Incognito v2?

[tschak909]

sigh. why do people insist on trying to cling onto media that is becoming more difficult to procure? (CF cards)

 

I can walk into just about any store and pick up SD cards..this is becoming less the case with CF (no, don't argue, you have no argument.)

 

By this logic, we should plop a floppy disk connector on it...

 

-Thom

[+mytek]

sigh. why do people insist on trying to cling onto media that is becoming more difficult to procure? (CF cards)

 

I can walk into just about any store and pick up SD cards..this is becoming less the case with CF (no, don't argue, you have no argument.)

 

By this logic, we should plop a floppy disk connector on it...

 

-Thom

I won't argue with you, because you are correct from a modern viewpoint.

 

I will say this... using your logic, why even use a 'real' A8 when you can do so through emulation. For that matter why even use it at all, when there are much better, faster, and well supported modern computer systems. And in your own words, and with a bit of embellishment "Sigh why do people insist on trying to cling onto these old Ataris that are becoming more difficult to procure?" I can go down to Walmart, Best Buy, Office Depot, ect. and pick up a PC or MAC, but I can't find an Atari at any of these places.

 

Just kidding

 

I for one don't like to use floppy drives or cassettes even though they have their rightful place in the retro scene. And it's not because the media is hard to get (which it is to some degree), but I just don't like the slow speed or the shelf space it takes to store the media. So I prefer either a CF or SD solution even though it's not the way it was done in the A8's era. Although some could argue that it was perfectly feasible to have had a CF drive just before the fall of Atari, since I do believe all the pieces were available to do so.

 

I implemented CF tech in my designs because it was the simplest way to go while still having fast parallel access. This is the same reasoning that went into my choice of PS/2 vs. USB for the mouse and keyboard. I tend to work within my comfort zone, utilizing as much of my current knowledge, and recycling existing code where possible. Yes I still try to learn new things, but I'm just not as fast or as good as I once was in this regard. However working with Jon, we did come up with a very robust, yet simple CF implementation in the 1088 series which also works quite well with the SD to CF adapters, so you can still have your SD memory cards if that's what you really want.

[+mytek]

You know if someone really wants to, there is nothing stopping anyone other than Lotharek or Candle from developing either the next gen, or even a reproduction of the Incognito. If I had the skills and/or the inclination I certainly wouldn't be waiting around for however long it's been . And judging by the postings, and what used ones go for on eBay it sure seems like there is still a good market for a device like this.

 

Just saying, maybe it's time for a new product developer to jump into the vacuum that is the Incognito V2 and get er done .

[Faicuai]

sigh. why do people insist on trying to cling onto media that is becoming more difficult to procure? (CF cards)

 

I can walk into just about any store and pick up SD cards..this is becoming less the case with CF (no, don't argue, you have no argument.)

 

By this logic, we should plop a floppy disk connector on it...

 

-Thom

Because SD cards are a JOKE in the durability department compared to the much more solid, capable and robust CF cards.

 

I use both SD and CF cards, regularly, and in multiple applications (including digital photography, SW development, etc) and I regularly get broken / lost Read / Write tabs, broken / disintegrated slot-guides / separators (in-between connection tracks on the card), unable to read / mount on some readers because of lost tabs, etc. In short, just shit.

 

NEVER had a single problem with CF cards, and the very oldest I have still continue to operate nicely.

 

Incognito (nor any other solution of this kind) really needs SD cards. Make things smaller is always good, but making them shittier along the way... that's the chinese way (not mine, though).

Edited November 20, 2018 by Faicuai

[adamchevy]

I use CF cards everyday at work. The same 256mb cards have been working for over 10 years now with multiple uses each day. Truly they are amazingly durable.

 

I would be very interested in an Incognito V2.

Edited November 20, 2018 by adamchevy

[damosan]

I'd like a Incognito v2 board as well. Perhaps two.

[Mr Robot]

Someone should ask Candle if he wants to produce some more. He hasn't been around for a while, is he married to Lotharek or open to working with someone else?

[flashjazzcat]

I've been awaiting a pre-production board since March 2017 as I'm supposedly responsible for all or part of the firmware, but I have heard nothing from Candle since January 2018. If anything happens, I will relay here unless Candle posts something himself.

[Mr Robot]

Jan 2018 is the last time he was active here too. Has anyone checked to see if he is OK?

[flashjazzcat]

I asked him numerous questions via PM during the ensuing months, but received no response. It makes dialogue extremely difficult. I have no reason to suppose any other form of communication would elicit a response, and this kind of extended silence is not exactly unprecedented.

[Magic Knight]

Assuming the design gerbers are with Sebastian (Candle) and not available/permissible by others for release for others to batch run(?) - then i think we are at the mercy of Lotharek to produce the Incognito 2.

 

Anyone had any luck with a date for this from Lotharek?

 

Jonathan, i would imagine you would be invited to be handling the PBI/SDX driver on this project?

[flashjazzcat]

I'm not entirely sure of Candle's intentions regarding firmware. I was slated to work on the PBI BIOS, but since the only fully debugged and optimised version of the PBI BIOS is now closely integrated into the unified 'alt' firmware, it would have been more expedient to simply port that firmware to the new hardware. This seems a popular choice with prospective buyers too. Candle was vocally critical of some aspects of the 'alt' firmware, however, so I still have no clue what he proposes to do. I am not especially keen to revert to the previous model (no data directly shared between the main BIOS and the PBI BIOS, no dedicated hard disk settings menu, etc) having spent three years perfecting what we already have.

 

As for the XEX loader: the 'alt' loader is supposedly to be the default offering on SIDE3, and this might suggest a presence on the Incognito 2 as well, although I have no information whatsoever about either device and no prototype boards. So my involvement is somewhat notional at the moment.

[+mytek]

So other than an SD card, what else if anything was changing in the transition from V1 to V2?

 

If that's it, then it would have been sensible to implement the SD card as if it were plugged into one of those SD to CF adapters, leaving everything else the same behind it, in order to maintain compatibility with Jon's ALT Bios. So in other words have a hardware SD/IDE abstraction layer built-in and mapped to the same IDE registers as V1.

[flashjazzcat]

During our most recent (relatively speaking; in 2017) discussions, it seemed that the 6502 was going to drive the SD card directly via SPI. I had no issue making the necessary changes to the PBI BIOS (after all, there are already three build targets, so more aren't a problem), but my initial thought was that it's liable to be slow, even in 4-bit mode. My solution for UNO Cart SIDE emulation (not yet released) and indeed the solution for AVG is an IDE emulation layer which completely abstracts SDIO/SPI from the 6502, making driver development easier and helping performance. Nevertheless, though, AVG and my WIP UNO firmware (which use completely different approaches to IDE emulation) can still only manage ~70 per cent of the bandwidth of an actual IDE device. CF/SD and SD/IDE adapters, meanwhile, show no appreciable performance hit whatsoever (at least as far as I recall: maybe someone from the 1088XEL testing group will correct me on that).

 

The alternative UNO firmware as it stands requires a slightly altered PBI driver owing to the floating data bus, but the uncertainty regarding Incognito 2 and SIDE 3 makes me hesitant to start releasing updates which might have to be pulled or changed later on.

Edited November 21, 2018 by flashjazzcat

[adamchevy]

I cancelled my PlayStation classic Pre-order in anticipation of the incognito V2. I’m pretty sure this was one of Metal Jesus Rocks motivations to cancel as well. It’s also probably why Candle can’t be reached. He’s been to busy over the past 18 months developing the hardware for the PlayStation classic. It can secretly be used as a incognito V2. But that’s going to take a few months to finally be discovered by hackers.

Edited November 21, 2018 by adamchevy

[trent]

Looking at one of these, looks as though it has an FPGA in it. Isn't the lifespan of those 1-5 years? Do I want to mod the internals of my 40 year old 800 with something that will break in a few years? 

[+Stephen]

1 hour ago, trent said:

Looking at one of these, looks as though it has an FPGA in it. Isn't the lifespan of those 1-5 years? Do I want to mod the internals of my 40 year old 800 with something that will break in a few years? 

I've never heard this before.  Any articles to substantiate this claim?

[trent]

5 hours ago, Stephen said:

I've never heard this before.  Any articles to substantiate this claim?

Fair question, I was basing this off something I remembered reading a long while ago that FPGA lifespan is similar to that of PROMS.  I should have gone looking for the answer before asking here. After some searching I can see 1-5 years is certainly wrong, but will still likely fail before the other chips in my 800 ?

[jamm]

1 hour ago, trent said:

Fair question, I was basing this off something I remembered reading a long while ago that FPGA lifespan is similar to that of PROMS.  I should have gone looking for the answer before asking here. After some searching I can see 1-5 years is certainly wrong, but will still likely fail before the other chips in my 800 ?

I think you're misconstruing FPGA configuration/write cycles, which can be limited depending on the type of FPGA, with lifespan of the device in general use.  If you're not frequently re-configuring the device, then FPGA lifespan shouldn't really be a concern.  For example, the popular Altera Cyclone V used in MiSTer has been stress tested to the equivalent of over 250 years without failure.

[_The Doctor__]

I remember reading about the life cycles, configuration/write, and storage longevity... in reading it appeared that there were two areas of real concern, that being configuration writes and non use storage. If configured and in use, they lasted seemingly forever. If stored with no power or written to quite a bit, not so much...

 

Who knows though, this stuff changes all the time and varies depend on make and model... I'm sure what's being used has been carefully selected and won't suffer from any of those concerns. We have top notch people doing this stuff for the Atari community.

Edited January 21, 2021 by _The Doctor__

[candle]

flash memory has a lifespan (for data stored within) of 20 years, meaning if you don't update flash-based device within 20 years you might find its not working anymore, but if you do, counter resets, and you have another 20 years of not worrying about it

pure fpga are sram based, and they load all their logic on boot (stored usually in flash memory) so same rules apply

 

incognito 2 had flash-based cpld, same as it was in original incognito board, but with hardware spi register done externally

unfortunatly, early in development i found that this device was too small for every function i wanted to implement, and it was redesigned once again, and renamed to incognito 3

currently, project is at stall, but i suspect i'll be moving thigs forward this year

 

[_The Doctor__]

perfect summation and thank for a quick succinct refresher on this stuff. now I don't have to read any of this stuff again...

[Mrarkus]

1 hour ago, candle said:

flash memory has a lifespan (for data stored within) of 20 years, meaning if you don't update flash-based device within 20 years you might find its not working anymore, but if you do, counter resets, and you have another 20 years of not worrying about it

pure fpga are sram based, and they load all their logic on boot (stored usually in flash memory) so same rules apply

 

incognito 2 had flash-based cpld, same as it was in original incognito board, but with hardware spi register done externally

unfortunatly, early in development i found that this device was too small for every function i wanted to implement, and it was redesigned once again, and renamed to incognito 3

currently, project is at stall, but i suspect i'll be moving thigs forward this year

 

 

If I can encourage the development of Incognito 3 in any way, please let me know  That with SCCC 2 with built-in Sophia 2 would easily create the best A8. IMHO.