IntelliXpander module

[CatPix]

1) The problem I see is that it will require to remove the expansion to play regular games. And this mean added wear on the slot. Could it be possible to have an adapter that would allow to use regular games on the Xpander then, like the Famicom to NES adapters?

Or simply make the slot bigger for both types of carts, if you choose the top loading slot? (unless you also want to have more pins on the carts).

 

2) Improved video is the goal of that expansion, no?

IMO, what do you think would have been feasible in say, 1981/82, that would not have blow the budget? Maybe check the specs of the planned "real" Intellivison II? (I recall it had a sort of Mode 7 built in?) That would be maybe a bit more over the top, but not too ridiculously high powered to have a sort cross between the original Intellivision and the never released INTVII.

 

(OMG, I'm suggesting you a 32X for the Intelli.)

 

Just an afterthough, about improved video, would it be feasible to have a video output on the Xpander? Just saying. That might be a good selling point for some people. But getting the video data back from the cart port might be impossible for technical reasons.

Edited July 6, 2017 by CatPix

[opcode]

Define improved video...

 

Improved video capabilities, like more resolution, more colors, more sprites, etc. But not necessarily all of those, could be a subset.

[opcode]

1) The problem I see is that it will require to remove the expansion to play regular games. And this mean added wear on the slot. Could it be possible to have an adapter that would allow to use regular games on the Xpander then, like the Famicom to NES adapters?

Or simply make the slot bigger for both types of carts, if you choose the top loading slot? (unless you also want to have more pins on the carts).

 

2) Improved video is the goal of that expansion, no?

IMO, what do you think would have been feasible in say, 1981/82, that would not have blow the budged? Maybe check the specs of the planned "real" Intellivison II? (I recall it had a sort of Mode 7 built in?)

 

Interesting point. People more familiar with the Intv III please help me here. Huge number of colors, 64 sprites, 2 bits per pixel color, 320x192?

And no, the current design doesn't include any video improvements per se, although there are some indirect improvements.

[opcode]

Ok, just had this interesting conversation with our hardware guru here. What about this trade-off:

 

1) We remove the Intv cartridge port, because we need space in the board

2) We add Intellivision III like video (tile based, 4 colors per object, 64 sprites, huge number of colors, 320x192 or close). We have 4 times faster CPU and improved sound as well.

3) we are still in the $150 range

 

or we add the Intellivision cartridge port, has no new video and price stays around $120

 

How does that sound?

[128Kgames]

1) The problem I see is that it will require to remove the expansion to play regular games. And this mean added wear on the slot. Could it be possible to have an adapter that would allow to use regular games on the Xpander then, like the Famicom to NES adapters?

Or simply make the slot bigger for both types of carts, if you choose the top loading slot? (unless you also want to have more pins on the carts).

 

I may be new to the Intellivision, but I'm not new to vintage consoles, and I gotta go with CatPix on this one. The slot on my Super Pro System is as they say "tight". I can't see connecting and disconnecting it on a regular basis (the IntelliXpander) depending on what I want to play. Its not like I can head down to Radio Shack and start buying spare parts if something breaks (no, seriously, all the Radio Shacks by me are gone, even if they did have them).

 

Personally I'd rather have a larger slot (yeah, that will never sound right) instead of an adapter, as adapters can get lost, broken etc. If the cart slot could support the original Intellivision carts as well as the IntelliXpander carts that would be great (even if the format is different). I'm not sure the larger slot would work though: the "smaller" cart, if there was one, most likely wouldn't' fit.

 

Cost wise what do the numbers look like in design and tooling as far as having two slots vs one slot and not changing the cartridge format? There has to be a trade off somewhere.

[128Kgames]

or we add the Intellivision cartridge port, has no new video and price stays around $120

 

How does that sound?

 

Yeah, that option.

[CatPix]

Ok, just had this interesting conversation with our hardware guru here. What about this trade-off:

 

1) We remove the Intv cartridge port, because we need space in the board

2) We add Intellivision III like video (tile based, 4 colors per object, 64 sprites, huge number of colors, 320x192 or close). We have 4 times faster CPU and improved sound as well.

3) we are still in the $150 range

 

or we add the Intellivision cartridge port, has no new video and price stays around $120

 

How does that sound?

 

If I have to blow 150$ in an expansion, I'd rather have it doing more than adding 8 sprites and 2Ko of RAM heh.

I guess it's hard to tell because, unless I missed a link here or on your site, we do not know what the Xpander is going to do.

If you could manage to make it so the connector and port is compatible with both original Intelli and Xpander carts, I think that it would please most people.

Edited July 6, 2017 by CatPix

[+nurmix]

Ok, just had this interesting conversation with our hardware guru here. What about this trade-off:

 

1) We remove the Intv cartridge port, because we need space in the board

2) We add Intellivision III like video (tile based, 4 colors per object, 64 sprites, huge number of colors, 320x192 or close). We have 4 times faster CPU and improved sound as well.

3) we are still in the $150 range

 

or we add the Intellivision cartridge port, has no new video and price stays around $120

 

How does that sound?

I like the idea of designing to the unreleased Intellivision III spec, as far as video - which was essentially double the resolution and sprites, with more colors.

 

That said... if you go overboard with graphics, then you start getting into the whole "is this still an Intellivision" question.

 

I'm also in agreement with not wanting to wear out the console cartridge port, but I would take graphics improvements over a lack of an Intellivision cartridge port if I had to choose - again, provided they stick close to the Intellivision III specs.

 

 

 

Sent from my Keyboard Component using Jack's Conversational Intelli-talk cassette

[CatPix]

That said... if you go overboard with graphics, then you start getting into the whole "is this still an Intellivision" question.

 

Sent from my Keyboard Component using Jack's Conversational Intelli-talk cassette

It's pretty much why I suggested the INTVIII. So it stays within specs of the era, and it's a good, catchy sale pitch.

I also though of he Keyboard Component as a base, but it seemed that it "only" added more CPU power.

It's one reason I didn't got the Super Game Module; reading the specs, I felt like it was something you could add on a cart (probably not one of BITD, but homebrew ones) rather than getting a special module for it. But heh, it was a planned thing, so it was made up to specs, and I respect that. Here whe have a blank sheet, so... InTV III sounds like a good idea.

Edited July 6, 2017 by CatPix

[+5-11under]

or we add the Intellivision cartridge port, has no new video and price stays around $120

 

How does that sound?

 

What does the IntelliXpander do, technically and practically?

[opcode]

 

Cost wise what do the numbers look like in design and tooling as far as having two slots vs one slot and not changing the cartridge format? There has to be a trade off somewhere.

 

The biggest problem with the Intv cartridge slot is that it is horizontal and goes deep into the system. That means the system looses a lot of board space. Tooling is also a little bit more complicate because you must add the cartridge slot walls to the design.

Using an existing case as the base for the new case is always a big money saver. The System Changer is a good compromise between size and space. The bigger the case, the more expensive the tooling, and price goes up pretty quickly. I am estimating the IntelliXpander mold to be around $10K, so going bigger isn't something desirable.

The current IntelliXpander design improves CPU, sound and memory, and the graphic improvements come as a "side effect" of those things. That was a conscious design decision, so that games still look like Intv games.

But then hardware team suggested me that by removing the Intv cartridge slot, there is enough space to also improve graphics. At the first I wasn't too excited about the idea, until CatPix mentioned the Intv III. And I agree, it is a delicate mix between improving things and still being an Intv, and that is the reason I didn't touch the graphics at first. But I like the idea of Intv III like video.

 

As for cartridge port wear caused by repeatedly inserting and removing the module, well, that is how you change games anyways. But again, let's discuss this a little more.

[opcode]

 

What does the IntelliXpander do, technically and practically?

 

Let's say that I think that the Intv CPU is the bottleneck of the system. You remove the bottleneck, you start seeing what the Intv video and sound chips are really capable of.

 

Here is a question: would you guys be open to give the new Intv III like video idea a shot? I can put together a quick demo and then you can decide if it is too much...

[+cmart604]

Ok, just had this interesting conversation with our hardware guru here. What about this trade-off:

 

1) We remove the Intv cartridge port, because we need space in the board

2) We add Intellivision III like video (tile based, 4 colors per object, 64 sprites, huge number of colors, 320x192 or close). We have 4 times faster CPU and improved sound as well.

3) we are still in the $150 range

 

or we add the Intellivision cartridge port, has no new video and price stays around $120

 

How does that sound?

I'd prefer designing it around the Inty3 specs over having the cartridge slot. As it stands, I don't often use my multicart, but rather I switch carts out each time so I clearly don't worry about wear and tear I guess.

[+cmart604]

 

Let's say that I think that the Intv CPU is the bottleneck of the system. You remove the bottleneck, you start seeing what the Intv video and sound chips are really capable of.

 

Here is a question: would you guys be open to give the new Intv III like video idea a shot? I can put together a quick demo and then you can decide if it is too much...

Yes please! I've always wanted to see what the next gen of Inty games would have looked like and this sounds like the way to do so.

[+KylJoy]

Here is a question: would you guys be open to give the new Intv III like video idea a shot? I can put together a quick demo and then you can decide if it is too much...

I'm in.

[+grips03]

Yes, add next gen video. If you have to remove the classic game cart that is fine.

[+BBWW]

Who among us has just ONE Intellivision? I'd be ok with using a unit just with the expander.

[CatPix]

So, I was thinking about a tehcnical thing and read that :

http://www.intellivisionlives.com/bluesky/hardware/intelli3_tech.html

 

"To save the voice program (which represented quite an investment), it was decided to incorporate Intellivoice into the Intellivision III."

"Of course, if you're going to double the graphic resolution, you really should double the audio quality, so an extra sound chip was added to the design. And, since the input ports of the Intellivision sound chip are used for the hand controller inputs, that meant you could add two more hand controllers to the Intellivision III and design 4-player games."

Are you going to include those as well in?

I was thinking about daisy-chaining the Intellivoice and the Keyboard components, but since all those expansions do would have been included in the same package (the INTV III), mean that the Xpander might act as a keyboard component and an Intellivoice; that would make it being able to read Intellivision carts interesting since if would allow programmers to release standard INTV games with Intellivoice and Keyboard Component support, and convince peopel to get it because they could play their Intellivoice and Keyboard games. That migh mean planning to have joystick inputs on the expansion, however.

 

But if you plan to do the INTV III, you will have to incluse those, I guess

I suppose, at least the Keyboard component, as what it really does is adding and extra AY chip and extra ports. I'm not sure someone will program a game that will use the synthetiser keyboard ot the alphanumerical keyboard, or 4 player games, so you might ditch the extra input idea. Not sure about the Intellivoice.

But making the Xpander double as an Intellivoice and Keyboard Component combo might attract more people. Of course, I guess compatibility might prove being troublesome.

Edited July 6, 2017 by CatPix

[JohnPCAE]

I admit I'm a bit confused as to how one would "improve" the video and yet still maintain the Intellivision character. As far as I know, there are only two ways to modify the video: the video MUX pin and the video replacement pin (which the System Changer uses). The former lets you do what I'm doing in the "Bird's Nest" thread, which lets you increase the intensity of any existing graphics (though I want to do some experimenting to see if some colorization is possible -- I think it might be under some circumstances). The latter lets you do whatever you want, but then it sort of ceases to be an Intellivision as the STIC is now not being used at all.

[mr_me]

I admit I'm a bit confused as to how one would "improve" the video and yet still maintain the Intellivision character. As far as I know, there are only two ways to modify the video: the video MUX pin and the video replacement pin (which the System Changer uses). The former lets you do what I'm doing in the "Bird's Nest" thread, which lets you increase the intensity of any existing graphics (though I want to do some experimenting to see if some colorization is possible -- I think it might be under some circumstances). The latter lets you do whatever you want, but then it sort of ceases to be an Intellivision as the STIC is now not being used at all.

If the background color is black can't you add your own colour on the "video Mux" pin?

[1980gamer]

Intellivision III specs is the way to go.

 

With Multi carts available and cheap Intillivoice modules around, you can limit port wear easy enough.

 

Anyone concerned about cart port wearing issues can send me your system changers. My gift to you!

[+nurmix]

Things are getting a bit confused with names here, so a little clarification...

 

Several of you are mentioning "INTV III", which makes it sound like you're talking about the INTV System III (which as we know was just a standard Intellivision with an LED power light released by INTV Corporation), and not about the unreleased Mattel Intellivision III - which is actually the thing we are talking about.

 

And the "Keyboard Component" has been referenced when what was actually meant was the ECS (as far as adding a second AY-3-8914 sound chip and having 2 additional controller ports goes). I really like the idea of the Expander having an additional sound chip, and being able to 'replace' the ECS, but that may be asking for too much, or going in a different direction than Opcode is thinking, but only they can answer that.

 

 

 

Sent from my Keyboard Component using Jack's Conversational Intelli-talk cassette

[CatPix]

Well from what I posted, the unreleased Intellivision III would have had that extra sound chip, so if he want to do the INTV III as planned, Ocode will have to include it into the Xpander, as well as the Intellivoice.

Now he can of course decide to focus only on the video part, and say that games that want to use the left out options can be made compatible by hooking an Intellivoice and a ECS before the Xpander, but it sounds like a mess that no programmer will bother to use, a source of possible bugs and a source of crashes because it's going to be unstable and take a lot of room.

[opcode]

The Intellivision III we discussing is the unreleased Intv III by Mattel, not the Intv System III, which is basically Intv I with the power LED.

Problem is, we don't have very detailed specs on the Intv III, so we have to guesstimate and do something that makes sense for the time period.

 

Truth is, I try not to decide things in a comitê because from my experience you never can't get everybody to agree, you start losing focus, etc.

On the other hand it is good to get some feedback. For example, how about A/V outputs in the module? Problem is, you won't be able to use those for regular Intv games.

And how about extra controllers inputs?

[mr_me]

Detailed Intellivision III specs here. http://papaintellivision.com/docIntv3.php

 

Can you save some money with a USB power supply and skipping the Intellivision altogether. The Intellivision III was never planned as an add-on.

 

I like the idea of a Keyboard Component emulator plug-in to the Intellivision. It could run Jack Lalanne, Spelling Challenge, and Super Football. The four track tape drive would be emulated on an SD card. You'd have to find a copy of the Keyboard Component Exec.