RetroN 77

[Andromeda Stardust]

I think Stella should emulate:

 

3- Discussing it with your grade-school buddies

This would require a fairly high order AI to emulate. So far, nobody has passed the Turing Test to the best of my knowledge. Though we are getting close with current consumer based "helper" devices from Apple / Amazon / Google / Microsoft, with custom synthetic voices and human-sounding names like Cortana or Alexa.

[Keatah]

In thinking about whether to improve or re-do ARM/Harmony/Melody simulation. Maybe we should be asking how often new BS schemes are developed? Or likely to be developed? Maybe there could be a simple modular approach like a plug-in or something. Maybe do away with the notion of BS in emulation entirely.

 

Just thinking randomly here - it's a dangerous and explosive thing I know. Especially after the Q-Bert nightmare/dream the other day.

Edited June 19, 2017 by Keatah

[Andromeda Stardust]

In thinking about whether to improve or re-do ARM/Harmony/Melody simulation. Maybe we should be asking how often new BS schemes are developed? Or likely to be developed? Maybe there could be a simple modular approach like a plug-in or something. Maybe do away with the notion of BS in emulation entirely.

 

Just thinking randomly here - it's a dangerous and explosive thing I know. Especially after the Q-Bert nightmare/dream the other day.

Plugins would be good. Better if the entire Melody board can be emulated, but that is a tall order.

 

Perhaps a compromise, the emulator could read the ARM plugin or driver off the cartridge and use smart heuristics to determine how to emulate the bankswitch without the need for updates every time a new ARM driver is developed for Melody.

[mos6507]

I got excited about this until it was revealed to be the equivalent of a mini laptop with an internal stelladapter and a cart-dumper.

 

If it can't interact with the cartridge at game-time it's not a true hardware emulation.

[Bill Loguidice]

I got excited about this until it was revealed to be the equivalent of a mini laptop with an internal stelladapter and a cart-dumper.

 

If it can't interact with the cartridge at game-time it's not a true hardware emulation.

 

I don't understand this. If it plays the games properly, what does it matter what's going on under the hood? Besides, we likely won't get "true hardware emulation" in the mass market until FPGA solutions drop in price, and even then it's arguable if potentially losing some of the software emulation advantages like rewind, save states, snapshots, etc., is really worth the change.

[mos6507]

It's just that if it isn't 100% hardware emulation then it's not anything we can't already do by just loading ROMs into a laptop hooked up to a TV with a Stelladapter. The only innovations are form-factor and dumping carts on the fly. I'd be surprised if it actually worked with carts that feature a lot of runtime access to the cart, like your Supercharger, Cuttle Carts, etc... If it does, it's a mystery to me how it pulls it off.

[Thomas Jentzsch]

100% hardware emulation is quite impossible. Even Atari back then struggled with compatibility of its own hardware.

 

Therefore IMO software emulation is the only option, especially because it can be fixed when bugs occur, new tricks are discovered, new bankswitching schema are added, etc. pp.

[Bill Loguidice]

It's just that if it isn't 100% hardware emulation then it's not anything we can't already do by just loading ROMs into a laptop hooked up to a TV with a Stelladapter. The only innovations are form-factor and dumping carts on the fly. I'd be surprised if it actually worked with carts that feature a lot of runtime access to the cart, like your Supercharger, Cuttle Carts, etc... If it does, it's a mystery to me how it pulls it off.

 

I agree about the mystery of being able to run flash carts. If it pulls that off, it will be a true innovation in the category.

 

In terms of your main point, yes, PC emulation is always an option, but it's never really as elegant or authentic feeling as these types of solutions can be. There's something to be said for an inexpensive, purpose-built box versus a general purpose computer. It's why consoles still have such appeal over hooking a PC up to a TV.

[hizzy]

I would love an FPGA Atari, like the one Metal Jesus has. Outside of the flashback portable, I haven't bought an Atari retail product in years. If they ever make an FPGA console and it's $400.00 -$500.00, I'd grab it in a heartbeat.

[Bill Loguidice]

I would love an FPGA Atari, like the one Metal Jesus has. Outside of the flashback portable, I haven't bought an Atari retail product in years. If they ever make an FPGA console and it's $400.00 -$500.00, I'd grab it in a heartbeat.

 

I'm sure at least a dozen people would buy a $400 - $500 console like that. Really, though, you can get FPGA solutions for about half that price, but they're still not as plug and play as they could be, nor still at a price for the mass market even if they were.

[Major_Havoc]

On that note what would Kevtris' 2600 Core on the NT-Mini (had he ever released the cart adaptor) count as? Us dozens want to know.

 

It's pretty funny how as time goes on we get so much variation between real hardware, hardware emulation, software emulation, form factors, functionality, both homemade and commercial, and everything in-between.. and in this case all to play old VCS games. I love it.

Edited June 20, 2017 by Major_Havoc

[+-^CrossBow^-]

Not sure if this was addressed or spoken of, but if the RetronN 77 is using emulation, then to compensate for the lack of switches needed on certain games, can't the emulation just "Pause" the game while you bring up the on screen menu to change the switches as you need?

 

I realize this isn't in tradition of the real games since they couldn't really be paused back in the day on the 2600, but seems that would be the best solution here and likely the route they plan to take?

[+Nathan Strum]

Not sure if this was addressed or spoken of, but if the RetronN 77 is using emulation, then to compensate for the lack of switches needed on certain games, can't the emulation just "Pause" the game while you bring up the on screen menu to change the switches as you need?

 

Already addressed:

As it is for now, I can confirm that our newest build has the following working physical buttons that we plan to bring to the front: reset, select, save, load; a few buttons on the back: difficulty, game mode, color/bw/scanlines, aspect ratio, glitch switch. As most of people who came to talk to me and to try to earlier prototype, it plays games in clear HD without any noticeable issues.

[Thomas Jentzsch]

I would love an FPGA Atari, like the one Metal Jesus has. Outside of the flashback portable, I haven't bought an Atari retail product in years. If they ever make an FPGA console and it's $400.00 -$500.00, I'd grab it in a heartbeat.

And how would you react, if a game wouldn't work at all or displays wrong? Would you mind if some new homebrews wouldn't work?

[hizzy]

And how would you react, if a game wouldn't work at all or displays wrong? Would you mind if some new homebrews wouldn't work?

 

I'm probably mistaken, but the FPGA Atari prototype doesn't seem to have any compatibility issues. Metal Jesus would be able to speak on this better

[Thomas Jentzsch]

I'm probably mistaken, but the FPGA Atari prototype doesn't seem to have any compatibility issues. Metal Jesus would be able to speak on this better

Unless the original schematics are 100% replicated on gate level, that is (at least partially) emulation too (in hardware instead of software). And then incompatibilities are pretty much inevitable. Even if all currently existing ROMs would work perfectly, you never can be sure that future ROMs which explore the hardware limits still will.

[Keatah]

Software emulation can easily deal with multiple versions of hardware and variants. From simple things like NTSC or PAL, to subtleties in memory configurations. Depends on how much is needed and how much the devs & users want and need to drill down.

 

Versatility is strength of software emulation. May not be a 100% perfect replica but the advantages outweigh the disadvantages.

[Thomas Jentzsch]

....outweigh the disadvantages.

...which are?

[Keatah]

Difficult setup.

Inaccurate gameplay.

No accurate CRT simulation.

Lag & stuttering.

Controller annoyances.

No nostalgia because no carts, no console.

Bulky and ratty PC hardware.

Having to find roms.

Hard to remember keyboard layouts.

Razor sharp graphics with no fuzzy edges.

 

There's more, but I'm too lazy at the moment to recall them all. They're not necessarily problems I have, but what others have reported. They say any one of those reasons is enough to avoid emulation.

[Thomas Jentzsch]

I meant comparing a modern FPGA emulator (not the original hardware) with a dedicated software emulator like Retron 77.

[Keatah]

Ohh FPGA? Haven't played with them much. But I hear they're perfect. Loved and revered the world over. An FPGA rig can do no wrong. And their developers are god-like.

 

But.. I see cost as an issue. And lack of development, too. Or less development. Less long-term collaboration. Simpler menuing systems, minimal or no GUI. More niche programming language.

 

I also see porting from one FPGA chip to the next to be nonexistent. Whereas with software emulation you can upgrade the hardware and software together or separate, whatever is convenient.

 

Stella will work on my Pentium II or i7 and anything in between. And there are 50 million builds to cover other os'es.

 

Those are downsides I see right away.

Edited June 20, 2017 by Keatah

[Thomas Jentzsch]

I think we got confused here: What are the disadvantages of a Atari 2600 box with software emulation over some with hardware emulation?

 

(that's what I was quoting above )

[DirtyHairy]

I sometimes have the feeling that there is a certain degree of mysticism here when it comes to FPGAs A FPGA implementation of a 2600 is still an emulation, the only difference is that it doesn't run as software on a CPU but instead is compiled to gate arrangements on an FPGA --- effectively an ASIC emulating the 2600. It is still an emulator, compiled from a software description (Verilog, ...) and, unless you are replicating the original schematics to the bit, any flaws in that description will lead to emulation inaccuracies. The only potential advantages over software emulation that I see are

• No operating system -> no timing glitches due to task switching and preemption
• Direct interfacing with peripherials -> no adapters
• Direct composite output, no beating between display refresh and emulation framerate

I myself have a MIST FPGA, although I haven't time to play with it as much as I'd like. It is a great device, but there are emulation bugs in the available cores for sure, and, while its menu is done nicely, it's unwieldly compared to an emulator running on my desktop. If I would be doing serious retro-gaming, then I would definitely prefer software.

Edited June 20, 2017 by DirtyHairy

[Keatah]

Lag. An age-old complaint regardless if it is still true or not.

 

Software incompatibilities because of using an older version. Older versions of emus are often used because of lower system requirements, and therefore cheaper hardware. There is still a large, and automatic by default, attitude that software emu is inferior. Cheap China-made crap underpowered SoC.

 

And I just got through reading a post about MiST being better than software. And the MiST box hadn't even been powered up and posted with. Just that it's better. Automatic bias by default.

 

I also hear that software emu does not output exact precise video signals. The timing is off. Vsync issues too. No composite, s-video, RGB, or SCART. No traditional analog. Purists always point that out.

 

Frame rate is never exact and thus may result in dropping, skipping, speed differences, or tearing.

[Keatah]

FPGA proponents go at it with a religious-like fervor. Annoyingly so. Nothing else will do. I think the thinking is because it's all hardware, and that the hardware is an exact match for the console it replaces. It is commonly mistaken as being a perfect replica.

 

Software seems to have the unshakable notion of being cheap and not thoroughly vetted. You always hear the phrase, "cheap box of emulators." And that's a shame because that isn't true of all emus. Software has so much to offer. So many subtle amenities that add to the enjoyment factor.

 

I also like software because it can be "recalled" or updated rather quickly when a problem is discovered. Issues with FPGA rigs sometimes need a hardware fix, like a different cable or resistor. And some problems may never get fixed because of lack of memory. But the PC or that newfangled SoC seem to have unlimited resources when it comes to patching and bug fixing.

Edited June 20, 2017 by Keatah