JamesD Posted February 9, 2017 Share Posted February 9, 2017 In short, modems felt tacky on the Amiga. And often times I needed two or three separate terminal programs to do a "session" of whatever it was I was doing. Weird, but accessing S-registers and AT commands on the Amiga was crude. But on the Apple II it was just like hacking and finding secret things. I never had that problem. Quote Link to comment https://forums.atariage.com/topic/261516-the-amiga-why-did-it-fail-so-hard-in-the-united-states/page/6/#findComment-3691441 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keatah Posted February 9, 2017 Share Posted February 9, 2017 The Apple II was lame. I remember it being inferior to the Commodore 64 or Atari 800/XL/XE line. No comparison. Not even going to try and compare it with the Amiga! ..yet at the same time the user experience and software were superior. How can this be? Quote Link to comment https://forums.atariage.com/topic/261516-the-amiga-why-did-it-fail-so-hard-in-the-united-states/page/6/#findComment-3691442 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillLoguidice Posted February 9, 2017 Share Posted February 9, 2017 For anyone calling any of the major vintage computer systems lame makes me think they lack a proper understanding of said system. Each major platform had its advantages and disadvantages, and things that it did better (or worse) than the competition. 2 Quote Link to comment https://forums.atariage.com/topic/261516-the-amiga-why-did-it-fail-so-hard-in-the-united-states/page/6/#findComment-3691504 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keatah Posted February 9, 2017 Share Posted February 9, 2017 I never had that problem. My bad luck and Amiga ecosphere seemed to be never ending back in that day. Ughh.. Quote Link to comment https://forums.atariage.com/topic/261516-the-amiga-why-did-it-fail-so-hard-in-the-united-states/page/6/#findComment-3691517 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keatah Posted February 9, 2017 Share Posted February 9, 2017 It is important to keep the time frame in focus. Specs and capabilities were changing year to year in early days. Quote Link to comment https://forums.atariage.com/topic/261516-the-amiga-why-did-it-fail-so-hard-in-the-united-states/page/6/#findComment-3691521 Share on other sites More sharing options...
tjlazer Posted February 9, 2017 Share Posted February 9, 2017 (edited) ..yet at the same time the user experience and software were superior. How can this be? The same could be said with all the PC users out there. Their experience using their CGA PC's with MS-DOS or Windows 3.1 was so much better than the Amiga and its multitasking OS, 4096 colors and digital stereo sound. LOL Edited February 9, 2017 by tjlazer Quote Link to comment https://forums.atariage.com/topic/261516-the-amiga-why-did-it-fail-so-hard-in-the-united-states/page/6/#findComment-3691632 Share on other sites More sharing options...
tjlazer Posted February 9, 2017 Share Posted February 9, 2017 For anyone calling any of the major vintage computer systems lame makes me think they lack a proper understanding of said system. Each major platform had its advantages and disadvantages, and things that it did better (or worse) than the competition. Oh I had my share of hands on time with the Apple II in school. That was enough for me to see how inferior it was to my Commodore 64 or Atari 800 XL. The only reason why it did well was because it was sold in schools and had a pretty decent software library. But we all know how much better the Commodore 64 did with the sales! Quote Link to comment https://forums.atariage.com/topic/261516-the-amiga-why-did-it-fail-so-hard-in-the-united-states/page/6/#findComment-3691635 Share on other sites More sharing options...
tjlazer Posted February 9, 2017 Share Posted February 9, 2017 (edited) I also very vividly recall the computer scene in the United States from 1985 to 1990. I used to go to software etc. and Babbage's and browse software titles for my Commodore 64, Atari 800XL and then after Amiga 1000. For a while there, there was a pretty good selection of software on the shelf but as the years pass heading into 1990 it started dwindling down. Especially for the Amiga. The PC version of software didn't start using VGA until very late 80s to early 1990. And within a few years the PC surpassed the Amiga in graphics and sound quality. Think Kings Quest V. It was over for the Amiga after this and especially when Wolf 3D and Doom came out. My last glimpse of software on the shelf resorted to a little small corner in the store where there was maybe 10 or 15 titles. Then one day all the Amiga software was gone. Around 1993. Edited February 9, 2017 by tjlazer Quote Link to comment https://forums.atariage.com/topic/261516-the-amiga-why-did-it-fail-so-hard-in-the-united-states/page/6/#findComment-3691640 Share on other sites More sharing options...
D.Daniels Posted February 9, 2017 Share Posted February 9, 2017 (edited) Really? I seem to recall that Acorn had been working on the Proton for a while, and rapidly whipped together a computer that in no way matched BBC's spec. Somehow they convinced them their computer was better than the spec, which was tailored to match the Grundy NewBrain before it went bancrupt. Perhaps it took them a week to go from the Proton prototype to a mostly working BBC Micro. yeah that sounds more correct, I just remember seeing a program where they (acorn) said they had a computer but didn't, sorry I don't check my facts because I'm lazy like that...............and a moron with spots still, 30+ Edited February 9, 2017 by D.Daniels 1 Quote Link to comment https://forums.atariage.com/topic/261516-the-amiga-why-did-it-fail-so-hard-in-the-united-states/page/6/#findComment-3691726 Share on other sites More sharing options...
carlsson Posted February 9, 2017 Share Posted February 9, 2017 Was it by chance Micro Men? I'm sure the Proton was not close to being ready to ship or anything so in that respect it could be correct that they hurried up to have a complete computer to show. I'm not sure, but I think the Lorraine shown behind very closed doors at Winter CES 1984 also was an instable, quickly cobbled together prototype but OTOH that might be the case most of the time, in particular if you are working on a design and need investors before finishing it. In a world where the video game market had not "crashed", I still wonder if Amiga's Lorraine had been possible to sell as a perhaps floppy based console. Even if it was technically superior, it might've been too expensive compared with the ColecoVision, Atari 5200/7800, soon to come Famicom, Sega Mark /// etc so in every alternative reality, perhaps it was destined to become a mid-end 16-bit home computer in a market where apparently IBM gained a market share larger and faster than they had imagined. Quote Link to comment https://forums.atariage.com/topic/261516-the-amiga-why-did-it-fail-so-hard-in-the-united-states/page/6/#findComment-3691773 Share on other sites More sharing options...
D.Daniels Posted February 9, 2017 Share Posted February 9, 2017 (edited) Was it by chance Micro Men? I'm sure the Proton was not close to being ready to ship or anything so in that respect it could be correct that they hurried up to have a complete computer to show. I'm not sure, but I think the Lorraine shown behind very closed doors at Winter CES 1984 also was an instable, quickly cobbled together prototype but OTOH that might be the case most of the time, in particular if you are working on a design and need investors before finishing it. In a world where the video game market had not "crashed", I still wonder if Amiga's Lorraine had been possible to sell as a perhaps floppy based console. Even if it was technically superior, it might've been too expensive compared with the ColecoVision, Atari 5200/7800, soon to come Famicom, Sega Mark /// etc so in every alternative reality, perhaps it was destined to become a mid-end 16-bit home computer in a market where apparently IBM gained a market share larger and faster than they had imagined. if your asking me, maybe, I seen quite a few documentaries so can't remember, there was a series on Channel 4 in the UK in the late 90's which was about computer industry Amiga console would have been expensive, even in 91 the Amiga was £350 (3900.90 krona) when I got my ST, and the MegaDrive was £190. So it would have had to have been released before 90/91. Maybe Amiga could have streamlined it. Edited February 9, 2017 by D.Daniels Quote Link to comment https://forums.atariage.com/topic/261516-the-amiga-why-did-it-fail-so-hard-in-the-united-states/page/6/#findComment-3692009 Share on other sites More sharing options...
high voltage Posted February 9, 2017 Share Posted February 9, 2017 Apple ][ had VisiCalc....killer app, nuff said Quote Link to comment https://forums.atariage.com/topic/261516-the-amiga-why-did-it-fail-so-hard-in-the-united-states/page/6/#findComment-3692022 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keatah Posted February 9, 2017 Share Posted February 9, 2017 I think the Apple II had other killer apps, too. I remember first seeing PrintShop on Apple. then other systems later on. Quote Link to comment https://forums.atariage.com/topic/261516-the-amiga-why-did-it-fail-so-hard-in-the-united-states/page/6/#findComment-3692053 Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesD Posted February 9, 2017 Share Posted February 9, 2017 The same could be said with all the PC users out there. Their experience using their CGA PC's with MS-DOS or Windows 3.1 was so much better than the Amiga and its multitasking OS, 4096 colors and digital stereo sound. LOL Did you own an Amiga? Quote Link to comment https://forums.atariage.com/topic/261516-the-amiga-why-did-it-fail-so-hard-in-the-united-states/page/6/#findComment-3692107 Share on other sites More sharing options...
tjlazer Posted February 9, 2017 Share Posted February 9, 2017 Did you own an Amiga? Yes I got my first Amiga in 1986 and I still use them. I have collected every Amiga model except the 4000T. I also collect Atari computers as you can see in my sig. 1 Quote Link to comment https://forums.atariage.com/topic/261516-the-amiga-why-did-it-fail-so-hard-in-the-united-states/page/6/#findComment-3692118 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nebulon Posted February 9, 2017 Share Posted February 9, 2017 true I guess overall that's also why the Amiga failed in the US, as arcade games/ports like Afterburner (US version) look really close to the arcade, but you can see why the arcade hardware used 2 Motorola 68000, as the Amiga cannot match the arcade. The Nes was ten times cheaper and not expected to do anything as close as the arcade, so the Amiga looked weak. Commercial software was really bad. Outrun on the ST is bad but the Amiga version is almost a sick joke. It looks worse than the Master System and the driver and girl swap places when you turn at certain points. I think the main contributing factor to the Amiga version of Outrun's dismal appearance and gameplay falls on the shoulders of the developer who worked on it. Super Hang-On for the Amiga is not a bad conversion by comparison. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dRdZSYpACk8 1 Quote Link to comment https://forums.atariage.com/topic/261516-the-amiga-why-did-it-fail-so-hard-in-the-united-states/page/6/#findComment-3692193 Share on other sites More sharing options...
carlsson Posted February 9, 2017 Share Posted February 9, 2017 Yes, my way of thinking is that the Amiga as a games console should've been released no later than 1986, just like the computer eventually was. Perhaps sooner, if there was a market for it. 64-128K RAM most certainly had been enough, and the ROM would not need as much routines for drawing a GUI and so on. Lack of keyboard, fewer expansion ports (no need for serial and parallel ports, probably not external disk drive) would save some money, but I've got a feeling all those together would not make a huge difference in consumer price, at least not early on. I suppose Nintendo and Sega already in the mid 80's were subventioning their consoles a bit on behalf of getting the money back from games sales. Whoever ended up with the Amiga may have done the same. The question is if the disk format would've had encrypted sectors to prevent unlicensed third party games software, in order to get some money back. Also disk based games probably would've had to be comparable in price with whatever games software the Macintosh, of course Atari ST and other computers had. I think cartidge games often were more expensive, but might also last longer. 1 Quote Link to comment https://forums.atariage.com/topic/261516-the-amiga-why-did-it-fail-so-hard-in-the-united-states/page/6/#findComment-3692277 Share on other sites More sharing options...
D.Daniels Posted February 10, 2017 Share Posted February 10, 2017 I think the main contributing factor to the Amiga version of Outrun's dismal appearance and gameplay falls on the shoulders of the developer who worked on it. Super Hang-On for the Amiga is not a bad conversion by comparison. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dRdZSYpACk8 sure dude, my ST came with Outrun by Probe/US Gold and Space Harrier by Elite, your 100% right about developers, as SH was cool, I was just saying from a public view, it didn't do the Amiga any favour's when big conversions were so bad and lazily programmed Quote Link to comment https://forums.atariage.com/topic/261516-the-amiga-why-did-it-fail-so-hard-in-the-united-states/page/6/#findComment-3692551 Share on other sites More sharing options...
D.Daniels Posted February 10, 2017 Share Posted February 10, 2017 (edited) Yes, my way of thinking is that the Amiga as a games console should've been released no later than 1986, just like the computer eventually was. Perhaps sooner, if there was a market for it. 64-128K RAM most certainly had been enough, and the ROM would not need as much routines for drawing a GUI and so on. Lack of keyboard, fewer expansion ports (no need for serial and parallel ports, probably not external disk drive) would save some money, but I've got a feeling all those together would not make a huge difference in consumer price, at least not early on. I suppose Nintendo and Sega already in the mid 80's were subventioning their consoles a bit on behalf of getting the money back from games sales. Whoever ended up with the Amiga may have done the same. The question is if the disk format would've had encrypted sectors to prevent unlicensed third party games software, in order to get some money back. Also disk based games probably would've had to be comparable in price with whatever games software the Macintosh, of course Atari ST and other computers had. I think cartidge games often were more expensive, but might also last longer. it would have had to been cartridge as piracy was rife with the ST/Amiga, the 2nd problem is that the Amiga always got lazy arcade ports, a console version would have needed a bit more quality in my opinion. Most of the arcade ports were made in the UK by 4 guys and a dog. That's partly why some of the ports sucked. Such like companies would be throwing out shovel ware to fast rather than be patient. Edited February 10, 2017 by D.Daniels Quote Link to comment https://forums.atariage.com/topic/261516-the-amiga-why-did-it-fail-so-hard-in-the-united-states/page/6/#findComment-3692552 Share on other sites More sharing options...
enderoute Posted February 11, 2017 Share Posted February 11, 2017 Sorry, late to the party, was waiting for validation. Some of this stuff was said already but here is the summary from my mind: 1) Marketing - this seems to be what RJ Mical and Dave Needle thought 2) Branding - Gary Kidall from the Computer Chronicles pointed to the fact that the brand Commodore was associated with cheap work and it was hard to shake that preconception. 3) Ahead of its time - every platform had its killer app, IBM had Lotus 123, Mac had publishing software, for the Amiga the killer app was Deluxe Paint. The problem was that in the 80s there wasn't a good appreciation or business model for digital pictures. It's hard for us to imagine today since so much art is consumed digitally. Your art was trapped in the computer and the printers of the time couldn't capture the same result you saw on the screen. 4) Japanese Video Games - I liked someone else's idea that Mario had something to do with it. That the software and the price of the NES was so compelling that they never looked to the superior graphics of the Amiga. It's interesting to speculate what would have happened if Jay Minor didn't get his way and the Amiga was video game machine, not a computer. Quote Link to comment https://forums.atariage.com/topic/261516-the-amiga-why-did-it-fail-so-hard-in-the-united-states/page/6/#findComment-3693565 Share on other sites More sharing options...
tjlazer Posted February 12, 2017 Share Posted February 12, 2017 The video toaster was the Amiga's killer app Quote Link to comment https://forums.atariage.com/topic/261516-the-amiga-why-did-it-fail-so-hard-in-the-united-states/page/6/#findComment-3694041 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillLoguidice Posted February 12, 2017 Share Posted February 12, 2017 Yes, the Amiga's killer app was video production, and the ST's killer app was music production. Unfortunately, neither qualified as mainstream. The Macintosh was fortunate to have desktop publishing to at least carve out a more sustainable niche. 2 Quote Link to comment https://forums.atariage.com/topic/261516-the-amiga-why-did-it-fail-so-hard-in-the-united-states/page/6/#findComment-3694047 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atariboy2600 Posted February 12, 2017 Share Posted February 12, 2017 (edited) If you really wanted to know what Killed The Amiga? youtu.be/xogXc-dUmNE?t=5m53s Edited February 12, 2017 by Atariboy2600 Quote Link to comment https://forums.atariage.com/topic/261516-the-amiga-why-did-it-fail-so-hard-in-the-united-states/page/6/#findComment-3694076 Share on other sites More sharing options...
high voltage Posted February 13, 2017 Share Posted February 13, 2017 (edited) Killer app is a program which sells hardware. I don't believe that the Video Toaster on Amiga did this. Was it available in computer shops? For example, customers saw the 3D starfield from Star Raiders running on the A8 in a computer shop or Sears and such. People bought the program and the computer it ran on. Same with VisiCalc for A][, people saw the program, wanted it, only available on A][, both was purchased. Space Invaders on VCS was another. Wiki lists too many nowadays, eg pack-ins like Tetris, or SMB. Pack-ins can't be killer apps as there is no choice. Anyway, I don't think that the Video Toaster sold loads of hardware. OK, you had to buy the Amiga as well, but a killer-app? Doubtful. Edited February 13, 2017 by high voltage Quote Link to comment https://forums.atariage.com/topic/261516-the-amiga-why-did-it-fail-so-hard-in-the-united-states/page/6/#findComment-3694976 Share on other sites More sharing options...
empsolo Posted February 13, 2017 Author Share Posted February 13, 2017 Killer app is a program which sells hardware. I don't believe that the Video Toaster on Amiga did this. Was it available in computer shops? For example, customers saw the 3D starfield from Star Raiders running on the A8 in a computer shop or Sears and such. People bought the program and the computer it ran on. Same with VisiCalc for A][, people saw the program, wanted it, only available on A][, both was purchased. Space Invaders on VCS was another. Wiki lists too many nowadays, eg pack-ins like Tetris, or SMB. Pack-ins can't be killer apps as there is no choice. Anyway, I don't think that the Video Toaster sold loads of hardware. OK, you had to buy the Amiga as well, but a killer-app? Doubtful. Except Nintendo didn't start packing in Super Mario brothers until after the completion of the test launch. During which Nintendo noticed how well SMB was selling with purchases of the system and decided to offer a $99 SMB bundle. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 1 Quote Link to comment https://forums.atariage.com/topic/261516-the-amiga-why-did-it-fail-so-hard-in-the-united-states/page/6/#findComment-3695028 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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