound. To talk of "dissonance" using POKEY for creating music, is to ask people, if a volcano is hot. The "dissonance" can be reduced but never disabled. Depending on the "unsharp" 8 bit resolution, "talking of harmonics" is also useless. It's also a method of doing a broader sound, to keep things slightly detuned. Also, tunes that were based on "A" have a better response than tunes that base on "A#" ... so how to get a common base ? It would be nice to have some real musician around. But that's also an inversion ... because it would imply to have a musical environment available. And, instead of creating working harmonics, some "clever guy" comes around the corner, turning things back to the false... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesD Posted April 24, 2017 Share Posted April 24, 2017 When you simulate an instrument by altering a square wave it may sound good at one frequency, but that doesn't mean it's going to scale up or down well.You have analog circuitry and speaker interaction that isn't going to be consistent. Combine several "instruments" like this and you might get some nasty harmonics.I'm not sure the problem is music so much as math. You almost need to analyse what is being produced and have a program calculate corrections to get the desired results. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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