1088XEL Alternative Mother-Board Project

[+MrFish]

It would be cool if he built another one based on this board.

 

What would be even cooler would be for someone (hint, hint) to design a motherboard specifically for use in a laptop case.

[+mytek]

 

What would be even cooler would be for someone (hint, hint) to design a motherboard specifically for use in a laptop case.

 

It would have to be built similar to a 'thin' Mini-ITX with everything low profile including the rear panel connectors. I think the biggest problem is, what do you use for your case? Doing a quick Google search doesn't turn up anything besides total DIY custom cases. And to design something to work in some salvaged laptop case is a problem from a sourcing standpoint. Did you have something particular in mind?

 

- Michael

[+CharlieChaplin]

Just the 1500XL laptop: http://atariage.com/forums/topic/108271-atari-portable-computer/?do=findComment&comment=1310712

Edited March 29, 2017 by CharlieChaplin

[+MrFish]

It would have to be built similar to a 'thin' Mini-ITX with everything low profile including the rear panel connectors. I think the biggest problem is, what do you use for your case? Doing a quick Google search doesn't turn up anything besides total DIY custom cases. And to design something to work in some salvaged laptop case is a problem from a sourcing standpoint. Did you have something particular in mind?

 

Didn't give it much thought; the idea just came to mind. I'm not aware of any generic laptop cases that can be had -- although that doesn't mean something couldn't be sourced.

 

The first thing that did come to mind when I was making my post was the plethora of older Dell laptops (for instance), which can be had in lots for cheap on eBay -- especially if they're all non-working units. I'll have to look into it and see what's out there these days.

Edited March 29, 2017 by MrFish

[+MrFish]

Just the 1500XL laptop: http://atariage.com/forums/topic/108271-atari-portable-computer/?do=findComment&comment=1310712

 

Ah, yeah, I almost forgot about that. I'm sure a lot of work went into the production of the case, but if the design could be copied and reproduced in manufacture... maybe an expensive prospect though.

[+mytek]

 

Ah, yeah, I almost forgot about that. I'm sure a lot of work went into the production of the case, but if the design could be copied and reproduced in manufacture... maybe an expensive prospect though.

 

Now if you want an All-In-One that's a much easier proposition, but as far as I can tell laptop cases are not available. Although I sure found a lot of threads where people were looking for something like that to put their Mini-ITX boards into, so at least the interest is there. And given time if that interest doesn't go away or better yet grows, then someone will produce a case. Doing a complete custom one from scratch is out of my comfort zone and capabilities. I'll leave that to people like Ben.

 

-------------------------------

 

Since I'm waiting for new soldering iron tips and solder with water soluble flux to get here, I can't build up a board yet, so I figure I'll post a few more pics while I wait

 

So here's what I got so far on accessing the cartridge. This cart tunnel is a prototype and will need a bit more refining, but it does give a little better idea of what I have in mind. The front panel power switch has both a blue and a red led built in (upper and lower half illumination). So I'll be using the red led for SIO2PC-USB activity, and of course the blue for power ON.

 

 

And here are some scanned images of the unstuffed PCB...

 

 

 

Note: the white specs are caused by dust on the board that I should have blown off before scanning the boards.

 

BTW, a few people have PM'ed me as to where I got my boards manufactured. ALLPCB is the place (hopefully it's ok to give them a little free advertising). They were very quick (only 5-1/2 day turn-around), and the quality looks excellent. These boards are 4-layer with a 2 mm board thickness. ALLPCB is essentially a broker for Chinese based board manufacturers. This board run was assigned to...

 

- Michael

Edited March 30, 2017 by mytekcontrols

[Gandor]

Damn that looks awesome in the case

[+mytek]

Just an update... the solder supplies I was waiting for arrived today, so I'll be assembling the first board pretty soon, as in after the weekend. Should be able to test very early next week.

 

- Michael

[Matej]

@MyTekControls:

Looks very nice in that MacMini like case!!!

I can imagine lasercuted acrylic top plate with laser engraved ATARI logo

and one blue LED inside case!

 

[AtariNerd]

Trying to think, technically, where something analogous to this might have fit into Atari's production time-line, if they had had the benefit of fore-sight. Certain things are hard to project foreward from what was known or anticipated then, compared to what we know of now and can ret-con in retrospect. 30-plus years of fan-dedication and use, the movement forward in technology, design and the advent of modern design software, does make, as very literally realized here, it more accesable to modern reinvention. Still, Atari had some wild, far-reaching designs that never did see the light-of-day of production, that we've only recently uncovered, so who knows.

The possibilties of the 4-layer lay-out and the freedom of placement it allows, has played a significant part in allowing this design to come to life. 4 -layer PCBs have been available since the 1960s, though compared to a standard double-sided or 2-layer board, which I'm assuming Atari and many of the other manufactures used, from a cost-conscious perspective, was more expensive. Given the surface-reduction here though, I'm thinking it might not have really added too much to the overall cost. Still, something that probably wouldn't have occured to them, given the foot-print of the cases incorporated a keyboard, which would denote the smallest practical size, so going for a much smaller or as small as possible, wouldn't have been as much of an incentive.

The switchable NTSC/PAL system in one design was certainly doable from the beginning, with a little fore-thought, though probably not immediately forseen and the original was likely only reworked as an afterthought, after those markets opened.

I think 64K single chip packages weren't regularily available until about 1984, or so? It's theoretically possible they might have implemented a memory- card as an add-on, that would plug vertically in that same space, though it would add cost as compared to memory being directly socketed/ soldered and would have made little logical sense at the time. Single OS of course. Check.

The possibilty they might have designed the main-board without the RF module as an integrated system and possibly having it be an optional add-on, plug-in module, that would inferface with an RGB-style pin-out, is another bit of lateral thinking that probably wouldn't have occured to them, either. It wasn't unprecidented for business-class machine manufacturers whose systems would previously have needed dedicated monitors, to offer it as an optional add-on, though. It's easy enough to think of doing so, now, given our access to modern display tech that implement similar standards and because it would have actually overall come in as a cost-recuction on the main design, even if added back on as an expense for an add-on. This would have allowed them to position the system in both the business and home markets, more effectively.

Having the key-board be an add-on is a bit of a given to aiding to that dual identity, as well and might have allowed more choice, though I'm not sure if that kind of concession to the PC standard would have fit with their earlier friendly hobbiest mind-set (or aesthetic - the lovely beige wedge.) or would have helped with branding or the need for a limited closed ecosystem of approved devices, that having an all-in-one no-fuss box, allowed. Maybe a little later.

Thinking this might have been possible in 1985, or so, but it would have required a significant shift in thinking. They might have employed it as a divide between their 8/16 - bit systems, both using similar style cases to unify their manufacturing and developement process, but usingf differing main-boards to save costs. Maybe share some devices between them, like printers, etc.

Anyways, it's fun to speculate. :-)

[+mytek]

After doing this one. I think with a little more effort I could have made it even smaller (think Intel 5x5 board), especially if I wasn't too concerned about allowing for Rapidus, VBXE, and Sofia upgrades. In fact some of the strange positioning and orientation of the CPU and ANTIC was dictated by this decision. However the choice of Mini-ITX really allows for the most flexibility when it comes to packaging of the board into a case.

 

- Michael

[thgill]

If you ever decide to do another board, I think a drop in replacement board for the 800xl would be awesome.

[Kyle22]

Sure, I'd like a 1450XLD form factor board. I wonder what that would cost?

 

[AtariNerd]

Maybe, if there were to be just compatable legacy boards developed from this, without most of the encorporated expansions (though, I'm of the impression that something like the U/AV or at least something work-alike for the video built-in to the board (a good video circuit!) is pretty neccessary, if it is meant to be useful going forward -RF has had its day. I can understand the want to keep it for the sake of preservation, but since the output can be remodulated back to , naw let it go. - and enhanced memory is just too useful and something seen in the life on the series, though a base of 64K is sufficient for most legacy software - dual POKEY is pretty nice, but maybe not quite as vital, either).

 

Instead of discreet ports and sockets for connection on the main-board, just have headers that everyone can attache the appropiate cable to and route to wherever they want on the case. This would keep it pretty small. As far as mounting it within a given oldskewl case - well, there is always the low-tech hackney model: mount it to some thin stock, that has been cut to fit the original boards space and mount the connectors to the respective places.

[+mytek]

Sure, I'd like a 1450XLD form factor board. I wonder what that would cost?

 

 

Since the XEL project morphed into the implementation of A8 hardware in a Mini-ITX form factor, I really don't see myself creating another board at nearly 3 times the size. What would be the point? I could see doing this if there were 1450XLD cases in need of a new motherboard. But in the real world this is kind of like putting the cart before the horse, where there never has been a publicly available 1450XLD, nor a case for one. Not that this wouldn't be a cool project, to resurrect what Atari couldn't get pushed out the door. And to do that idea justice, I really think it it deserves its own separate topic. However if no one is going to seriously get behind the 'doing it' part, it'll probably die on the vine like so many of those earlier 'create a new MOBO' threads. But there's certainly a lot of fun to be had in pure speculation of what something like that could be made into using what is available today

 

To answer the question of cost for such a thing, let's use the XEL project as a basis. A fully loaded XEL based on a 10 board run, and assuming that all parts are also purchased at this quantity will come in around $225. This also assumes that the Atari specific chips are included (based on the 2016 B&C posted price sheet), and the cost of the U1MB, UAV, and SparkFun boards are to be a part of that as well. Add in a bit for shipping, which won't be too bad considering the quantity order, and we'll round that up to a total cost of $240.

 

Now factoring in a board of 3 times the size, the cost for the unstuffed 4-Layer PCB will be approximately $114 a piece. That's about $95 more expensive than the XEL PCB. So that brings the total cost in at $335 for a completed assembly. Of course nothing is for free, so I doubt if you'll be able to buy this at that price without also compensating the builder for their time. In the best case scenario, you luck out and someone like me designs this and puts it out there for all to use. Then someone else picks that up and gets 9 other people to go in with him and raises the money to purchase 10 of everything, with each person building their own when the parts arrive. Only then will the price be $335. However in the real world, or at least the AA one, I would bump that up by at least $100 because everyone deserves to get paid for their time and labor, plus there will be added shipping cost to get it to your doorstep. So in reality with all things considered a re-make of something like the XEL in a 1450XLD form factor would come in around $435. But what will you put that into

 

- Michael

[Kyle22]

Sorry Michael to put you through the work of figuring out that cost.

 

I was only trying to point out that the previous question about an 800XL board would be quite expensive. The XLD board would of course cost more because of its size.

[+mytek]

Sorry Michael to put you through the work of figuring out that cost.

 

I was only trying to point out that the previous question about an 800XL board would be quite expensive. The XLD board would of course cost more because of its size.

 

I get it... you were playing the Devil's Advocate, and not actually suggesting that such a thing be done

 

No problem for me in calculating the cost for such a thing, and out of curiosity it was quite interesting to do so. Personally if I were to create another board, I would go smaller just for the fun factor of creating a handheld battery powered version with built-in screen and controls like what was done for the 5200. Now will I do that? No... I'm just not crazy enough at this point, and/or bored enough to do so.

 

- Michael

[+mytek]

I have the first board nearly 100% assembled. What's missing are the 3 female headers for where the U1MB board plugs in. I had to order some taller ones since I forgot how much the SST chip hung down below the U1MB.

 

 

The SparkFun FTDI break-out board and the UAV have their male pin headers directly soldered into the XEL board. This was particularly important for the SparkFun FTDI board since plugging in the USB tended to dislodge the board when using female headers to mate it to the XEL. This was probably not so necessary for the UAV, and perhaps for future upgradeability it might be better to use female headers to plug it into. What can I say... I like to think Bryan's board will work as advertised, and my past experience says it will

 

I tested the power on/off circuit and the distributed +5 V, and all was fine. I also checked for a heart beat coming out of the primary oscillator and it to looked good as well. So that is about as far as I can take it without the U1MB in place. Hopefully the new headers will arrive in a day or two, then the real testing begins.

 

- Michael

[Brentarian]

Wow! Amazing work there, Michael!

[Van]

Soooo Yummy Don't you just hate it when you're 99.9% done and realize you need one or two parts. Used to be able to drive to a hole-in-the wall electronics store that would have just about every part you could think of and end up leaving with something you never thought you needed till you saw it on the rack. Good times.

Yogi

[adam242]

That is a thing of beauty.. I really respect guys like you with both the ambition and ability to create something like this.

[Bikerbob]

I come into the topic once a week or so to see whats happening and how this is progressing.

 

I know from following it. ( I think) that this was ment as a DIY project that Mytech did the board up for.. congrats on getting the first board to where it is .. WOW. looks awesome.

 

I am interested in this as a finished (minus the add on boards) product. I can plug in chips, and U1mb etc.. but all the headers and resistors etc.etc.. not interested.

 

So I remember way back in the thread where people stated they were interested, as far as I remember Mytech said no to building these for people.

 

IS there a enough interest to get a firm to build MOST of the board? and sell it that way? This is an awesome project, and I would love to have one.

 

James

[+mytek]

I come into the topic once a week or so to see whats happening and how this is progressing.

 

I know from following it. ( I think) that this was ment as a DIY project that Mytech did the board up for.. congrats on getting the first board to where it is .. WOW. looks awesome.

 

I am interested in this as a finished (minus the add on boards) product. I can plug in chips, and U1mb etc.. but all the headers and resistors etc.etc.. not interested.

 

So I remember way back in the thread where people stated they were interested, as far as I remember Mytech said no to building these for people.

 

IS there a enough interest to get a firm to build MOST of the board? and sell it that way? This is an awesome project, and I would love to have one.

 

James

 

Hi James

 

There will be an organized effort to build these, and a pre-order will be launched to make that happen. But... it won't be me doing that. However I will fully support the guy that is proposing to take that on, and do my best to help answer any technical questions about the product by the people who end up buying it. Hopefully this won't be anymore complicated than pointing them in the right direction where existing documentation can be found for the U1MB, UAV, TK-II, Mousetari, RespeQt (or APE) since these items will either be a built-in aspect or readily supported. Overall the finished product should work the same as a modified A8 from the olden days incorporating these upgrades, with the big difference being a much more refined and smaller design.

 

More info about the pre-order will be forthcoming, but for now this project is still in R&D mode until such time that I feel everything is working properly and a final board revision is ready to go.

 

And yes this did start out as DIY project for yours truly, but now it has grown to be somewhat more than that.

 

- Michael

[Kyle22]

Michael, you are creating a beautiful machine.

[+MrFish]

Overall the finished product should work the same as a modified A8 from the olden days incorporating these upgrades, with the big difference being a much more refined and smaller design.

 

Including all the Phi-related instability issues?

 

 

And yes this did start out as DIY project for yours truly, but now it has grown to be somewhat more than that.

 

Surely you knew better Michael.