New Atari Console that Ataribox?

[Flojomojo]

Can someone please explain to me what it is with these scammers schemers (that's nicer, right?) and "keeping the faith?"

 

Seriously, they just said, "Thanks to all the many wonderful backers remaining steadfast in your faith. You are why we did this and you are correct to be excited about the Atari VCS!"

 

 

All while the rest of the project, and most of the evidence, says plain as day, "The project team has a working demo, not the final product. Their ability to begin production may be affected by product development or financial challenges."

 

 

[+x=usr(1536)]

29 minutes ago, Flojomojo said:

As was an assertion that Fred Chesnais took home $1M/year in compensation, which would be more than 5% of the company's total revenue. Everyone was outraged, justifiably so, but the numbers don't quite add up in that way. 

 

Speculation: that's what Rob Wyatt told him, and he didn't look closely enough (those financial disclosures are hard to read, even when not written in French), but he edited it out upon being corrected. I'm sure Kieren would tell us straight up what happened if we asked him via email or Twitter. Or someone could ask Rob via his feedback form. These guys are out there and some of them must be willing to talk. 

Adding complexity to the mix is the fact that there are two Ataris - Atari SA and Atari Interactive.  It's possible that Fred's deriving compensation from both rather than just one of them.  I'm not enough of a tax attorney to understand why you might want to do this, but there may be some benefit to doing so.  It's also not clear to me if Atari Interactive reports through Atari SA, reports separately, or has no reporting requirement.

 

What this means is that this could also paint a different picture of the company's finances depending on what you're looking at, or who you're talking to.  Basically, the financial reports may not tell the whole story, so it's not terribly surprising that there may be after-the-fact revisions to aspects of the piece.

[Shaggy the Atarian]

10 minutes ago, Flojomojo said:

Can someone please explain to me what it is with these scammers and "keeping the faith?"

 

Seriously, they just said, "Thanks to all the many wonderful backers remaining steadfast in your faith. You are why we did this and you are correct to be excited about the Atari VCS!"

 

 

All while the rest of the project, and most of the evidence, says plain as day, "The project team has a working demo, not the final product. Their ability to begin production may be affected by product development or financial challenges."

 

"We've lost two of our prophets because we didn't bother to pay them, and we put heretics out into digital exile, but rest assured, we'll soon figure out how to make the AskPCB prototype do something more than turn some blinky lights on."

 

Otherwise, best analogy I can come up with is people being so emotionally invested in their sports franchise that they can't turn their backs on it or it is like admitting you are stupid. Atari SA is the Cincinnati Bengals of Atari owners, but because they used to be the Miami Dolphins(Warner Atari), they may perform again via invested hope and magic.

Edited October 10, 2019 by Shaggy the Atarian

[+x=usr(1536)]

40 minutes ago, ColecoJoe said:

You called?

 

PRETENDER!  USURPER!  FAKEITTY-FAKE-FAKE-FAKE!

 

[+TwentySixHundred]

43 minutes ago, Flojomojo said:

Nintendo owns the license to put things on their machine, but not the code. There have been plenty of Street Fighter and MegaMan games from Capcom that are clearly the SNES versions, but in different places. Here's the latest: 

 

 

After having a look at the games list on Antstream website im still a bit confused as to why they mention SNES and Megadrive. I can't find a single Nintendo or Sega game listed, everything is Arcade, c64 and Spectrum.

https://www.antstream.com/gameslist

[ColecoJoe]

 

 

https://www.theverge.com/2019/10/10/20907755/atari-vcs-troubled-development-architect-operating-system-crowdfunding-campaign

[Flojomojo]

24 minutes ago, x=usr(1536) said:

Adding complexity to the mix is the fact that there are two Ataris - Atari SA and Atari Interactive.  It's possible that Fred's deriving compensation from both rather than just one of them.  I'm not enough of a tax attorney to understand why you might want to do this, but there may be some benefit to doing so.  It's also not clear to me if Atari Interactive reports through Atari SA, reports separately, or has no reporting requirement.

 

What this means is that this could also paint a different picture of the company's finances depending on what you're looking at, or who you're talking to.  Basically, the financial reports may not tell the whole story, so it's not terribly surprising that there may be after-the-fact revisions to aspects of the piece.

Yeah, I don't fault Kieren at all. He's paying attention and sticking to facts, which is more than the subjects of his stories can say. 

 

I assume that splitting "Atari" into many lines is a hedge against any one sector dragging the whole thing down because of poor performance. On their front page, they have:

1. Atari Games (which I assume is Atari Interactive), 
2. Atari Casino ("The casino space presents a massive opportunity to leverage the portfolio of Atari properties through a range of social and real money casino opportunities")
3. Atari VCS (which I assume is Atari GameBox, LLC -- "game, stream, connect like never before")
4. Atari Partners ("Our brand is known worldwide and means much more than videogames. We believe we can exclusively impact the growth strategy of many start-up companies at the convergence of Entertainment, Digital Technology and Interactivity, by using our brand in a smart manner.")

I guess that's why le Fred is the boss and we aren't. 

 

[Flojomojo]

5 minutes ago, TwentySixHundred said:

After having a look at the games list on Antstream website im still a bit confused as to why they mention SNES and Megadrive. I can't find a single Nintendo or Sega game listed, everything is Arcade, c64 and Spectrum.

https://www.antstream.com/gameslist

I noticed that as well. They also said they expected "thousands" of games, so presumably they have some licensing deals in the works. The service hasn't launched in North America yet, maybe they're waiting until they have more to offer. There's no technical reason they couldn't stream SNES and Megadrive emulators just like the other things they have. 

 

Of course, one could also spend the $42.75 at that grocery store to get the AtGames Flashback Legends box pre-loaded with 100 titles, and an SD card full of ill-gotten perfectly legitimately sourced ROMs and do the same thing, for less money, offline. 

[jhd]

9 hours ago, lingyi said:

As for suing for payment. For many companies (and Wyatt almost did his work under a company name, probably Tin Giant), reputation and continued business with others is worth far more than money. Tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars may sound like a lot to most of us, but if it means no one will want to work with you because you've gained a reputation of suing for non-payment, it would be worth the loss. 

 

I've worked in accounting for a number of years for both small and large companies. I've had vendors refuse to offer goods and even threaten to sue for late payments, but as soon as partial payment was made, all was good again. It's just the nature or business. Better to work with a slow paying company, than not have any business at all. 

 

I once worked for an academic organization that employed an external contractor to develop a project. My main role was to oversee the development of that project. There were some delays for various reasons -- nothing major or insurmountable. The director of the organization decided to get more involved in this project. At her first meeting with the external contractors, she threatened to sue them if the deadline was missed. That did just wonders for the working relationship that we had carefully established. Sigh.

 

I left for another job shortly thereafter so, sadly, I do not know how this tale ends.  

[Flojomojo]

22 minutes ago, ColecoJoe said:

https://www.theverge.com/2019/10/10/20907755/atari-vcs-troubled-development-architect-operating-system-crowdfunding-campaign

Wow, that's a very mainstream US consumer tech site, not the "edgy" UK voice that is The Register. The article is basically a recap of Kieren's piece, with some of Atari's weaksauce updates along for seasoning. 

 

Once again, "Atari" looks really weak for letting themselves get played so badly, first with Feargal, now with Wyatt. Even if Rob wasn't doing anything and was essentially let go for failing to deliver, that's not the public story that's being told. It's probably bad enough (does the S in VCS stand for "shitshow?") that nobody wants the real story to get out.

 

Ahem, non-disclosure agreements are still in effect, and Atari therefore hereby reserves its rights in that respect. Harumph, what what? Herefore thereby. 

 

The comments are already off to a good start and I therefore hereby reserve my rights in that respect. 

Quote

This shambling corporate creature wearing the flayed skin of the Atari I remember needs badly to be put down.

 

 

 

[DurradonXylles]

9 minutes ago, Flojomojo said:

Wow, that's a very mainstream US consumer tech site, not the "edgy" UK voice that is The Register. The article is basically a recap of Kieren's piece, with some of Atari's weaksauce updates along for seasoning. 

 

Once again, "Atari" looks really weak for letting themselves get played so badly, first with Feargal, now with Wyatt. Even if Rob wasn't doing anything and was essentially let go for failing to deliver, that's not the public story that's being told. It's probably bad enough (does the S in VCS stand for "shitshow?") that nobody wants the real story to get out.

 

Ahem, non-disclosure agreements are still in effect, and Atari therefore hereby reserves its rights in that respect. Harumph, what what? Herefore thereby. 

 

The comments are already off to a good start and I therefore hereby reserve my rights in that respect. 

 

 

Out of all of the news aggregators on the web, the Verge is among the ones I like the least. They tend to sugarcoat everything they report on even if it's something that isn't alleged and is outright terrible, provide nothing of real value to the articles the copy-paste and slightly alter as to fit with the "can I copy your homework" meme, they showed how terribly inept they are with the concepts they report on since they're the people behind that awful PC build video everyone tore into and meme'd last year, and subsequently tried to take down all of the videos criticizing them on YouTube over it because they can't be challenged. At least the comments beneath are being more realistic and are taking a firmer view on the situation than the guy who, I generously say, wrote the article for clicks.

Edited October 10, 2019 by DurradonXylles
OCD and added link for posterity

[Flojomojo]

1 hour ago, Shaggy the Atarian said:

The walls are closing in! Just like Atari's next big announcement!Stay tuned!

 

[Flojomojo]

5 hours ago, Tickled_Pink said:

If I was a shareholder, I'd be punching Russell in the head.

I would punch his lunch ticket. With love. And give him some extra fries and a "have a nice day, hon!"

 

I suggest being be careful with our words and leaving violence out of it. The dingdongs in the [athletic] supporters group are clearly frustrated, and [jock] itching for a fight. Let's not give them what they want. It's more fun that way. 

[Lodmot]

Oh shet. I just left a comment in the indiegogo page (for the first time in several months). Will I get trampled by VCS supporters? o w o

Edited October 10, 2019 by Lodmot

[ColecoJoe]

1 minute ago, Lodmot said:

Oh shet. I just left a comment in the indiegogo page. Will I get trampled by VCS supporters? o w o

Haven't you learned by now Lod? Screencaps or it never happened!

[Lodmot]

 

> u > Lol.

[Flojomojo]

5 minutes ago, Lodmot said:

Will I get trampled by VCS supporters? o w o

Both of them?

[+frankodragon]

1 hour ago, Flojomojo said:

Yeah, I don't fault Kieren at all. He's paying attention and sticking to facts, which is more than the subjects of his stories can say. 

 

I assume that splitting "Atari" into many lines is a hedge against any one sector dragging the whole thing down because of poor performance. On their front page, they have:

1. Atari Games (which I assume is Atari Interactive), 
2. Atari Casino ("The casino space presents a massive opportunity to leverage the portfolio of Atari properties through a range of social and real money casino opportunities")
3. Atari VCS (which I assume is Atari GameBox, LLC -- "game, stream, connect like never before")
4. Atari Partners ("Our brand is known worldwide and means much more than videogames. We believe we can exclusively impact the growth strategy of many start-up companies at the convergence of Entertainment, Digital Technology and Interactivity, by using our brand in a smart manner.")

I guess that's why le Fred is the boss and we aren't. 

 

This is where Fred must get his ideas:  https://www.atrixnet.com/bs-generator.html

[Phantom_of_Krankor]

I was banned from the official subreddit for repeating their words crafting an update back to them but putting it in quotations.

[Lodmot]

Just now, Phantom_of_Krankor said:

I was banned from the official subreddit for repeating their words crafting an update back to them but putting it in quotations.

 

Whaaaaat theeeee........ o u o 

[PlaysWithWolves]

3 hours ago, Flojomojo said:

Can someone please explain to me what it is with these scammers schemers (that's nicer, right?) and "keeping the faith?"

 

Seriously, they just said, "Thanks to all the many wonderful backers remaining steadfast in your faith. You are why we did this and you are correct to be excited about the Atari VCS!"

 

 

 

 

 

Oh I think Faith may be fitting if Atari is like a bad girlfriend:

 

 

 

 

 

[MrBeefy]

 

Mother boards and cooling really...well you know...

[Phantom_of_Krankor]

Keep the faith

Edited October 10, 2019 by Phantom_of_Krankor

[Lodmot]

28 minutes ago, Phantom_of_Krankor said:

Keep the faith

Omg xDDD

I remember watching a documentary about that... Soooo creepy. x w x

http://www.heavensgate.com/

 

 

[DurradonXylles]

On 10/9/2019 at 8:18 AM, Flojomojo said:

It pains me to say it, but "PowerDubs" and "AtariArtist" (ugh) on Reddit are saying some stuff that I agree with. They're throwing Rob Wyatt under the bus for non-delivery, which certainly lines up with what we could reasonably expect from him, when looking at his public persona and recent behavior.

 

We're definitely not getting the whole story from anyone, though. "Atari" just wants to keep everything private, while assuring everyone that things are humming along just fine. If "Atari" can really afford Surfaceink, they might be able to deliver something. As we've said before, if Atari could match the delivery experience of Ouya (which Surfaceink worked on), that's better than they deserve. Ouya launched on time and under budget, with a retail presence and a store full of content, AND become an internet joke and the poster child for bad crowdfunding. 

 

Something about this doesn't add up. It would be interesting to hear the rest of the story. From Kieren's story:

So which is it? Were Rob and friends diligently working on this without pay for 6 months? Or were they hung up by "Atari" delaying delivery of prototype motherboards? I strongly suspect Rob "Broken Femur from Skydiving" Wyatt was slow and ineffective, AND not being held to the schedule by Michael "Let's Make Netflix for Mom" Arzt, with plenty of unnamed and unsung fsckups before, during, and after the events of Keiren's reporting. 

 

Feargal's payout would suggest there's more money in lawsuits than in product development where "Atari" is concerned. 

 

This is something that's been legitimately bothering me since this point was brought up on one of the Discord servers I belong to following Atari SA, Fred Chesnais and the VCStacoBox: El Reg said in their most recent article that Atari will likely be handing the hardware over to SurfaceInk for completion since they had also contracted them. The problem with this claim is that SurfaceInk has a list of corporate clients they proudly display on their site, even if their working relationship is as small as consulting, and Atari's not on it. "Maybe they aren't as marketable as Apple, Qualcomm, Dolby, Intel or Microsoft," I could hear someone say. That's a fair point, but they show Leap Frog, Orb, Palm, Sun Microsystems, and even the OUYA (basically brands that are either dead, lost most of their relevance or weren't relevant to begin with). It seems to me that Atari hasn't been added to this list of clients for whatever reason, and while I could say it might be because of laziness or simply forgetting to update the page, a name like Atari, regardless of recent infamy, would only add legitimacy for a company like SurfaceInk.

 

The fact that they haven't responded to El Reg's question about their supposed contract with Atari SA/Atari Gamebox LLC on top of not showing off the logo on their clientele page leads me to believe that someone close to Atari was told that they were going to contract SurfaceInk and that info got hastily passed along as fact. Not saying the Register is wrong or untruthful, just that they're going with what their sources told them.

 

Even if we assume that the Register wasn't mistaken or had a source that jumped the gun, and/or Atari is still negotiating a contract with SurfaceInk, there's this little problem:

21 hours ago, vcoleiro1 said:

In regards to developing a pcb which uses an AMD embedded chip.
I can't say too much about it, but let's just say everyone that has tried to do it , has ended up pulling their hair out.

According to one CEO I spoke to , who is developing an AMD Embedded product.   AMD provide almost zero support for their embedded chips.  And also basically zero reference designs.  And their driver support for it is poor to boot
And there are issues that everyone who has developed using embedded, have run into.

In fact, in regards to the well respected company I'm talking about (but cannot name), they have worked on it for a solid year now, and there pcb still has issues.

Expect dual channel issues and other memory  issues.   Power management may also be an issue. But they are lucky it's not battery powered.


The story is the same with everyone that has touched it.


So don't expect them to debug that pcb in a hurry
 

 

I've known about the major issues with developing upon the Ryzen Embedded chipset for a while, mainly with the likes of Smach and GPD, but yeah it's like @vcoleiro1 says: AMD is offering no support for embedded chipsets at this time. No support, no in-depth references or paperwork beyond general outlines, and barely enough driver support to boot Windows without address errors out the wazoo or constant BSODs. Smach, another scammy company I've been following for some time, has barely been able to get Windows 10 to work on their showroom demos of their "Smach Z" handhelds, and cannot get Vulkan to work on highly optimized games like Doom 2016 without crashing to desktop or blue screening. GPD is using a Ryzen Embedded for their next iterations of the GPD Win handheld, and apparently they've been having more success in developing the proper drivers and finding out how much performance they can actually get out of them, but it's still an uphill battle as far as I've heard. I don't understand why AMD is making all of these partnerships with companies to make boards and devices with their still-new chipset but not offer any support. It's almost like AMD is using these companies and projects as guinea pigs to collect real world performance benchmarks for future iterations of their chipsets, which would make sense with the last point. But for now:

On 9/30/2019 at 9:11 PM, Tidus79001 said:

The specs on the Atari VCS blow away any of the Raspberry Pi models.   My reasons as stated above and the better specs on the Atari VCS make Raspberry Pi a very unappealing alternative.

 

On 10/2/2019 at 2:40 AM, Spriggy said:

 

 

Tidus, if I may make an observation and ask some questions?  Just honestly shooting the shit, as I'm genuinely curious to hear from certain backers perspectives (such as your own).   I'm obviously covering ground that has been flogged to death on our thread, but it's needed to answer my simple queries.

 

Your stating you want the VCS for retro gaming and to be more powerfull that a Pi.  Great.  Do you own a laptop?  If not, then my answer won't be as relevant as what I'm enquiring, however still could be.  If you do, why don't you just HDMI plug your lappy into your TV, set it up with any OS you like, then set-up all your retro emulators to your hearts content.  By a USB to DB9 adapater (as an adapter example.  Not expensive) and use original controllers for an original feel.  Or, buy a good quality retro styled bluetooth gamepad, like the awesome 8bitdo N30 or F30 pro's.  More powerfull and a completely open ended (sandbox) set-up, without spending $300 on the VCS.

If you don't have a laptop, again you can get some kickass little lappys for $300 and under, which again would be better than what Atari SA are stating, at this time.  Oh, and upgradeable.

I could maybe understand getting the "unconsole", if it was a console competing with the other big boys and had exclusives, including the other niceties and niches of the big consoles, but for a use to play retro games is just so confusing.  Did you expect more from the Atacobox VCS, but have now resigned to the fact that it's not, so you'll just use it for retro fillanderings?

 

With that in mind, surely you can understand why this thread is 850+ pages.  If the VCS was real (after 2 years), running , showing huge potential, with exclusives and something different to other systems or at least on par or more ... this thread may still be 850+ pages, likely praising Freddy and the teams efforts, definately throwing around innocent memes and jabs at others and ourselves, people getting pulled into line (Dah.  It is the interwebs ) definately throwing up debate, indepth chat on the company itself and its finances .. yadda yadda.  What's your answer on why so many pigeons backers are defending Atari SA so vehemently, after all this time?

 

Cheers.

I've been sitting on this until I could get my thoughts together. If all you're doing is using this console for emulation, why don't you just buy a Raspberry Pi 4 and call it a day? Sure, assuming the VCS releases almost entirely bug free and as fully optimized as possible, it may be capable of running PCSX2 and Dolphin without much tinkering, but you won't have anymore capabilities to run most emulators for consoles released before 2000 or handhelds released before 2005. Lakka, libRetro's custom Linux distribution made for running RetroArch on single board computers like the RPi, can run N64, Dreamcast and PSP games at full speed with little to no issue on the Raspberry Pi 4. The best case scenario with the VCS is that it'll run like a lower end PC from half-a-decade ago, but otherwise it just seems like throwing money into a pit when you can buy single board computers or any number of other more convenient and cheaper options, the cases or enclosures to put them in, and the accessories/controllers at cheaper prices that a VCS and get the same or comparable performance for emulation. Alternately, you could buy one of the cheaper models of Intel NUCs and get more bang for your buck with performance while still having the option to add more RAM.

 

The VCS hardware as we currently know it has yet to be shown off booting up Linux and working reliably and stably in a desktop environment, never mind playing games. Those pictures from Atari's most recent Medium article shows us as precious little as their initial ones; you know, the ones that showed a game being played on Linux that didn't have a Linux build at that time, and other pictures and videos that got torn apart for being wildly untruthful about what the console is actually capable of at that point in production. SurfaceInk has the manpower and resources to tackle the wilds of this unknown architecture, but it's still going to be a slow process. I would also imagine that they would tell Atari to not expect miracles or speedy R&D of the hardware, meaning that what I said over a week ago...

On 9/30/2019 at 10:52 PM, DurradonXylles said:

 

So SpawnWaveMedia, a channel I highly recommend, made a video talking about the Atari VCS prototype shown earlier today, and he found something that I would like to share with the class. The board, for the most part, looks legit. It does seem to be using a Ryzen Embedded R1000 family APU, but he noticed a couple things about it that looked off.

 

First off, no RAM chips or slots. Now, giving benefit of the doubt, this silly little prototype could have those on the bottom, but it's still strange that it's not right next to the APU.

 

The next thing, and this is more pertinent: he noticed a company on the board that wasn't Atari on the bottom left. It's a brand named, "AskPCB". The company behind the brand, ASK Technology Ltd. prides itself on quick prototyping of PCBs, with turnaround times as short as 24 hours.

 

I'm not going to mince words, I'm not going to try to act cautiously optimistic or try to find a reason the board prototype was made by an outsourced company that can make such boards in a day, I'm just going to state my thoughts: this new prototype now makes far too much sense and reeks heavily of desperation more than anything. The Register only broke their story about the terrible state of the VCS project 4 days ago, and the reveal of the prototype motherboard was seemingly tacked onto the Antstream partnership as a last minute addition, almost like it needed to be shown as soon as possible since announcing a streaming service just after pissing off so many people would only be seen as insulting at this point. Usually, when Atari has something they want to show or tell us, they hype it up like they're Steve Ballmer on stage. But no, they just shove out a picture of a naked board in hopes it would satiate the masses for another couple months. It only seems to make sense that the reason this board was shown off in such a quick and sloppy matter was to shut up critics and angry customers alike.

 

I'm just going to say it right now: any minute notions that I had that this console was going to release to backers in December, even if buggy and untested, are gone. I'm almost certain at this point that if this thing does release, it won't be until late 2020, and that's assuming it even comes out at all. They aren't anywhere close to primetime, and this prototype being, as SpawnWave put it, "an overnight science fair project," is just downright insulting. I legitimately hope my cynical assumptions are proven wrong, but Atari SA has long since killed off any good will or benefit of the doubt I've been willing to give them long, LONG ago.

...Is still as relevant as ever. Regardless of who is working on the VCS prototype, if it's anyone at all at this point and time, the console won't be ready for backers before the end of the year unless manufacturing has already started last month and they're being shipped as non-functioning, DIY kits with Atari's branding on them.

 

Anyways, the point I was getting to with AMD is that they are currently working on their answer to Intel's NUC, planning a release SOON™, and AsRock recently released three "4X4" (4" X 4") boards that apparently look and perform similarly to various models of the NUC line using the Ryzen Embedded 1000 series APUs. I cannot guess how well they perform until enough of the general public, or at least techies on YouTube, have their hands on them, but it seems to me that these might be an even better version of the hardware Atari's still failing to deliver or even demonstrate. However, AMD's NUC competitor will reportedly not be using the Ryzen Embedded chipset; this decision leads me to believe that AMD might be abandoning the Ryzen Embedded chipset family in the near future or, at the very least, relegating it to a lower end embedded APU that won't ever get any more support than it's getting now even if newer versions get released.

 

However you look at it, this last bit makes the VCS look like an even worse investment now since there are potentially cheaper NUC clones with similar hardware, and the chipset powering it is being skipped over altogether by its very manufacturer for making a direct competitor to Intel's NUC. Overall, considering how much I wrote here, it just seems like the more we uncover the more this console just looks like one pile of uncertainty on top of another with smatterings of mistrust and deceit sprinkled throughout.

Edited October 10, 2019 by DurradonXylles