Developers/testing required for mini-itx clone system - ÉclaireXL

[danwinslow]

I'm keen on getting some help with the firmware. Is anyone capable/willing to take on the role of 'main firmware developer'? So I can focus on purely the hardware side.

 

It can be written in any language, but since code size needs to be small, and the existing firmware is written in it, I propose C. Debugging will be via gdb and a jtag connection to the eclaireXL.

 

The firmware currently provides the following features:

i) USB HID joystick and keyboard decoding

ii) SD card reading, fat decoding

iii) SIO drive emulation

iv) Cartridge emu setup

v) OS/BASIC rom loading

vi) Video settings

 

I'm in the process of changing the core to be more a 'modern system' with the 6502 and antic as additional bus masters. Previously the 'ZPU' was bolted on top of the Atari as an afterthought.

 

The plan is to use the VexRiscV CPU (can compile with GCC, debug via GDB) and a crossbar wishbone interconnect. All the atari custom chips, USB hardware, SD card, will be mapped into a large linear address space. Then the 6502 and antic will access this via an address translation layer. With possibly a 2nd PIA to allow the 6502 to access some of the additional hardware and settings (e.g. turbo!).

 

I'm busily working on the hardware changes for this, which will take some time to build. After which I'll need to port or rewrite the firmware for the new setup. I think it needs a significant rewrite to be 'good' but I don't think I have the time/motivation for that. Is anyone up for the challenge?

 

I doubt if any one person would be able to take all of this up. Phaeron, Flashjazzcat, the many excellent german & polish coders, all come to mind. I am actually very experienced with C and I've done some simplistic USB HID work before, so I might be able to help with item i. I would need a lot more details about the USB input architecture and probably would eventually need a test system.

[santosp]

Dan you have pm.

[danwinslow]

OK, Thanks Santos.

 

So. Santos or foft-

1. Will I need a JTAG cable? Can I upload through the serial port?

2. Is there a native OS or something on this board, like a linux or whatever?

3. What dev tools will produce the correct binaries? GCC? Visual C++? Either?

4. Any docs that relate to the process of getting new firmware onto the board? If the board is an FPGA, and that only, I assume the only way to get new firmware on it is with the JTAG or serial?

5. Besides JTAG, do I need any special hardware/software to upload or talk to the board?

5. Is it too late to talk you into adding a cheap Ethernet solution to the board?

Edited September 11, 2017 by danwinslow

[santosp]

OK, Thanks Santos.

 

So. Santos or foft-

1. Will I need a JTAG cable? Can I upload through the serial port?

4. Any docs that relate to the process of getting new firmware onto the board? If the board is an FPGA, and that only, I assume the only way to get new firmware on it is with the JTAG or serial?

5. Besides JTAG, do I need any special hardware/software to upload or talk to the board?

 

You need exact this cheap cable.

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Altera-Programmer-FPGA-CPLD-JTAG-Quartus-USB-Blaster-Compatible-Flux-Workshop-/111612485555?hash=item19fc9f5fb3:g:2WIAAOSwBLlU9cqd

 

6. Is it too late to talk you into adding a cheap Ethernet solution to the board?

 

I think that is never too late for anything! We have a expansion connector and a big chat around this!

Edited September 11, 2017 by santosp

[danwinslow]

On the Ethernet subject, I can recommend one if you get to that point. Most convenient would be a CS8900A compatible as I already have a driver, but anything with an 8-bit mode would be fine. You may want to consider a chip that has its own TCP stack already on it, too, although that would be a big change. The crucial point there is that it's got to be interfaced via PBI or something, or even mapped in memory. Reading from SIO serial won't work well.

Edited September 11, 2017 by danwinslow

[foft]

OK, Thanks Santos.

 

So. Santos or foft-

1. Will I need a JTAG cable? Can I upload through the serial port?

2. Is there a native OS or something on this board, like a linux or whatever?

3. What dev tools will produce the correct binaries? GCC? Visual C++? Either?

4. Any docs that relate to the process of getting new firmware onto the board? If the board is an FPGA, and that only, I assume the only way to get new firmware on it is with the JTAG or serial?

5. Besides JTAG, do I need any special hardware/software to upload or talk to the board?

5. Is it too late to talk you into adding a cheap Ethernet solution to the board?

1) Need a USB blaster

2) No, not even libc. No malloc, just use the ram. There is a small printf and lightweight fat and sd card library. Also a USB library.

3) Currently zpu gcc. I plan to switch to vexriscv. There you have gcc, gdb and openocd to debug. Can use eclipse as an ide (I don't). Linux is easiest for the tool chain. I use virtual box on my windows laptop if you don't have a Linux box.

4) Currently built into rom on core file - can update rom without full rebuild. On vexriscv can load via jtag and I'd like to get code loading from sd and spi flash.

5) Altera quartus free edition.

6) If you can convince Panos! Price and board space are potential issues.

[foft]

On the Ethernet subject, I can recommend one if you get to that point. Most convenient would be a CS8900A compatible as I already have a driver, but anything with an 8-bit mode would be fine. You may want to consider a chip that has its own TCP stack already on it, too, although that would be a big change. The crucial point there is that it's got to be interfaced via PBI or something, or even mapped in memory. Reading from SIO serial won't work well.

I was thinking of putting things like this in the large linear space. The 6502 could bank it in with a 2nd pia. Would that work?

[danwinslow]

1) Need a USB blaster

2) No, not even libc. No malloc, just use the ram. There is a small printf and lightweight fat and sd card library. Also a USB library.

3) Currently zpu gcc. I plan to switch to vexriscv. There you have gcc, gdb and openocd to debug. Can use eclipse as an ide (I don't). Linux is easiest for the tool chain. I use virtual box on my windows laptop if you don't have a Linux box.

4) Currently built into rom on core file - can update rom without full rebuild. On vexriscv can load via jtag and I'd like to get code loading from sd and spi flash.

5) Altera quartus free edition.

6) If you can convince Panos! Price and board space are potential issues.

OK, thanks. Just read up on ZPU, interesting. I assume vexriscv is a similar situation?

 

I was thinking of putting things like this in the large linear space. The 6502 could bank it in with a 2nd pia. Would that work?

Well, that would put it into address space at some spot, so yep as long as the device has a memory mappable command/data bus. PBI would also work.

[foft]

Vexriscv is new and the riscv architecture looks like it'll be around for a while. There are links to gcc and gdb binaries on the GitHub. So far I compiled the cpu and ran the example of debugging with verilator. So a way to go on that one yet.

 

I prefer memory mapping to pbi, it'll play better with turbo mode. Have to wait a long time on pbi to know if eg extsel is set.

[HiassofT]

A probably much easier option for networking would be to use the rather popular and cheap ESP8266 boards.

 

Just synthesize another uart into the design, mmap it somewhere in the atari space and and provide 2 GPIOs (maybe on some connector with GND and 3V3 as well) where users can hook up the board.

 

We could even dynamically route that to SIO so it could (optionally) be accessed via standard pokey as well. But a fast UART would probably be better.

 

so long,

 

Hias

[seastalker]

Has anyone done a comparison of the Eclair project with other FPGA solutions like MIst or MIster? I heard the core developer is the same on both. I'm excited for all new Atari projects and products but have several original Atari 8-bits, and a MIst. I may create a USB 800xl since none of the new projects fit natively in an A8. I am in no discord with the developers' design intent- that's just what I like. What are member's opinions on this... Would an Eclair be worth it to a MIst owner or seem redundant? Would you prefer an XEL if you were to spend on new project hardware?

[foft]

The Eclaire and mist are basically the same.

 

Pros of mist: other system cores

Pros of eclaire: ports(pots, light gun, sio, cartridge, pbi), more block ram(faster turbo), hdmi, svideo/composite

 

Ive not released any core updates for mist for a while, but do plan to eventually backport some of the fixes.

[foft]

On your original question of the comparison, would live to see such an article. Even better in Excel, Abbuc magazine or proc atari:)

[P1r]

Has anyone done a comparison of the Eclair project with other FPGA solutions like MIst or MIster? I heard the core developer is the same on both. I'm excited for all new Atari projects and products but have several original Atari 8-bits, and a MIst. I may create a USB 800xl since none of the new projects fit natively in an A8. I am in no discord with the developers' design intent- that's just what I like. What are member's opinions on this... Would an Eclair be worth it to a MIst owner or seem redundant? Would you prefer an XEL if you were to spend on new project hardware?

 

 

I'm not a fan of the generic mini-itx boxes but realise the pros of keeping to a standard. I'm hugely envious of the Sinclair fans who got the Spectrum Next and would easily jump on a Kickstarterproject that did the same with the Atari 8-bit line. Given all these great projects you mention, there really only is need for a nicely designed box that would fit in with the old XL and/or XE lines ...

Edited December 26, 2017 by P1r

[+mytek]

 

 

I'm not a fan of the generic mini-itx boxes but realise the pros of keeping to a standard. I'm hugely envious of the Sinclair fans who got the Spectrum Next and would easily jump on a Kickstarterproject that did the same with the Atari 8-bit line. Given all these great projects you mention, there really only is need for a nicely designed box that would fit in with the old XL and/or XE lines ...

 

Not sure how to interpret this. Are you saying that anything not in a stock or re-make of stock case is really worth doing?

[P1r]

 

Not sure how to interpret this. Are you saying that anything not in a stock or re-make of stock case is really worth doing?

 

 

Ah, sorry, no not at all. I'll definitely be buying an Éclaire anyway, but a remake case would be a fantastic bonus. And since several projects are using the mini ITX standard, I'm hoping there's an industrial designer out there that would fancy doing an Atari 8-bit look-a-like mini ITX case.

[+mytek]

Ah, sorry, no not at all. I'll definitely be buying an Éclaire anyway, but a remake case would be a fantastic bonus. And since several projects are using the mini ITX standard, I'm hoping there's an industrial designer out there that would fancy doing an Atari 8-bit look-a-like mini ITX case.

Understood

 

Yep I would love to see some custom cases come out of these projects? I started a topic about such a couple weeks back, and I'm hoping to see some future posts of custom stuff people have been working on. So far there is one that was done based on the 400/800 era color scheme that really came out fantastic.

 

http://atariage.com/forums/topic/272643-cases-for-the-mini-itx-based-atari-8-bit-motherboards/

[+Larry]

Hope the PBI comes to fruition. I really like the idea of being able to plug real hardware into the Eclaire, and I've been a fan of hard drives since the original MIO and Black Box. However, in Turbo mode, APE should be very impressive. (It is on bob1200xl's XL14.)

-Larry

[Level42]

Fantastic project....

 

A few things come to mind for me:

 

1) since you fully integrate the VLSI chips into the FPGA, have you thought about producing dedicated FPGA (or CPLD, ow whatever technology) POKEY, ANTIC etc. chip replacements that can be put into the corresponding sockets on original hardware ? Especially the price of POKEYs have risen quite a bit over the last couple of years and it's a simple matter of logic that they will never be going down again.... replacements would help keeping running the original hardware

 

2) I fully understand going with the mini ITX format PCB for desktop use, but there is a lot.....and I mean a LOT of "wasted" PCB space....have you considered creating a PCB that is as small as possible for portable applications ? If there is anything I would love to have it would be a Lynx style Atari 8 bit to carry around all the time. Some ports could even be left off to save even more space, like the PBI, SIO...it would be purely be aimed at running games using SD card and driving a small LCD screen. If there's anything such a device would need it would be dedicated option, select, start keys and a second "fire button" which is hard connected as the space bar.

[foft]

Hope the PBI comes to fruition. I really like the idea of being able to plug real hardware into the Eclaire, and I've been a fan of hard drives since the original MIO and Black Box. However, in Turbo mode, APE should be very impressive. (It is on bob1200xl's XL14.)

-Larry

The pbi works well now. I have tested syscheck 2, turbo freezer and a 1064(bit pointless!). Ive been promised an mio.

[foft]

To answer level42.

 

1) Replacement VLSI chips: Yes I plan to do so, if no-one beats me to it. I was thinking of using the ultra small 36 pin max10 chips + a level converter + mux.

2) There are many fpga boards without the ports. The most minimal is the mcctv. It has composite, micro sd and two USB ports. For a playable handheld its emulator territory. Atari800 has been ported to almost every handheld.

[+mytek]

Be nice to do them as dual Pokey's, with addressing that would let two of them be dropped into an existing Dual Pokey Stereo board, giving you 8 voices per channel, or a single one to be used to give 8 voices on a stock machine.

 

At $20 per Pokey as the going rate, and a limit of one per order, I think the time is long overdue for a replacement.

[foft]

Be hard to beat $20! Perhaps it could be competetive for stereo, definitely would be competitive for quad!

[Level42]

To answer level42.

1) Replacement VLSI chips: Yes I plan to do so, if no-one beats me to it. I was thinking of using the ultra small 36 pin max10 chips + a level converter + mux.

2) There are many fpga boards without the ports. The most minimal is the mcctv. It has composite, micro sd and two USB ports. For a playable handheld its emulator territory. Atari800 has been ported to almost every handheld.

1) yeaaaaaahhhhh !!!

 

2) nooooooooohhh ;(

 

I don't like emulators other than just do a quick test of something I downloaded. Besides, AFAIK the emulators on those aren't very good for the A8. Oh wel.....I'll buy your chipset and design my own PCB :)

[ijor]

1) Replacement VLSI chips: Yes I plan to do so, if no-one beats me to it. I was thinking of using the ultra small 36 pin max10 chips + a level converter + mux.

 

Interesting. Mostly out of curiosity, are you planning "true" replacements with Pokey analog output and GTIA color oscillator? Or with sound and video only digital (which would require then a custom output)?