Why isn't there STILL a good way of getting VGA output from the C64?

[motrucker]

If you use the Viewsonic, NextVision N6 and have lost your remote, they are available from time to time on ebay;

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Viewsonic-NextVision-N6-HD-VideoProcessor-Remote-/152506999418?hash=item238220227a:g:ungAAOSwrddY7RiF

 

I still have not seen any video device that can compare to this unit's output to any LCD/LED display we have tested it on. It may not be cheap, but it really works quite well with a C-64.

 

 

 

 

[eightbit]

Here is a video where C64 to VGA was obtained. There is a link to where the modded S video cable is made. If someone could combine these things into a neat little box they would have many sales I am sure!

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hU-Sz3fqyVU

 

 

Tried it, with a few of the same cheap VGA adapters. It works, but you get a bad rainbow band on the top of the screen. I have no idea how any of these youtubers got it to work right.

[TMR]

Tried it, with a few of the same cheap VGA adapters. It works, but you get a bad rainbow band on the top of the screen. I have no idea how any of these youtubers got it to work right.

By lucking out and getting a set of innards that works; like i said, there's more than one variation but they're all packaged in the same shell so telling one from the other before ordering is pretty much impossible.

 

In your specific case, the video is showing a PAL C64 and i'm assuming from your location that yours is NTSC which could make a difference even with the same innards in the upscaler?

[eslapion]

The short answer to the OP question is quite straightforward; because it's tough!

 

For one thing, the output from the VIC-II is about the same as S-Video. That is, it is an analog signal with a 15kHz scan rate and color encoding based on the phase shifting of a specific frequency signal.

 

One could say the Flickerfixer converts the Amiga video signal to VGA and it's quite simple by today's electronics standard. Well, internally, the Amiga outputs video in the form of a 12 bit digital signal (RGB with 4 bit per color) with separate vertical and horizontal sync signals. Capturing this information, putting it into high speed RAM and then "playing" it back at twice the speed is easy in terms of digital technology.

 

The C64 as well as the VIC-20 both lack the digital information and going to VGA involves converting luma, chroma and sync signals that are all jumbled together, into RGB digital information and then double the scan rate. This is no easy feat.

 

It's the same as converting the output of an S-VHS VCR into VGA. You also have the added problem that the C64's video signal isn't exactly standard so even if you have a machine that can convert a VCR's output to VGA, you have have junk all over the place.

 

I too have the Nextvision N6, I love it but it is out of production.

 

I suppose nowadays, you're more likely to look for an S-Video to HDMI converter and the compatibility problem remains the same.

[CatPix]

the RGB enabled PPU on the NES otherwise is identical to what's there. Of course a system that from the start produces or is possible to obtain a RGB signal will be far easier to get VGA from.

 

If you think about the TimRGB NES PPU, there is one game that use a special trick that won't render the trick with the TimRGB PPU. So it's 99,99% compatible since only one game seems to do that.

For RGB, "SECAM" C64 output RGB. Tho I have to look for, because from what I recall, one version was, like the NES, a PAL version with a PAL-to-RGB card glued in the case, and a second version was made by Commodore, with better integration of the video, but this time, SECAM encoding removed, making the UHF and composite connection black and white.

 

From what I get, Procep also sold RGB-modified PAL C64. I dunno yet if those were sold in Europe, of if they imply stopped making the SECAM modification and simply made a RGB connection for the French market (law here required video devices to have RGB or SECAM video out, but not both - it's why only a very few system sold in France actually have SECAM - any system after 1985 called SECAM is an abuse of the word; Sega might have written in error message "SECAM Megadrive", French Megadrive for example output RGB and... nothing, not even black and white composite).

 

[carlsson]

My friend Jan in Germany described the RGB board for the C64 to output a much worse image (though RGB) than what you get from composite video, possibly worse than RF even. If there were multiple solutions, one might have produced better results than others. I think this has been discussed on the cbm-hackers mailing list in the past. Generally I don't think there is much to gain from there in order to make a VGA solution, not more than the existing S-Video to VGA converters with modern technology might achieve.

[CatPix]

There are some discussion about the Procep modification on French forums, but not a lot. The issues I read are more related to color fidelity than overall look.

It's likely that like the French NES, a PAL to RGB conversion is goign to produced a worse picture that straight composite use. But worse than RF sounds unlikely.

The SECAM version are affected too since the board do PAL>RGB>SECAM, so you get the artifact from PAL and SECAM

Apparently the "better" boards are the ones with the rainbow sticker (the PAL and RGB) but I haven't seen one working IRL so I cant confirm nor deny this.

 

I guess that the TIMRGB solution will be the best option, which use the original chip for better fidelity, and recreate just the video part, and output to RGB. So in case of problem, the original composite video out from the original chip can stil be used if one desire so.

Edited May 16, 2017 by CatPix

[ApolloBoy]

I guess that the TIMRGB solution will be the best option

NESRGB actually. I think that'd be the best option to get RGB or VGA from a C64 and it boggles my mind that nobody's even tackled a project like this. An S-video to VGA converter doesn't improve video quality and a Turbo Chameleon is ridiculously overpriced in addition to being ridiculously overpowered.

[+remowilliams]

RGB would be nice, but I'll 'settle' for my current video quality

 

 

[carlsson]

Does the NES PPU share its memory with the CPU like on the C64, or does it have its own memory? I understand the NESRGB goes between the board and the PPU, and it intercepts some signals. Since the VIC-II shares the memory with the CPU, causing all those badlines, I'm not sure technically the same kind of solution is possible. Then again I am not a hardware expert.

[R.Cade]

I have cheap s-video and composite adapters that work, but it introduces a delay (worse than emulation) and is fuzzy due to it not being the native size of most LCD displays. It may look better on a CRT VGA monitor, but I have no reason to do that since I have real Sony PVM's and the native s-video looks great on it.

 

If you must use an LCD, you may as well just emulate...

[+remowilliams]

If you must use an LCD, you may as well just emulate...

 

 

Me and my XRGB-mini say otherwise...

[R.Cade]

 

 

Me and my XRGB-mini say otherwise...

I'm sure it has a nice display, but there is no delay between the S-VIDEO->XRGB->HDMI TV?

Edited May 19, 2017 by R.Cade