Mega Man II - Dr. Wily's Stage 1/2 (Atari POKEY Chiptune Cover) [NTSC]

[Fragmare]

Spent most of this afternoon working on another POKEY cover. It's Wily's Castle from NES Mega Man II! XEX file attached.

 

http://youtu.be/xW5QWhV7quI

 

 

 

 

Wilys_Castle_POKEY01b.xex

[+MrFish]

Sounds good again. I like the percussion.

 

Sounds like you might be getting some note cancellation, which should be avoidable (although I don't recall exactly how you correct it).

 

Since you're into NES stuff, you might be interested in an attempt made a couple of years ago by user andym00 to emulate some sounds of the NES on the Atari.

 

Here are some of his example tunes.

 

Megavania 2.xex

 

First Follin Cover (DLI).xex

 

Meckzjoinskonami (ANTIC, Stable).xex

 

Silver Surfer.xex

 

There's a thread on here somewhere too, in which he gives details about how he achieved it and what it's capable of, etc.

Edited April 28, 2017 by MrFish

[emkay]

 

This one is rather interesting. Could you release the RMT file, please?

In that way, you won't get rid of the cancelling. But it's possible to make it even more NES sounding like.

[Fragmare]

Sounds good again. I like the percussion.

 

Sounds like you might be getting some note cancellation, which should be avoidable (although I don't recall exactly how you correct it).

 

Since you're into NES stuff, you might be interested in an attempt made a couple of years ago by user andym00 to emulate some sounds of the NES on the Atari.

 

Here are some of his example tunes.

 

Megavania 2.xex

 

First Follin Cover (DLI).xex

 

Meckzjoinskonami (ANTIC, Stable).xex

 

Silver Surfer.xex

 

There's a thread on here somewhere too, in which he gives details about how he achieved it and what's capable of, etc.

 

 

Thanks! And, yes! I'm definitely experiencing some note cancellation on the sustained parts. I'd love to know how to correct that, if you or anyone here could point me in the right direction, it would be greatly appreciated!

 

Wow, those are some insane sounds coming out of the POKEY. Thanks for those! I'm already learning it's capable of a LOT more than most people give it credit for. The various distortion controls are incredible for white-ish noise generation and PSG percussion.

 

 

 

This one is rather interesting. Could you release the RMT file, please?

In that way, you won't get rid of the cancelling. But it's possible to make it even more NES sounding like.

 

Sure, I'll attach it to this reply. What did you have in mind?

Wilys_Castle_POKEY01b.zip

Edited April 28, 2017 by Fragmare

[+MrFish]

Since you're into NES stuff, you might be interested in an attempt made a couple of years ago by user andym00 to emulate some sounds of the NES on the Atari.

 

Here are some of his example tunes.

 

[Example Files]

 

I should mention too, that although these will work on either NTSC or PAL and (I think) play at the same speeds, some of the graphics will misbehave on NTSC, since he did the coding on PAL.

[Fragmare]

 

I should mention too, that although these will work on either NTSC or PAL and (I think) play at the same speeds, some of the graphics will misbehave on NTSC, since he did the coding on PAL.

 

Yea, I noticed the graphical glitches. I just chalked it up to the emulator I am using.

[+MrFish]

Here a couple more from andym00:

 

Target Renegade.xex

 

Pac-Follin (ANTIC, Stable).xex

 

 

Also, if you're interested in other chip emulations for the Atari, there is this project to emulate SID.

These tunes will also play on NTSC, but the play speeds are optimized for PAL.

 

Atarisid VI

 

 

[+MrFish]

Wow, those are some insane sounds coming out of the POKEY. Thanks for those! I'm already learning it's capable of a LOT more than most people give it credit for. The various distortion controls are incredible for white-ish noise generation and PSG percussion.

 

Check out this cool digitization by AA user phaeron:

PWM Music.xex

 

The Atari's can also make music with their GTIA chip:

GTIA Beepers

 

Pretty cool for a video chip

 

[+MrFish]

There's also this by AA user AnalMux, that was created with a hacked/patched version of RMT (which can be found on these forums).

 

Instrumentarium.xex

 

[+Stephen]

Sounds good again. I like the percussion.

 

Sounds like you might be getting some note cancellation, which should be avoidable (although I don't recall exactly how you correct it).

 

Since you're into NES stuff, you might be interested in an attempt made a couple of years ago by user andym00 to emulate some sounds of the NES on the Atari.

 

Here are some of his example tunes.

 

Megavania 2.xex

 

First Follin Cover (DLI).xex

 

Meckzjoinskonami (ANTIC, Stable).xex

 

Silver Surfer.xex

 

There's a thread on here somewhere too, in which he gives details about how he achieved it and what it's capable of, etc.

Wow - I don't remember any of this!

[+MrFish]

Wow - I don't remember any of this!

 

It's all in this thread: Interesting

 

He links to some source code in the same thread.

[+MrFish]

Yea, I noticed the graphical glitches. I just chalked it up to the emulator I am using.

 

Speaking of emulators, you'll probably need Altirra to properly listen to the andym00 stuff.

[+CharlieChaplin]

There is also the "Atari VGM player" by Norbert Kehrer which can convert (PC tool) and then playback (A8 tool) Sega Master System / Sega Game Gear sounds on an Atari 8Bit:

 

http://chipmusic.org/forums/topic/3252/vgm-player-for-atari-800/

or:

http://abbuc.de/~bunsen/VGMPlay.html

or:

https://demozoo.org/sceners/44563/

 

Strange, I visited N.Kehrer`s homepage and could not find it there...

[+MrFish]

There is also the "Atari VGM player" by Norbert Kehrer which can convert (PC tool) and then playback (A8 tool) Sega Master System / Sega Game Gear sounds on an Atari 8Bit:

 

http://chipmusic.org/forums/topic/3252/vgm-player-for-atari-800/

or:

http://abbuc.de/~bunsen/VGMPlay.html

or:

https://demozoo.org/sceners/44563/

 

Strange, I visited N.Kehrer`s homepage and could not find it there...

 

The results aren't very impressive though...

 

[Edit] Examples

 

VGM2ATR.zip

 

Edited April 28, 2017 by MrFish

[emkay]

Some of the cancelling is caused by Altirra itself.

Removing of the cancelling in RMT isn't fully possible, but it can get a "face" of a muted guitar.

 

 

Youtube nagging "copyright" again ....

 

 

Edited April 28, 2017 by emkay

[Fragmare]

 

Speaking of emulators, you'll probably need Altirra to properly listen to the andym00 stuff.

 

Wow, that's a lot of stuff to check out! Awesome, i'll have a listen later tonight. Yea, I'm using Altirra currently.

 

 

Some of the cancelling is caused by Altirra itself.

Removing of the cancelling in RMT isn't fully possible, but it can get a "face" of a muted guitar.

 

Nice version!

 

Hmm, so on real hardware you wouldn't get so much cancelling? What do you mean by a "face" of a muted guitar? I know if use vibrato on one channel, but not the other, that will get rid of it or at least lessen it to where i don't notice it.

[emkay]

Wow, that's a lot of stuff to check out! Awesome, i'll have a listen later tonight. Yea, I'm using Altirra currently.

While your - very nice - approach is based on real useful tech , most of those other "examples" use too much CPU for the "effort" they offer. Some stuff sounds nice and great, but is in no way useful for ingame or even coloful title screens.

 

Nice version!

Check it out. Do you know about the max. volume allowed on all 4 channels? The summary should not exceed 32

 

Wilys_Castle_POKEY01m.zip

 

Hmm, so on real hardware you wouldn't get so much cancelling? What do you mean by a "face" of a muted guitar? I know if use vibrato on one channel, but not the other, that will get rid of it or at least lessen it to where i don't notice it.

The real hardware has problems with cancelling, due to the uncrontrollable shift of the different produced waves. If you chose to use "filter" , you get some control over it.

 

Altirra also has timing problems , as the "wave-forming" varies ...

Edited April 28, 2017 by emkay

[+MrFish]

While your - very nice - approach is based on real useful tech , most of those other "examples" use too much CPU for the "effort" they offer. Some stuff sounds nice and great, but is in no way useful for ingame or even coloful title screens.

 

The vast amount of music created in RMT -- or any other tracker for the Ataris -- ends up in no game whatsoever. So these techniques are equally as useful for showing what types of musical sounds the system is capable of producing.

 

In-game music is a worthy goal, but as you know, there is still much to be attained, and "hard synths" aren't the only viable method for getting there. You've even stated yourself before, that some combination of techniques may be the only way of getting around certain problem areas for POKEY in music creation. Also, all games need not be hi-res, mega-color, sprite-multiplexing super shooters. There are game types with much lower CPU requirements, that are still worthy of being developed.

 

Title screens also need not always be filled with many DLI color and PM setting changes in order to be colorful and suitably well done. Many can be quite low on CPU usage in attaining what's desired.

Edited April 29, 2017 by MrFish

[emkay]

The vast amount of music created in RMT -- or any other tracker for the Ataris -- ends up in no game whatsoever. So these techniques are equally as useful for showing what types of musical sounds the system is capable of producing.

 

In-game music is a worthy goal, but as you know, there is still much to be attained, and "hard synths" aren't the only viable method for getting there. You've even stated yourself before, that some combination of techniques may be the only way of getting around certain problem areas for POKEY in music creation. Also, all games need not be hi-res, mega-color, sprite-multiplexing super shooters. There are game types with much lower CPU requirements, that are still worthy of being developed.

 

Title screens also need not always be filled with many DLI color and PM setting changes in order to be colorful and suitably well done. Many can be quite low on CPU usage in attaining what's desired.

 

Which of your concepts were actually working for your concepts?

You brought "40 years" of Atari into one post. Nice

 

Actually, even a "duelling game" with 2 moving objects in GR. 2 would interfere most of your posted "projects", while still most Games and Demos use weird POKEY stuff, just caused by the faulty Soundtools.

And, yes, It's all about a mixed tool for programmed sounds (Hard-Synth) and digitized sounds, where POKEY has it's flaws (software) , fitting to the aimed project and the available CPU time.

That's why Atari Blast with it's massive and smooth moving and smooth animated objects does well with 3 channels at 64kHz, and a 15kHz sampled tune needs a black screen to sound good...

[Fragmare]

While your - very nice - approach is based on real useful tech , most of those other "examples" use too much CPU for the "effort" they offer. Some stuff sounds nice and great, but is in no way useful for ingame or even coloful title screens.

 

 

Check it out. Do you know about the max. volume allowed on all 4 channels? The summary should not exceed 32

 

Wilys_Castle_POKEY01m.zip

 

 

The real hardware has problems with cancelling, due to the uncrontrollable shift of the different produced waves. If you chose to use "filter" , you get some control over it.

 

Altirra also has timing problems , as the "wave-forming" varies ...

 

 

I did not know the thing about the max volume! Thanks for pointing that out! Wow... so, let's say all 4 channels are at [0F] max volume, totaling 64... would the chip just severely clip the output or cut something out?

 

Also, I like your edit! Very nice. I'm just starting out on the POKEY and my knowledge of the chip's abilities are pretty limited. I know the HuC6280 pretty well, but I couldn't tell you jack about what the POKEY can or can't do. I am more or less just trial and error'ing my through the tracker and these tunes.

 

Ah, yea, I figured most emulators wouldn't be "true" sounding. A few emulators out there for other systems come REALLY close to the original system in terms of sound. Mednafen being one such example for the PC-Engine. Is there a particular POKEY emulator that is considered the "gold standard" for sound emulation accuracy?

[emkay]

I did not know the thing about the max volume! Thanks for pointing that out! Wow... so, let's say all 4 channels are at [0F] max volume, totaling 64... would the chip just severely clip the output or cut something out?

It ends up in unwanted distorsions. All channels have a direct "physical depending". So the wave of one channel adds directly to the other.

 

Also, I like your edit! Very nice. I'm just starting out on the POKEY and my knowledge of the chip's abilities are pretty limited. I know the HuC6280 pretty well, but I couldn't tell you jack about what the POKEY can or can't do. I am more or less just trial and error'ing my through the tracker and these tunes.

The preset of RMT might be good for people who know about POKEY but for people "from outside" things can easily screw up.

 

 

Ah, yea, I figured most emulators wouldn't be "true" sounding. A few emulators out there for other systems come REALLY close to the original system in terms of sound. Mednafen being one such example for the PC-Engine. Is there a particular POKEY emulator that is considered the "gold standard" for sound emulation accuracy?

The emulators sound all "typically POKEY" but there are differences in the base clocking in NTSC and PAL.

To get rid of many problems, some tricks can be used, like that "Filter correction" to control the cancelling effect. There exist timing problems in all emulations, that don't exist on the real thing. The most stable one is the "asap" plug in for Winamp.

 

Then there are smaller problems with the volume, as POKEY tends to sound a lot louder with high tones. And the distortion is missing in most emulations. Altirra has the "non-linear" channel mixing. Which is also "over".

Edited April 30, 2017 by emkay

[+MrFish]

Which of your concepts were actually working for your concepts?

 

Can you be a little bit more specific? I'm not sure exactly what you're asking here, "concepts working for concepts?".

 

 

You brought "40 years" of Atari into one post. Nice

 

The 8-bit Atari computers have only been around for 38 years, but thanks for the compliment.

 

 

Actually, even a "duelling game" with 2 moving objects in GR. 2 would interfere most of your posted "projects", while still most Games and Demos use weird POKEY stuff, just caused by the faulty Soundtools.

 

Did I ever propose that any of the posted examples be used in any games or demos?

 

 

And, yes, It's all about a mixed tool for programmed sounds (Hard-Synth) and digitized sounds, where POKEY has it's flaws (software) , fitting to the aimed project and the available CPU time.

 

Then we're in agreement about the need to explore additional tech other than "hard synths".

[emkay]

Then we're in agreement about the need to explore additional tech other than "hard synths".

No. Because everything has been done to have "software created sound" already. But there is still no Tracker available, to save CPU cycles for music creating.

[Fragmare]

It ends up in unwanted distorsions. All channels have a direct "physical depending". So the wave of one channel adds directly to the other.

 

The preset of RMT might be good for people who know about POKEY but for people "from outside" things can easily screw up.

 

 

 

The emulators sound all "typically POKEY" but there are differences in the base clocking in NTSC and PAL.

To get rid of many problems, some tricks can be used, like that "Filter correction" to control the cancelling effect. There exist timing problems in all emulations, that don't exist on the real thing. The most stable one is the "asap" plug in for Winamp.

 

Then there are smaller problems with the volume, as POKEY tends to sound a lot louder with high tones. And the distortion is missing in most emulations. Altirra has the "non-linear" channel mixing. Which is also "over".

 

I downloaded ASAP, and it sounds great and has a LOT of plugins for various stuff. Doesn't seem to want to force 60Hz, though. the .RMT files all seem to be 50hz PAL natively, no matter how you compose the track... hmm

[+MrFish]

No. Because everything has been done to have "software created sound" already. But there is still no Tracker available, to save CPU cycles for music creating.

 

I think it's a little nearsighted to say that "everything" has been done with regards to creating sounds via software techniques.