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Could the Jag Do Decent Ports of NeoGeo and CPS-2


christo930

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It's well known what happened with the 3DO Doom, which is an extreme example of a poor port that didn't need to be poor. From the coder herself: https://kotaku.com/heres-why-the-3do-port-of-doom-sucked-1671138312

 

It's obviously very difficult to find examples of ports that take advantage of a particular system's strengths across multiple systems. You're generally better off comparing the best examples of similar games from a particular system.

Aha - that explains the shitty port. She was coding, not in the kitchen :D

 

P.S.

Any white knights can pre-emptively f**k off because my wife laughed at that.

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We need a stickied "Jaguar theories and speculations thread" to contain all this stuff.

 

I agree, madman :)

 

Then people can talk freely about their crazy ideas, dreams, comparison videos, what if's and other stuff that's Jaguar related, without interference from "sane" people (like me? :ponder: ) who aren't affected by the fumes and like to talk about facts not (Jaguar) fiction.

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Aha - that explains the shitty port. She was coding, not in the kitchen :D

 

P.S.

Any white knights can pre-emptively f**k off because my wife laughed at that.

 

 

#GamerGate2 !!!!

 

Just kidding, I don't even know what the first gamer gate was about... but someone got offended, and some nerds were involved.

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Aha - that explains the shitty port. She was coding, not in the kitchen :D

 

P.S.

Any white knights can pre-emptively f**k off because my wife laughed at that.

 

Actually, to completely ruin the joke, she was still Bill Heineman at that point. She didn't transition until 2003. She's worked on some legendary stuff over the years and is still active.

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Actually, to completely ruin the joke, she was still Bill Heineman at that point. She didn't transition until 2003. She's worked on some legendary stuff over the years and is still active.

That's a good spot to end the subject and get back on track with the original subject (aka any jokes about it will be deleted).

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  • 3 weeks later...

It's well known what happened with the 3DO Doom, which is an extreme example of a poor port that didn't need to be poor. From the coder herself: https://kotaku.com/heres-why-the-3do-port-of-doom-sucked-1671138312

 

It's obviously very difficult to find examples of ports that take advantage of a particular system's strengths across multiple systems. You're generally better off comparing the best examples of similar games from a particular system.

Well according to his story there was apparently attempt at a completely new game with more levels.

 

If anything that makes me wonder how technical doom was in the first place, well maybe not really DOOM is mostly a 2D game. Apparently Carmack himself made the jaguar version.

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If anything that makes me wonder how technical doom was in the first place, well maybe not really DOOM is mostly a 2D game.

Would you happen to have a YT channel with some other stand-up sketches of this calibre ?

 

Which town&date you got the next show ? I'd pay $50 for an hour of entertainment like this !

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..... the plot thickens ..... battle of intellects ensues .....

who will have the last saying .... GIFaroo'N'3DO-Man or Spew3DTechMinusAFrameOrTwoHereAndThere-Man ....

 

This is gonna be epic .... the last time something like this happened was Frankestein meets the WolfMan ... truly a classic.

 

 

Nahhh I'm just being asinine, please keep with the argument.

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The Jaguar total ROM bandwidth is 10.6MB/sec (32-bit ROM at 2.66MHz/376ns)

 

actually the maximum, tested and working, ROM bandwidth of the Jaguar is ~21MB/sec (the skunkboard use it) with 5 clock cycles time.

​But most of the ROM cartridge (all ?) use the slowest access with 10 clock cycles time, ~10.6MB/sec

 

​Oh, and there is the FASROM mode with only 2 clock cycles time and a bandwidth of ~53MB/sec !!

....but this mode is untested and maybe it does not work... :(

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actually the maximum, tested and working, ROM bandwidth of the Jaguar is ~21MB/sec

The access time in this mode is too short for early-90s bulk mask ROM, so it would not work. (No problem for 21st century Skunkboards, of course.)

 

​Oh, and there is the FASROM mode with only 2 clock cycles time and a bandwidth of ~53MB/sec !!

....but this mode is untested and maybe it does not work... :(

I tested it. It does not work. The buffers inside the Jaguar are too slow.
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The access time in this mode is too short for early-90s bulk mask ROM, so it would not work. (No problem for 21st century Skunkboards, of course.)

 

I tested it. It does not work. The buffers inside the Jaguar are too slow.

 

Actually my sentence was wrong when i said "maximum ROM bandwidth of the Jaguar is ~21MB/sec (the skunkboard use it) with 5 clock cycles time."

​I should have said : "maximum ROM bandwidth of the Jaguar is ~21MB/sec, with 5 clock cycles time (the skunkboard use it)." Or something like that...

Because the Skunkboard has only 16bit data bus. So even with 5 cycles rom access, the bandwidth of the Skunboard is only ~10,6MB/sec.

​how did you You tested the FASTROM mode ? Do you have a analyzer ? if not, you can only perform simple test. And with only 2 cycles, you need very very fast memory. Something like 60ns or less !

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​how did you You tested the FASTROM mode ? Do you have a analyzer ?

Yes, I used a LogicPort analyzer with 2ns resolution to design the Skunkboard. I tested all the memory controller settings to make sure there was plenty of margin for my 16-bit bus trick. Edited by kskunk
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Ultra Vortek is a pretty solid MK clone.

 

It's not about whether a programmer can get CPS2 port to run on the Jaguar. I mean it's a hard console to program for. The question is it capable, and unless the 3DO has a super chip that makes it 2x stronger than the Jaguar the Jaguar should be capable of running CPS2 games.

No it's not (ultra vortek). It's so bad. I can't believe I paid for that game when it came out. One of the most hated fighting games. Seriously, the gameplay on that was horid.

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I don't mind Ultra Vortek, but at the end of the day it severely misses the mark on what made the gameplay in similar games fun. Ultra Vortek is extremely light on depth, much more so than the games it took influence from (and it could be argued those games were already pretty shallow to begin with). It is cool to look at, but it doesn't help that it has performance issues that similar arcade games (or even Kasumi Ninja for that matter) don't have.

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Jaguar can pull off amazing remakes of classic games in HiRes, that would look great even on modern FullHD TVs. Keep the spirit and gameplay 8-bit, maybe add few effects, just move to HiRes. Example - classic Pole Position in 1536x200 ? Hell, yeah! I'd pay $100 for that on jag...

 

Hell, I'd like to have Atari Games/Tengen's library they provided to the Lynx and the Genesis on the Jaguar. But alas, Atari Corp and Atari Games Corp were feuding over back royalties at the time so once things were patched up again between the two, it was too late.

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Its arguable which has the better library of games. But i feel the Jaguar has more interesting exclusives. Also, most of the game that appeared on both systems, are better on the Jaguar. And there is of course the homebrew releases, the Jag has tons of stuff, 32X unfortunately has close to nothing (Chilly Willy were are youuuu?).

 

Sucked to have either of them as your primary next-gen game system BITD, but at least the 32X had the awesome Sega Genesis library to fall back into.

 

And that bastage of a system also got T-MEK and the Jag didn't!

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The Neo Geo had giant sprites and excellent scaling and lots of colors and sound. Same thing with the CPS-2 arcade system. I was wondering if the Jag could bring home near arcade perfect ports of these games and if Atari could have made that happen. Though the NeoGeo had absolutely stupid rom sizes, from what I understand, they were very deliberately bloated. Graphics can be heavily compressed. These are just 2 of the more popular arcade systems of the time. Though they doubtless had a lot of good games, the Genesis and SNES just couldn't bring the arcade home in most cases. The Genesis had a 64 color limitation and neither system could handle very large sprites. If Atari could have gotten some of these licenses, could the Jag bring the arcade home in a much more faithful port? Like could it have handled the zooming that the NeoGeo did with games like Samaria Shodown? Could it have given us a faithful port of Metal Slug (and the sequels)? What about 3d? Could it do something along the line of Virtua Racing on par wity the 32X?

 

 

What about ports from the Sharp X68000 library? How does the Jag measure up to all of the Sharp's special graphics hardware?

 

Thought I'd ask since someone's been porting some of the Sharp's games over to the Atari Falcon030. The Falcon030 doesn't have great video capabilities - compared to the Sharp or the Jag - but it does have a 68030 and the Motorola DSP which is apparently being used heavily at the expense of audio.

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What about ports from the Sharp X68000 library? How does the Jag measure up to all of the Sharp's special graphics hardware?

 

Thought I'd ask since someone's been porting some of the Sharp's games over to the Atari Falcon030. The Falcon030 doesn't have great video capabilities - compared to the Sharp or the Jag - but it does have a 68030 and the Motorola DSP which is apparently being used heavily at the expense of audio.

The Sharp X68000 landscape is way too much fragmented (low end with 10 MHz 68000 and high end with 68060@75 Mhz, plus Cirrus Logic accelerator) to make any kind of meaningful comparison (other than for the low end).

 

Falcon, however, while in 2D it can't match the jag's Object Processor, is very close in basic 3D area (where you use just a framebuffer of 320x200 bytes):

- 68030 @ 16 MHz with its small caches is quite superior to jag's 68000

- DSP @ 32 MHz vs jag's 26 MHz

- FP coprocessor 68882 @ 16 MHz

- Blitter : for simple 3D, you need literally less than 1% of jag's Blitter features - all you need is blit a memory region with a color. Considering the issues with 64-bit blit on jaguar, majority of games use just default 8-bit blit, which is certainly totally comparable in speed to Falcon's 16 MHz Blitter

- of course, in HighRes 3D (and if you make the effort and fight the bugs and get 64-bit blit working), jaguar has no match there, but in something lowres like 320x200, it's very close

 

14 MB of RAM on Falcon makes for a whole new world in terms of 3D engine design, compared to 2 MB on jag. Especially now, for homebrew, there's little reason to target anything else other than 14 MB + FPU combo. Majority of people, as can be seen on forums, rarely whip up the physical box anyway, and just run everything in emulator anyway.

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Citations please.

 

 

Will do.

 

In the meantime there is no evidence out there that lb for lb the Jag won't smoke the Falcon.

 

While everyone is waiting we can look at the available evidence.

 

Towers II, letterboxed on the Falcon compared to full screen on Jag.

 

Doom, quick and dirty port on the Jag, 15fps fullscreen.

 

After years of work on Falcon, Doom is 9-13fps, letterboxed.

Edited by JagChris
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