1088XEL Alternative Mother-Board Project

[JoSch]

I had to change it myself, although it is my understanding that at one time, possibly back when Candle made an early run, they would have been vertical as well. Anyway there is an ongoing discussion with Lotharek about the possibility of being able to purchase the U1MB in this configuration so that no modification will be necessary. Yes you could use short cables and use male headers on the XEL side, but a much nicer and neater solution is obtained by having the vertical male headers on the U1MB.

 

- Michael

 

Yeah, that's what I feared

Would be probably nicer to just plug the board.

 

BTW: Do you have a (preliminary) parts list?

[flashjazzcat]

Every single time I install an U1MB for someone, I find myself removing the open right-angle headers and replacing them with boxed IDC housings as per the original design. The change was made for some spurious reason of vertical clearance owing to the recommended positioning of the board being disregarded. The IDC housings should be reinstated post-haste. I ordered twenty sets of IDC connectors and I'm about half way through them already.

 

Anyway: great to see the 1088XEL board up and running.

[+mytek]

Do you have a (preliminary) parts list?

I'd rather hold off on releasing one until everything is locked in better.

 

- Michael

[+mytek]

Every single time I install an U1MB for someone, I find myself removing the open right-angle headers and replacing them with boxed IDC housings as per the original design. The change was made for some spurious reason of vertical clearance owing to the recommended positioning of the board being disregarded. The IDC housings should be reinstated post-haste. I ordered twenty sets of IDC connectors and I'm about half way through them already.

 

Anyway: great to see the 1088XEL board up and running.

I left enough clearance around the mating connectors on the XEL to accommodate boxed headers. And now I remember it was you that told me they used to come that way

 

- Michael

[+orpheuswaking]

I'll need to grab some IDC headers for the u1MB when I order it

 

as an owner of an original Candle unit the IDC headers work great

Edited April 7, 2017 by orpheuswaking

[JoSch]

I'd rather hold off on releasing one until everything is locked in better.

 

- Michael

The Atari part list would be:

- Sally

- Antic

- GTIA

- PIA

- Pokey

- MMU or Freddie

- ROMs

 

Did I forget anything?

[+mytek]

No ROMs, MMU, or Freddie. this is all handled by the U1MB. So yes to the top five chips in your list (2 Pokeys if you want Stereo).

 

And most of the other chips have their part numbers printed on the PCB's silkscreen. Speaking of which, on the final rev boards I will be eliminating the Atari specific part numbers on the silkscreen, since especially where it concerns Antic and GTIA those are variable depending upon PAL or NTSC, or even when manufactured.

 

- Michael

Edited April 7, 2017 by mytekcontrols

[+mytek]

I thought you guys might like to follow what is being said about this project in Poland: https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=pl&u=http://www.atari.org.pl/forum/viewtopic.php%3Fid%3D14555&prev=search

 

- Michael

[TangentAudio]

I thought you guys might like to follow what is being said about this project in Poland: https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=pl&u=http://www.atari.org.pl/forum/viewtopic.php%3Fid%3D14555&prev=search

 

- Michael

 

"Well, interesting, donkey in a manger was given"

 

I think something may have been lost (or gained) in translation.

[+mytek]

 

"Well, interesting, donkey in a manger was given"

 

I think something may have been lost (or gained) in translation.

 

Yeah that was particularly odd Would be nice to know what was actually meant by that. And it'll probably be quite hilarious in retrospect when the true meaning is revealed

 

Let me just add, that it looks like someone was proposing a response from those shores for the two new entries this year in the alternative A8 Mobo category. I for one would love to see that

 

- Michael

 

BTW, I'll be taking a break from this project for the weekend, and then getting back to it on Monday. Old brain needs to recharge. However I am still open to ideas about what could be causing the extended memory problems on the XEL. And truthfully my brain will still be working on it as well

Edited April 7, 2017 by mytekcontrols

[+Firedawg]

I've used Google Translator before in my communication with non-English speaking folks, and I would caution its use as I had to explain some apparent missed translated words (disrespectful) in the past. All words do not translate over so well.

 

Mike

[TangentAudio]

Best I can figure is that it's reference to a proverb or a fairy tale, maybe about deciding between two equally good things? Hard to get the exact meaning since this is also translated. We need one of our Polish friends to educate us, I think. Otherwise it's going to end up like that Star Trek episode... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darmok

 

 

Fairy tale donkey / donkey in the manger was given
Alexander Fredro

The donkey in the manger was given,
In one oat, in the other hay.

The ear is clipped, the head is spinning.
And it smells, and it catches.

From whom will now start,
To get yourself tasty?

↓

Difficult choice, difficult agreement -
Grabs hay, oats pity,
Grabs oats, grieve him hay.

And so it stands until morning,
From morning till evening;
Until finally it was time,
That the donkey among the food -
Hungry fell.

Edited April 7, 2017 by TangentAudio

[+mytek]

I've used Google Translator before in my communication with non-English speaking folks, and I would caution its use as I had to explain some apparent missed translated words (disrespectful) in the past. All words do not translate over so well.

 

Mike

 

Good point. There is a button on that linked page that will still let you view the original un-translated text. So yes I agree with TangentAudio that it would be great if someone who speaks both languages fluently could help with better translation of some of the odd wording and/or references.

 

- Michael

[+Stephen]

Best I can figure is that it's reference to a proverb or a fairy tale, maybe about deciding between two equally good things? Hard to get the exact meaning since this is also translated. We need one of our Polish friends to educate us, I think. Otherwise it's going to end up like that Star Trek episode... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darmok

 

Best episode ever (see my avatar). That's a screenshot from the A8 - I can give you the image if you want.

[+ZuluGula]

Best I can figure is that it's reference to a proverb or a fairy tale, maybe about deciding between two equally good things?

 

You are correct. Original poster is writing about difficult choice between 1088 XEL and Eclaire XL.

I can add that hi would "batter" 1088 XEL designer for his choice of monitor connector.

[+mytek]

Best episode ever (see my avatar). That's a screenshot from the A8 - I can give you the image if you want.

 

I agree, great episode!

 

 

 

You are correct. Original poster is writing about difficult choice between 1088 XEL and Eclaire XL.

I can add that hi would "batter" 1088 XEL designer for his choice of monitor connector.

 

I'm sorry, but I really don't understand what it is you are trying to say with that last sentence (looks like auto spell check mangled it). What I do understand is that it appears to be a comment coming from that Polish forum. With a Sophia installed, you have two choices. The DB-9 that it came with and the DIN 13 on the rear by crimping an additional IDC 5x5 connector on the same cable and plugging it into the RGB-THRU connector on the XEL.

 

My advice to that poster about his quandary on which board to go with, is to go with whatever brings you the most of what you want. I couldn't help but notice that there were numerous complaints about what I did or did not do in that Polish forum topic. Be nice to see what the complainers create themselves, then the shoe will be on the other foot.

 

- Michael

Edited April 8, 2017 by mytekcontrols

[Kavik]

So are both you and Kyle thinking that the PBI aspect is somehow causing the problem? Because the 1200XL OS does allow the RAM test to work completely, and it doesn't have PBI code built-in?

 

- Michael

 

Maybe it just really wants to be a 1200XEL

 

Kidding aside, congrats on working prototype! Best of luck with the troubleshooting.

 

-Kav

[AtariNerd]

Will eventually wind up getting both this and the Eclaire ; ) - the appeal of using stock hardware in a new package, for this (really do love having the original chips), but the possibilities for use of the turbo-charge mode on the FPGA. also have great appeal.

Either , with FJC's GOS, a few apps, memory expansions and The VBXE, give the possibilty for more everyday work (messing about) for specialized tasks, plus playing all of the old games we enjoy, in a more-readily accessable way for us hardware novices. Also, the vague possibilty that it might appeal and at least prove somewhat useful/accesable , to the generation after us.

As much as we may have an enduring love for the old platforms, often it's pure nostalgia and our individual experiences that play a great part, which can't be readily replicated, even as it still inspires hobiests from the old and new schools of coders and hardware hackers to try their hand. The techniques developed from that history, have transferred forward and have been replicated many-fold over unto other and newer platforms and with the advance of technology, have been expanded on beyond what we could imagine. Yes, there are the milestones, gems that stick out, but with so many platforms and the breadth of experiences available, it becomes difficult to stand out. Many modern, casual games replicate much of the skill / game mechanics we knew, all with prettier graphics/sounds/stories. That and any useful work, is better served by modern systems in many cases.

 

As time marches on, hardware begins to fail and modern standards make it more difficult to employ, even if it does, it becomes even more problematic to maintain. It takes a level of commitment to keep the old systems alive. Eventually, as morbid as it may sound, when the last users from that time pass on and memory fades, so shall in a great part the impetus to do so. So, Kudos to you tinkerers and coders, for keeping the hardware relevant and alive, as well as allow us old-timers to enjoy what we knew, in a more readily-accesable and convenient package; as well as a shot to live beyond us. Much appreciated.

[+mytek]

Maybe it just really wants to be a 1200XEL

 

Kidding aside, congrats on working prototype! Best of luck with the troubleshooting.

 

-Kav

Yep a 1200XL it likes to be, and I'm thinking maybe that's because like the 1200 was, this too is a big departure in packaging then what came before it. Call it kinship if you will. However I really do want it to be much more than a 1200XL, and hopefully that will be realized pretty soon. Thank you Kav for the good wishes towards this goal.

 

<p>Will eventually wind up getting both this and the Eclaire  ; ) - the appeal of using stock hardware in a new package, for this (really do love having the original chips), but the possibilities for use of the turbo-charge mode on the FPGA. also have great appeal. </p>

<p> </p>

<p>Either , with FJC's GOS, a few apps, memory expansions and The VBXE, give the possibilty for more everyday work (messing about) for specialized tasks, plus playing all of the old games we enjoy, in a more-readily accessable way for us hardware novices. Also, the vague possibilty that it might appeal and at least prove somewhat useful/accesable , to the generation after us.</p>

<p> </p>

<p>As much as we may have an enduring love for the old platforms, often it's pure nostalgia and our individual experiences play a great part, which can't be readily replicated, even as it still inspires hobiests from the old and new schools of coders and hardware hackers to try their hand.  The techniques developed from that history, have transferred forward and have been replicated many-fold over unto other and newer platforms and with the advance of technology, have been expanded on beyond what we could imagine. Yes, there are the milestones, gems that stick out, but with so many platforms and the breadth of experiences available, it becomes difficult to stand out. Many modern=, casual games replicate much of the skill / game mechanics we knew, all with prettier graphics/sounds/stories. That and any useful work, is better served by modern systems in many cases.</p>

<p> </p>

<p>As time marches on, hardware begins to fail and modern standards make it more difficult to employ, even if it does, it becomes even more problematic to maintain. It takes a level of commitment to keep the old systems alive. Eventually, as morbid as it may sound, when the last users from that time pass on and memory fades, so shall in a great part the impetus to do so.   So,  Kudos to you tinkerers and coders,  for keeping the hardware relevant and alive, as well as allow us old-timers to enjoy what we knew, in a more readily-accesable and convenient package; as well as a shot to live beyond us. Much appreciated.</p>

I agree that both of these new Mini-ITX A8's have something of value to offer, each with its own unique twist and/or vision building upon not only what Atari did, but also what some very creative individuals created long after the parent passed away. And yes hopefully if nothing else is accomplished by these new machines, that at least they will breathe​ new life into these classic systems and perhaps as you pointed out, make them more I interesting for the generations to come.

 

- Michael

Edited April 8, 2017 by mytekcontrols

[pajero_pn]

Hello

For your project (and more) I have a covox add-on. One cable = address selection

Will it be possible? Buy only the motherboard?

Converting Schema: ExpressPCB to KiCAD? Possible?

Regards

 

 

Ps. for covox player see http://atariage.com/forums/topic/264125-best-mod-player/?p=3735171

Edited April 8, 2017 by pajero_pn

[Van]

Hi pajero_pn,

Nice covox How can I get your board? Web site?

 

When the board is finished, mytekcontrol is planning to release the design open source at his site AtariBits.com There is another member who intends to do a production run. But that doesn't mean others are blocked from doing their own run. If there is local interest you could do a group PCB order or kit run.

 

Yogi

[+orpheuswaking]

I'm of course absolutely going to buy one of the production run boards of the 1088xel. Not sure about the eclaire, likely it will depend on the final cost. I would like both but as always finances come into play.

 

My favorite part of the 1088xel is that the initial bulk purchase run will be kit form. Nothing like putting together your own machine.

[+mytek]

Hello

 

For your project (and more) I have a covox add-on. One cable = address selection

 

Will it be possible? Buy only the motherboard?

 

Converting Schema: ExpressPCB to KiCAD? Possible?

 

Regards

 

 

Ps. for covox player see http://atariage.com/forums/topic/264125-best-mod-player/?p=3735171

 

This looks good and it should fit fine on top of the XEL's Pokey as you've shown it. Can you explain more about what external signals are specifically needed for operation? And what is the 12v/5v jumper thing about? Perhaps there is way that I can better support this in the released version of the XEL PCB if I know what you require (i.e, extra header with desired signal connections).

 

Buying the motherboard separately is always going to be a possibility since the Gerber files will be released for all to use. However the minimum practical board run will be 5 pieces, so if you only want one board some sort of shared purchase with other interested parties might be the way to go (as I just noticed that Yogi suggested ). EDIT: If you are willing to work with me, I was thinking that we could do a trade of one of your working Covox boards for one of the final released versions of the XEL incorporating the changes required to support your board (this would be a bare board with connector kit included).

 

There is no practical way that I know of to convert ExpressPCB to KiCad. Although with that said, I seem to recall reading somewhere that someone did do something like this for their own personal project. Unfortunately I don't remember where I read that, or if that software was ever released. Might be worthwhile to do some searching and/or contact that person if they can be found.

 

- Michael

Edited April 8, 2017 by mytekcontrols

[+mytek]

First, great to see signs of life!

By symptoms, it seems like bus contention. So given that the U1MB is operating correctly in your other system, I checked this MMU pinout https://www.atarimax.com/jindroush.atari.org/achmmu.html;from your MMU header pin 15 is routed to PIA Port B6, pin 16, where as it's listed as an output to BASIC ROM CS. I think the U1MB ignores the mobo Basic ROM (?) but having 2 outputs tied together isn't good, or it could be a typo on that page. Just a thought, will continue looking...

Yogi

EDIT: just confirmed the MMU connections to PIA- PB0, PB1 and PB7, all have pullups. PB6 is left unconnected.

 

Yogi after dropping this and coming back to it, I totally get what you were trying to tell me (which my blocked mind at the time didn't). Yes there is definitely a mistake I made by having PB6 tied into what would normally be MMU pin 13 (Basic Enable). And now it all makes sense why I also had the MMU /MPD input going to OSROM A13 (which is also a mistake). Apparently the Sobola XEGS schematic is in error (which was my template for the early design of the XEL) and if I got this correct, probably should have shown MMU pin 13 going to A13 on the OSROM instead. Yes with PB6 tied to MMU pin 13 we have two outputs in contention. Don't know if that is the cause of my memory problems I've been seeing, but when I get back I'll lift PB6 and see what happens.

 

Sorry to take so long for this to register

 

- Michael

[Van]

 

Yogi after dropping this and coming back to it, I totally get what you were trying to tell me (which my blocked mind at the time didn't). Yes there is definitely a mistake I made by having PB6 tied into what would normally be MMU pin 13 (Basic Enable). And now it all makes sense why I also had the MMU /MPD input going to OSROM A13 (which is also a mistake). Apparently the Sobola XEGS schematic is in error (which was my template for the early design of the XEL) and if I got this correct, probably should have shown MMU pin 13 going to A13 on the OSROM instead. Yes with PB6 tied to MMU pin 13 we have two outputs in contention. Don't know if that is the cause of my memory problems I've been seeing, but when I get back I'll lift PB6 and see what happens.

 

Sorry to take so long for this to register

 

- Michael

It's just a guess and depends on what the U1MB is doing with it. I don't know how the U1MB handles the mobo Basic ROM. Always de-selected? Which begs the question, for me at least, IS the mobo Basic needed? I know U1MB has a flash slot for Basic but IF it will use the Mobo ROM also (as default?).

 

As a side note, My original U1MB has the PB0, 1 and 7 pins ( MMU pins 6, 9, 18, all the PB port pins) removed from the box header ( Header pins removed: 5, 12, 18), which is not the case on the new version (?). Also a couple adjacent pins are connected to the empty donuts to aid routing ( header pin footprints shorted together 3-5, 17-18). The on board PIA outputs may be interacting with S5 (MMU pin 9) and S4 (MMU pin19). So for a original version U1MB, will have to bend the PIA PB pins so they do not go into the socket. This may be a quick test to see if this effects the memory issue, yes? I can try to get some close-up pixs if you like.

 

The only other things I have seen that caught my interest is the SRAM CE logic, as its handled different from the XL circuit or at least a SRAM mod I've seen. In that application /CASINH was driving into CE, the Hi cycle, CASINH, enabling RAM, but of course /EXTSEL was handled else where on the mobo. Your design logic should work but with a gate delay of ~10nS, no big deal. I'm not real clear on the XL handling of /CASINH but I think it is gated on and off depending on I/O, Cart or ROM accesses. Which would fit with the symptoms so it's suspect, but can't see how unless it was being pulled high ALL the time, some where, with the SRAM enabled on all buss cycles.

 

The other 'issue' is with PH2; the 'conventional wisdom' has been to gate it with R/W and /(R/W) into /OE and /WE, the theory being that CE is slower then /OE. This would require another NAND gate and I would expect that IF there was an issue with PH2 you wouldn't be able to access ANY ram.

 

Yogi

Edited April 8, 2017 by Van