Why no music on Jag Doom?

[Austin]

@JagChris - Keep it up! Slow night at work and this is fantastic popcorn material.

[+Sauron]

Yeah I know what you're saying. It's maxed out. And so let's cut that in half. 64x64. That's still what like 4 times PlayStation's potential.

 

Or we can be really conservative and just go 32 by 32. That's still double PlayStations output.

 

@Lost Dragon I was just told that people with experience and code to show are considered authorities. Now your saying it's speculation. Flip flop.

 

Just trying to get a handle on what Authority is.

 

You're quoting speculation about what the Jag could theoretically do and comparing it against what the PSX has been proven to do. And I can tell you that the Jag has been proven to not be able to handle it's theoretical output in practice, all due to certain design decisions and flaws.

 

No one will argue the fact that the Jag is a beast when it comes to 2D graphics, but really...there's never been anything done on the Jag that couldn't be done on it's contemporary competition also. Trying to blame that fact on "bad programmers" or whatever else just makes you look like an idiot. So please, for your own sake...stop saying that stuff.

[Bill Loguidice]

 

No one will argue the fact that the Jag is a beast when it comes to 2D graphics, but really...there's never been anything done on the Jag that couldn't be done on it's contemporary competition also. Trying to blame that fact on "bad programmers" or whatever else just makes you look like an idiot. So please, for your own sake...stop saying that stuff.

 

Arguably, the Jaguar being a 2D beast is also mostly on paper. Unfortunately, the Jaguar never got any definitive 2D games either (at least in my opinion) to really show off what it should be able to do. The average Neo Geo is probably more impressive than most of the best 2D Jaguar games. Maybe Rayman showed off the Jaguar's 2D prowess best, but it again wasn't necessarily something that didn't translate just as well when ported to other platforms. The Jaguar's architecture was perhaps almost entirely a case of good core tech hampered by low memory, limited throughput, and limited cartridge sizes.

[Zerosquare]

Neither the amount of RAM nor the size of cartridges were atypical for the era when the Jaguar was released (late 1993).

 

Comparing it to the Neo Geo isn't really fair. Sure, it's a 2D powerhouse and it was released several years before the Jaguar, but it was a lot more expensive and out-of-reach of most consumers.

[JagChris]

 

You're quoting speculation about what the Jag could theoretically do and comparing it against what the PSX has been proven to do.

It meets your criteria for expertise. 20 years experience on the Jag. So... They're really only experts if you say so. Got it.

 

@what the PSX has been proven to do.. you mean that still pic of colored dots? Yeah, MIND_BLOWN

 

Considering the poster has so many years experience with the architecture. More than anyone here, I think we can take the most conservative estimate of 32x32 as a safe bet.

 

Still double the PSX

Edited June 27, 2017 by JagChris

[+Stephen]

Still sniffing those fumes, thinking the Jag can do more 2D than the PSX Well, I guess Atari did say the Jag could do 850,000 pixels per second, right on the box. That's 1-bit, so divide by 16 and that gives us 53,125 pixels per second. Assuming 32*32 sprite, that gives us 51.8 per second.

 

This ludicrous math I used above is every bit as good an argument as you constantly just quoting someone else, having done no coding yourself.

[Zerosquare]

20 years experience on the Jag. So... They're really only experts if you say so. Got it.

Nope, they're only experts if they can offer actual, verifiable proof of their expertise.

Do you think someone who's spent 20 years babbling about gastronomy but only "cooks" microwaved TV dinners is a food expert, too?

 

More than anyone here, I think

Pretty unlikely, given your posts.

Edited June 27, 2017 by Zerosquare

[VladR]

@VladR:The way i read ATD's comment was that it had thrown up an issue, in sense they had been coding thinking they could use DSP to assist with taking some of the work load off other chips, but this wasn't possible, so they had to rethink the process..

 

But..without seeing full conscript, it's hard to know full context quote was given in..

 

And it was their 1st Jaguar title so bound to be a learning curve attached, but it still remains a documented example of the DSP not being able to implement everything a coder had hoped to of done at a commercial level, at that time.

 

Maybe Atari had oversold the potential of the DSP?.

 

They did clearly state what and where they would of liked to use it for and why that simply wasn't possible but as to if that was an issue with the DSP or their original plans..i very much doubt they themselves would remember,it's been so many years.

 

Fred admits his memory is very hazy as does Brian Pollock,when it comes to coding on Jaguar back then.

Unfrotunately, once you have divided the labour between the two cores (GPU,DSP), and implemented it all, it's a lot of work to do a complete rearchitecture at that point.

 

And, it's also only at that time, once everything is running, that you have a precise benchmarking numbers, so you get quite a few of "aha" moments. But, it's too late at that point, so it's exactly like you say - learning curve.

 

I honestly believe, that as their 1st title, it's technically awesome.

 

What do you mean by "Atari oversold DSP idea" ? I only recall focus on GPU. DSP always felt like it was treated as a 2nd-class citizen, despite being as powerful in calculations in GPU (just screwed down on the bus bandwidth to RAM).

 

Honestly, I wouldn't even try to have that kind of technical conversation with them, unless it was within first 3-6 months of the launch, let alone a decade or two. Hell, I don't recall benchmarks I did 2 weeks ago

[JagChris]

Idiot? OK. Name calling and misdirection has begun.

 

To sum up looking at Scatos work on the DSP and HVS able to get the DSP to multi-task IMO Dave Taylor wasn't a fantastic programmer. And that's why there's no music in JagDoom. Hell there's even music during gameplay in Iron Soldier.

 

And all that kicking and whining in the interview was probably because Dave Taylors time with the Jag showed him something about himself he probably didn't want to see.

 

That's my opinion so I will leave you guys alone to proceed with the name calling and misdirection to confuse anyone who comes after.

 

Have fun.

[+remowilliams]

I'm going to put this the nicest way I can - your enthusiasm is admirable, but your complete lack of even fundamental understanding in these things that you continue to attempt to discuss are several leagues beyond embarrassing.

Again...

[+Sauron]

Idiot? OK. Name calling and misdirection has begun.

 

To sum up looking at Scatos work on the DSP and HVS able to get the DSP to multi-task IMO Dave Taylor wasn't a fantastic programmer. And that's why there's no music in JagDoom. Hell there's even music during gameplay in Iron Soldier.

 

And all that kicking and whining in the interview was probably because Dave Taylors time with the Jag showed him something about himself he probably didn't want to see.

 

That's my opinion so I will leave you guys alone to proceed with the name calling and misdirection to confuse anyone who comes after.

 

Have fun.

 

"Idiot" is an appropriate term for this situation. Dave Taylor already had a good amount of commercial game dev experience by that point in his career. You have exactly none. Comparing Doom to other games is an apples to oranges thing, it's ridiculous to do and proves absolutely nothing. But go ahead and take your ball and go home. Watching you continuously put your foot in your mouth is becoming embarrassing.

[Lost Dragon]

The proof of anyone's expertise and a platforms true technical ability is the software running on it.

 

Unless JagChris you or your selected coders can produce actual Jaguar software as good as PS1 Einhander, SFA3,Lomax,the Oddworld series, Skull Monkeys, Metal Slug, Strider or even an RPG like Blood Omen, the best benchmark you have for Jaguar is Rayman which converted rather well to Playstation and started out as a SNES CD title itself..

 

Your preferred coder who speculates Saturn could smoke PS1 in terms of 3D needs to come up with Saturn titles that do more on hardware than was achieved on PS1 with titles like Quake 2, MDK,Alien Res,Shadow Master,Ridge Racer 4, Colony Wars:Red Sun etc etc.

 

Putting up soap on a rope technical theories about what might be possible on paper,type quotes that caught your eye won't work.

 

Espically since you yourself know people aren't out there slaving away on PS1 beating 2D games on Jaguar or 3D on Saturn.

 

So you feel safe falling back on quotes you've cherry picked.

 

Your entitled of course to your own views on Dave Taylor as a coder,but he can at least be judged by what he produced on Jaguar at the time.

 

So far you've failed to produce any finished game code to prove any of your points...and i cannot see this changing.

 

So..a HVS coder got the DSP to multitask..you would have to of had HVS produce a version of Doom working alongside Carmack, using only what was known then, in same time period and under same conditions set by Carmack to really be able to say Dave Taylor could of done better.

 

But as you know this could never happen..we simply get the same old nonsense.

Edited June 28, 2017 by Lost Dragon

[Lost Dragon]

As for Dave Taylor's time on Jaguar showing him something he didn't want to see..

 

What would he of seen JagChris, coding Doom after Wolfenstien?

 

The simple fact the Jaguar was doing so badly at retail that it was blatantly obvious Doom sales were going to follow it on Jaguar and be medicore at best in terms of units sold?

 

That whilst I.D were tied up coding this,they could of been spending time on games for the commercially successful platforms?

 

Or maybe that all those years later his personal views on 1 platform he briefly worked on,wasn't a fan of..which is true for others at I.D at that time, Carmack alone seems only fan, would be quoted by someone who himself has never coded on Jaguar, let alone attempted to convert a PC title to it..

 

And find his ability to code questioned by someone who's now gone from comparing White Men Can't Jump to Doom, madness there alone, to bringing a bloody Mech game into the comparison.

 

 

I wish i had never done the bastard

interview now.

 

It would of been far easier for likes of yourself and certain other banned from AA fanboys to live in your dreamworld where it's considered gospel that I.D as a developer, not just Carmack, loved Jaguar, Quake was started and Carmack said so, based on some interview they swore blind they saw,but can't produce or say where or when it was published..

 

 

Find a like for like PC FPS conversion running on real hardware, without music looping and isn't using Jag Doom code as source for conversion.

 

Maybe had Imagitec Design produced working Jag code for Freelancer 2120 we could of seen how another developer used the Doom engine on a CD title on Jaguar..

 

But they didn't so we aren't able to make any such comparison.

Edited June 28, 2017 by Lost Dragon

[Lost Dragon]

@VladR:I know it has it's haters and is unfairly compared to SNES Starfox by many, but Cybermorph was a far better launch title,in terms of press reaction to what Jaguar could do, than Raiden or Crescent Galaxy, so ATD should be proud of what they achieved.

 

Regarding overselling the DSP..i would of liked to of known more about the bug testing of the Jaguar chipsets ATD did for Atari, especially based on their comment about what they had hoped to of done with any free cycles on it, during Cybermorph.

 

Maybe Atari had promised them certain bugs they discovered would be rectified on production hardware and they found them still present in final development system boards i honestly don't know and so many years have passed we will probably never know what fixes Atari implemented after ATD submitted their inital findings.

[Lost Dragon]

The reason i reached out to Dave Taylor and later John Romero, simply was because that bloody claim of Carmack saying he'd started Jaguar Quake kept being reported on as fact, yet the voices couldn't even name where or when they saw it, nor has interview itself been found.

 

It made sense to ask Dave for his thoughts on why Jaguar version had no music, espically since Tom K. had tried to use fact 32X version featured it as a means of implying the 32X version was superior.

 

AVP had no in game music, but let's not start JagChris on Rebellion or we will be here all day.

 

Crescent Galaxy had no music nor other features present in Genesis/SNES titles in this category.

 

Syndicate had slowdown...

 

Pick a Jaguar title from any commercial coder throughout it's very limited lifespan and you'll find areas that needed improvement and that includes bloody HVS..

 

Lets just appreciate the fact we were bloody luckily we had I.D themselves do both Wolfenstien and Doom on Jaguar and Atari didn't want someone cheaper to have a crack at it.

 

If Dactyl Joust had been finished, was bloody great fun, flagship Jaguar title technically, but only featured music on title screen and stats pages would you of labelled HVS bad coders also i wonder?.

[Lost Dragon]

And I looked into HVS a bit deeper..

 

NBA Jam with it's muted colours isn't doing anything 2D wise that smokes the 32X or PS1 versions.

 

Has more voice samples than SNES version sure..But lacks the coin op music and thus a lot of the atmosphere..The generic music used in it's place isn't wonderful.

 

And looking at mail John Skruch sent Bill Rehbock concerning Dactyl Joust..

 

So..it was HVS who said they could not only implement the contact weapon orientated game play mechanics John wanted but implement line of sight weapons also.

 

John's concerns they were over stretched. .developing NBA Jam, Vid Grid and Dactyl Joust etc fell on deaf ears.

 

John said he felt assigned coder wasn't capable/acceptable..

 

Original coder had started out really good..but as he got further in..flaked out as John put it...described him as a fry brain.

 

I won't name coders slammed.

 

John ends up questioning if it's worth trying to salvage anything from project.

 

And you honestly want to single out Dave Taylor because Doom on Jaguar lacked in-game music?

 

Take a look at your hero developers before turning spotlight on others is my humble advice..They don't come up smelling of roses..

Edited June 28, 2017 by Lost Dragon

[WAVE 1 GAMES]

Wow LostDragon, you really went on a rant there.

I dont think I have ever seen anyone post that much before on here.

Anyway I feel I must chime in.

You said every Jaguar title needed improvements SOMEWHERE, or lacked something somwehere else. BattleMorph by ATD and Tempest 2000 were pretty much perfect games and I don't see where they could have been improved at all.

 

BUT about this whole Jaguar being a 2D powerhouse on paper VS PSX and Saturn,

Now look at GEX. It was on Saturn and PSX, it had tons of voices samples and a wide variety of backgrounds with vivid colors. I'm not entirely sure but I dont believe the individual backgrounds for the levels were even tile mapped.

This is a pretty average 2D game on these consoles, but when I think about the prospect of porting this game to Jaguar (in an imaginary world) and I remember that the Jaguar only has 2 MB of RAM to load voice clips and graphics at a time I can't see how it would work on Jaguar. It would definitely have to be a JagCD game for starters because a 4MB cart surely won't hold all that data not to mention the FMV clips.

Even then I still imagine the Jaguar would have had trouble with a game like this. I remember on Saturn and PSX it seemed to load an entire world (about 5 levels) each go and it also had a variation of music within each world.

 

This is a pretty basic 2D game Im not even thinking about Oddworld or that crazy Eihander game or anything like that.

 

The fact is PlayStation had a LOT more support, a much longer lifespan and TONS of people to learn how to squeeze every ounce of power out of that system. It seems to me like Jaguar was never really figured out much at all. It simply didn't live long enough or have enough people behind it (atari) to figure out all its quirks. I bet Jaguar Doom and Crescent Galaxy COULD have had some kind of music, it almost seems like they just didn't know how to do it. The DSP was being used for control and what else in crescent galaxy? There could have been some kind of music, even if it were crappy music they just didn't know how or maybe Atari were pressing them too hard for a release. Or hell maybe Atari didn't want to pay for extra time to implement music, they were rather cheap.

Edited June 28, 2017 by Jeffrey_Bones

[JagChris]

 

"Idiot" is an appropriate term for this situation. Dave Taylor already had a good amount of commercial game dev experience by that point in his career. You have exactly none.

I'm sure Dave Taylor is a good programmer. Just at the time that he was working on JAG Doom I think he just wasn't very good.

 

 

You know you keep mentioning experience when it's convenient for you. But you discard the words of a programmer who has over 20 years experience in the architecture being discussed. Not convenient, discard.

Edited June 28, 2017 by JagChris

[VladR]

@VladR:I know it has it's haters and is unfairly compared to SNES Starfox by many, but Cybermorph was a far better launch title,in terms of press reaction to what Jaguar could do, than Raiden or Crescent Galaxy, so ATD should be proud of what they achieved.

 

Regarding overselling the DSP..i would of liked to of known more about the bug testing of the Jaguar chipsets ATD did for Atari, especially based on their comment about what they had hoped to of done with any free cycles on it, during Cybermorph.

 

Maybe Atari had promised them certain bugs they discovered would be rectified on production hardware and they found them still present in final development system boards i honestly don't know and so many years have passed we will probably never know what fixes Atari implemented after ATD submitted their inital findings.

I absolutely agree that ATD can be proud of Cybermorph as launch title, as far as technical achievement is concerned.

 

As for DSP, I was just curious, as that was the first time, I heard about "overselling DSP", so I was curious, if perhaps, in UK press, there were few specific articles about it. I for sure, don't recall anything on that subject, in local game magazines, I read monthly at that time. And I read at least 3 at that time, each month.

 

And I enjoy and appreciate piecing the history together. Thanks for the information!

[Lost Dragon]

I welcome any intelligent discussion on where Jaguar Doom fell a little short, but i will not stand back when JagChris uses the interview with Dave Taylor who like John Romero was kind enough to give his time and personal thoughts on Jaguar hardware, unlike John Carmack..as a means of defending his bizarre thought processes.

 

He implies Dave slagged the Jaguar hardware off as it showed him up as a poor coder when likes of High Voltage Software etc had apparently gotten so much more from same system.

 

Regarding games mentioned..

 

Jeff Minter himself admits he could of made better use of Jaguar hardware with Tempest 2000 and did with Defender 2000,but it was his 1St Jaguar title.

 

Battlemorph..we know Atari wanted more texture mapping to compete with PS1 and 3DO titles as ATD have told us this and they wisely choose to use limited texture mapping, so more texture mapping would of been nice, if they could of squeezed more from system.

 

Never played Gex myself on any system so cannot personally comment..Sorry.

 

Crescent Galaxy needed far more depth to backgrounds, multi-layered Parallax,let alone in game music.

 

I wasn't able to speak to coders of it so cannot even begin to understand how hardware was used.

 

GTW did contact Susan Mobile on my behalf, game was her baby, she promised to reply, twice but never did.

 

What more can i do?

 

I take your very valid points about developers not having luxury of Jaguar having a long life cycle..but when I see games like..

 

Hyperforce who's graphics lacked depth, needed more parallax, animation frames and better use of colours..

 

Or listen to sound FX in things like Ruiner Pinball..

 

I think developers seemed to forget we expected more than Genesis 1.5 titles on such a powerful 2D machine..

 

So how come the people responsible aren't getting same chap thrown at their perceived skill set as Dave Taylor?

 

What's good for the goose and all that..

[Lost Dragon]

http://www.atarimania.com/game-atari-jaguar-commander-blood_s22100.html

 

@VladR:you might find the documents from developer explaining issues they had with Jaguar hardware of interest.

 

There's also Ringler Studio's claiming Leonard Tramiel put together presentation materials implying Jaguar could render real time 3D imagery as good as that found in the film, The Lawnmower Man, suffice to say Ringler felt Atari had grossly misrepresented the capabilites of the Jaguar.

 

 

All worth mentioning if your looking into commercial development history.

Edited June 28, 2017 by Lost Dragon

[+Sauron]

You know you keep mentioning experience when it's convenient for you. But you discard the words of a programmer who has over 20 years experience in the architecture being discussed. Not convenient, discard.

 

Because said programmer is a raving lunatic who talked a lot of bluster but produced very little. Anything he has to say deserves a high degree of scrutiny.

[Zerosquare]

(Not to mention, JagChris accusing others of ignoring "inconvenient" facts is pretty hilarious.)

Edited June 28, 2017 by Zerosquare

[phoenixdownita]

 

Arguably, the Jaguar being a 2D beast is also mostly on paper. Unfortunately, the Jaguar never got any definitive 2D games either (at least in my opinion) to really show off what it should be able to do. The average Neo Geo is probably more impressive than most of the best 2D Jaguar games. Maybe Rayman showed off the Jaguar's 2D prowess best, but it again wasn't necessarily something that didn't translate just as well when ported to other platforms. The Jaguar's architecture was perhaps almost entirely a case of good core tech hampered by low memory, limited throughput, and limited cartridge sizes.

I believe we got a glimpse of 2D prowess with Super Burnout, I personally do not like some of the choices they made wrt to the physics of it but it shows that the Jag was likely "as good as" the Sega Arcade Superscaler, maybe on par with a Sega System 32 (that may be a little stretching, X-Board/Y-Board level more likely check GPRider on X-board or PowerDrift on YBoard to see what I mean).

 

I love my AES but Riding Hero is just not good compared to Super Burnout .... so told it's just not that good as a NeoGeo showcase to begin with.

[VladR]

http://www.atarimania.com/game-atari-jaguar-commander-blood_s22100.html

 

@VladR:you might find the documents from developer explaining issues they had with Jaguar hardware of interest.

Great reading those scans ! Thanks a ton !

How do these things even surface ? Someone closing the shop and forgetting / giving away all faxes ?

 

There's also Ringler Studio's claiming Leonard Tramiel put together presentation materials implying Jaguar could render real time 3D imagery as good as that found in the film, The Lawnmower Man, suffice to say Ringler felt Atari had grossly misrepresented the capabilites of the Jaguar.

Holy crap. I hope this one is not true. But can't say I'd really be suprised...

 

On the other hand, as long as Leo didn't mention that imagery would run at 60 fps (he may gave "forgotten" to mention it's more like 0.06 fps )