What is the installed VBXE base in 2017?

[Mr Robot]

I'd imagine that with all these 1088XEL's being created, the number of VBXE equipped Atari's will be going up quite a bit.

 

Did I read somewhere that Rapidus+VBXE+U1MB was really hard to get all working together?

[flashjazzcat]

VBXE is not a required component of the 1088XEL (the s-video output is excellent, and I'm not even sure anyone's tested a VBXE in a 1088XEL yet), and the Sophia video upgrade is proving quite a popular alternative.

 

When it was first released, Rapidus barely worked at all with U1MB, but Rapidus firmware updates eventually rectified all the issues. You may still run into issues with Phi2/bus capacitance with a lot of upgrades present alongside Rapidus, but the combo basically works.

 

Note: no-one's tested Rapuidus in a 1088XEL yet either, as far as I know.

Edited January 26, 2018 by flashjazzcat

[+mytek]

I'd imagine that with all these 1088XEL's being created, the number of VBXE equipped Atari's will be going up quite a bit.

 

Did I read somewhere that Rapidus+VBXE+U1MB was really hard to get all working together?

Ditto to everything FJC said in response to this question. And I can personally attest that Sophia (either the RGB or DVI version) is a great alternative to the stock video, although with Bryan's UAV that looks very good as well. However with the latest DVI version of Sophia, this finally gives us a digital TV interface which from a quality standpoint cannot be beat.

[Mr Robot]

I have Bryans UAV in my 800xl and it is indeed excellent. I've got 2 1088xel's to build and I plan to stick a VBXE in one of them, I was sure I'd read on AA somewhere (in fact from FJC) that the three boards together were always a bit of a mission to get working reliably (that was in a 130XE). It's a lot of extra cash to blow on something that maybe wont work well but if I'm going to go all out and pimp one of these I will probably get a rapidus too!

 

 

I need to read more about Sophia, maybe for the other one.

[flashjazzcat]

VBXE has never had any issues alongside Rapidus and I won't have said otherwise, but the problems I've talked about regarding U1MB and Rapidus generally concerned machines which had VBXE installed as well (simply because people who can afford Rapidus usually decide to opt for a "full beans" upgrade which also includes U1MB and VBXE). I made a few videos last summer which covered such souped up machines, and the work inevitably culminated in extended tweaking and debugging sessions in which Phi2 stability mods were attempted prior to shipping the machine back to its owner. The clients were ultimately very happy with what they got, anyway, and since everything was done live on camera, there's no arguing the toss as to whether things were fitted correctly.

[+mytek]

I have Bryans UAV in my 800xl and it is indeed excellent. I've got 2 1088xel's to build and I plan to stick a VBXE in one of them, I was sure I'd read on AA somewhere (in fact from FJC) that the three boards together were always a bit of a mission to get working reliably (that was in a 130XE). It's a lot of extra cash to blow on something that maybe wont work well but if I'm going to go all out and pimp one of these I will probably get a rapidus too!

 

 

I need to read more about Sophia, maybe for the other one.

 

Please keep in mind that a Rapidus install (as well as a VBXE) has never been attempted in a 1088XEL. The 1088XEL is unique and apart from any other A8 ever made, does not use the same glue logic as such, and for all we know might not be 100% compatible with these upgrades. So in other words, do so at your own risk. And because of the high cost involved, I would have a back-up plan or alternative destination for these upgrades if it doesn't pan out in your 1088XEL.

 

From a fit point of view, it does look like it might be possible judging by this photo I found on a polish site, although that is not a current version VBXE board. The 1088XEL would require Lotharek's VBXE-XE version in order to fit properly in the available space

 

 

I also suspect that the Rapdus totally covers the MPBI port on the 1088XEL, which would make it difficult to utilize for something like the XEL-CF IDE board, and that port is also the source for some of the extra signals required for the VBXE and the Rapidus.

[Mr Robot]

VBXE has never had any issues alongside Rapidus and I won't have said otherwise, but the problems I've talked about regarding U1MB and Rapidus generally concerned machines which had VBXE installed as well (simply because people who can afford Rapidus usually decide to opt for a "full beans" upgrade which also includes U1MB and VBXE). I made a few videos last summer which covered such souped up machines, and the work inevitably culminated in extended tweaking and debugging sessions in which Phi2 stability mods were attempted prior to shipping the machine back to its owner. The clients were ultimately very happy with what they got, anyway, and since everything was done live on camera, there's no arguing the toss as to whether things were fitted correctly.

 

This is the comment I was talking about, http://atariage.com/forums/topic/270929-fully-upgraded-system-and-side2-partitioningatr-swapping/?do=findComment&comment=3866835which as you say is about the rapidus in concert with the most popular addons which is what I said when I was talking about them being a bit of a mission to get working together.

 

It makes me a bit wary of trying it in a 1088xel, especially as you say, it's never been tested before.

 

It's going to take me a while (chronologically and financially) to get the two I'm building done so I won't be testing any time soon!

[Mr Robot]

 

Please keep in mind that a Rapidus install (as well as a VBXE) has never been attempted in a 1088XEL. The 1088XEL is unique and apart from any other A8 ever made, does not use the same glue logic as such, and for all we know might not be 100% compatible with these upgrades. So in other words, do so at your own risk. And because of the high cost involved, I would have a back-up plan or alternative destination for these upgrades if it doesn't pan out in your 1088XEL.

 

Yes, step one is to get a couple of working 1088xel's then buy the addons over time to pimp them out, I'd do vbxe first, I have a destination in mind if it doesn't work in the 1088. If that goes well, then a rapidus as well. I understand the risks of them not having been tested (although I did follow along with the design process making space for them and giving them headers) so *fingers crossed* I won't come hunting you down if I buy something niche, plug it into something else niche with another three niche boards already in it and find that they don't all play well together.

 

1088XEL + U1MB + UAV + VBXE + RAPIDUS... What could go wrong‽ Maybe inadvertently create Skynet I suppose!

[+mytek]

 

Yes, step one is to get a couple of working 1088xel's then buy the addons over time to pimp them out, I'd do vbxe first, I have a destination in mind if it doesn't work in the 1088. If that goes well, then a rapidus as well. I understand the risks of them not having been tested (although I did follow along with the design process making space for them and giving them headers) so *fingers crossed* I won't come hunting you down if I buy something niche, plug it into something else niche with another three niche boards already in it and find that they don't all play well together.

 

1088XEL + U1MB + UAV + VBXE + RAPIDUS... What could go wrong‽ Maybe inadvertently create Skynet I suppose!

 

Yes the VBXE would be a nice addition, assuming it works ok in the 1088XEL (most likely will, but without a test that's just a guess). I was hoping someone on the BETA Test Team was going to do this by now, but so far no dice. Although I do know at least one member that said he would, so that might be happening pretty soon.

 

The main reason that the Rapidus has not been tested on the 1088XEL, has to do with cost. At nearly $225 (considering shipping), it was hard for me to justify the purchase for merely an accelerator. That's more than the cost of parts to build a complete 1088XEL, which at least gives you a full featured computer for your money. Then there is the compatibility aspect to consider, as in what's going to actually take advantage of it, and what's going to be unusable in an accelerated state. I can see it being very cool for the person that wants to program in native 65816, but for most people it's just a novelty as in look what I got under the hood.

[Mr Robot]

I'm wanting to start writing reviews of all these hardware addons, collect together documentation firmwares and stuff, put it all online in a sensible place for newbies like me. Rapidus will definitely be the last thing I buy to test, but it is on the list. I'm a big fan of the A8 homebrew and demo scene, I want to support it as much as it supports the Atari heritage, give it a bit more visibility and hopefully make it a bit more popular.

[+mytek]

One last thing I wanted to add to this discussion. When looking at Rapidus, I can't help but wonder why not have made it be an all-in-one situation? It seems like most of the elements are already there to have made it possible to create a single board that combines a 65816, linear memory, traditional expanded memory, acceleration, U1MB features, and enhanced video output akin to the VBXE. By doing it in this way, a lot of the fiddling that is required to get these 3 boards to run in concert with each other could have been eliminated, and probably a lot less would have been involved in installation. Just a thought .

[flashjazzcat]

This is the comment I was talking about, http://atariage.com/forums/topic/270929-fully-upgraded-system-and-side2-partitioningatr-swapping/?do=findComment&comment=3866835which as you say is about the rapidus in concert with the most popular addons which is what I said when I was talking about them being a bit of a mission to get working together.

Yep: 'most ubiquitous' was really intended as a shorthand for Ultimate 1MB there, since it's become almost the default modern RAM upgrade, which is not to downplay the significance of anything which came before or after it. While VBXE and U1MB are commonly installed together, VBXE tends to be more of a 'Marmite' upgrade (for much the same reason that Rapidus divides opinion as to what constitutes a 'real' Atari, what upgrades completely change the character of the machine, etc). If I've done 20-30 U1MB installs over the past five years, I've done half that many VBXE installations. The Rapidus installations can be counted on the fingers of one hand. Rapidus' lack of a PORTB-style RAM upgrade accessible by the 6502 is probably partly what's created the co-depency with U1MB (even when not running in 65C816 mode with access to MBs of linear RAM, you still want some extra RAM).

 

As for testing Rapidus with the 1088XEL: I'm in a prime position to do so and since my Rapidus board is still not permanently installed in an Atari, I'll try to give it a go and make a video of it soon, time permitting. Indeed, it would make sense to do so before releasing the final 1088XEL U1MB firmware (which has been on the brink of deployment for a week or so), since if Rapidus is a total bust with the 1088XEL, I'll remove the dedicated menu option intended for toggling the Rapidus core on and off. I must say, though, that there are some logistical considerations (as Michael infers), particularly with regard to installing Rapidus and VBXE in the 1088XEL at the same time, which may yet make the whole idea a complete non-starter (XEL-CF in the MPBI slot next to Rapidus, for instance: forget about it). But still, it should make for interesting viewing.

 

Finally, it's high time I tested VBXE in my 1088XEL. I had originally intended to install one on a permanent basis, but I became a bit browned off late last year when I realised that one of the VBXEs (of slightly dubious provenance) already installed in one my A8s had a previously undiscovered fault which ultimately rendered the thing fit for the trash. One of my two 'spare' (Lotharek) VBXEs subsequently took its place in that machine, while my other spare has a long-standing advance booking to be fitted in a 1200XL. Nevertheless, I think it's time it was tested in the 1088XEL; after all, we want no nasty surprises further down the road.

[flashjazzcat]

Tried Rapidus in the 1088XEL this evening, and while it basically works, SIDE2 was pretty much completely clobbered in 65C816 mode (I flashed the SIDE loader and PBI BIOS since Rapidus blocks the MPBI connector required for the XEL-CF adapter). Couldn't read the CF card properly and the card removal sensor didn't work. I guess this is basically the result of the system being overloaded with boards (although Rapidus is the only non-essential item installed).

 

Perhaps XEL-CF will work better with Rapidus... I can't say, since I can't easily test it. On the basis of this single installation and some brief tests, I'd say if you do want to have a go at installing Rapidus in a 1088XEL and you want to use it with SIDE or XEL-CF, expect to spend time experimenting with various stability mods... something I don't propose to attempt on my 1088XEL, since it works perfectly as it is (and the SIDE loader worked fine with the SIDE2 as soon as I removed Rapidus).

[flashjazzcat]

Good news. I discovered I'd introduced a sneaky address wrapping bug into the loader which caused cluster number errors unless wrapping was forced ON in the Rapidus setup menu. I've fixed that, so the loader works again at 20MHz now.

 

The SIDE2 card removal flag issue is a bit trickier since I observed the exact same issue on my 130XE once I'd moved the Rapidus board to that machine, although in the XE it was completely rectified by replacing 74LS08 with an F08. Sadly the fix isn't so easy on the 1088XEL since it already uses F08. I'm not especially keen on trying to work around this in software, since it's not really a bug in the same way that the address wrapping problem was, but at least it looks like SIDE2 and XEL-CF have a reasonable chance of working well in a 1088XEL equipped with Rapidus.

 

I hope these findings are helpful to Mr Robot.

Edited January 29, 2018 by flashjazzcat

[Mr Robot]

Thanks FJC, that's really useful info!

I can see it's going to be a bit trickier than I hoped to get a Rapidus running in a 1088XEL, I will leave that until the last thing I do, after building two of them and getting VBXE running.

 

I can't find much software at all that won't run if I don't have a rapidus so I don't see any need to rush it.

[+mytek]

I can't find much software at all that won't run if I don't have a rapidus so I don't see any need to rush it.

 

That was also the reason I eventually gave up on trying to accommodate the Rapidus in the 1088XEL board layout, since I felt it was much more important to provide an easy and cheap compact flash drive via the MPBI. Of course I could have shoved the MPBI port way over to the left and perhaps gained enough clearance, but no matter how small the XEL-CF board turned out to be, it would have still overhung into Rapidus territory. And then there was the issue of providing for a cart tunnel with cart door opening fingers, which pretty much mandated that the MPBI get located where it is. Finally I looked at the situation from the same viewpoint as your last posting, and said to myself "why am I beating my head up trying to provide for something like this?". Also looking at the direction of the 1088XEL project of being one to create a very small footprint motherboard in an industry standard form factor, while trying to stick to the original Atari VLSI chips, thus capturing what makes an A8 and Atari, Rapidus was never a part of this original concept. And bottom line is if you really want acceleration and 65816 capabilities in a Mini-ITX form factor, that's what the EclaireXL appears to be bringing to the table from an FPGA implementation. Which unless I'm mistaken doesn't cost much more than a Rapidus all by itself . And of course you also have the option of installing a Rapidus in a stock A8 computer, if you absolutely need that authentic feel .

 

Boy have we ever gotten off topic .

[flashjazzcat]

I can see it's going to be a bit trickier than I hoped to get a Rapidus running in a 1088XEL, I will leave that until the last thing I do, after building two of them and getting VBXE running.

Lest I seem in any way biased, I must say that this evening's Rapidus tests look even better than last night's. Having flashed the fixed SIDE loader and PBI BIOS to the 1088XEL, things appear to work well, although the whole setup naturally needs days of thorough tests before it can be pronounced free of glitches. At first I tried an NCR CPU (which works so well in Rapidus on the 130XE) in the 1088XEL, and I was getting a lot of player/missile garbage on the SIDE loader display. I put back the CPU which usually runs in the 1088XEL and the display fixed itself, and even the card removal sensor appears to work now.

 

So aside from the logistical issues of using Rapidus and XEL-CF together (which could probably be completely overcome by a short length of ribbon cable), it appears that Rapidus can work well (even with a SIDE cartridge) in a 1088XEL if one is prepared to spend time trying a few different CPUs. Indeed, since I've experienced issues in the past attaining a stable Rapidus system on upgraded Atari hardware, it would be nice to think the 1088XEL could present the most stable U1MB-equipped host platform for the accelerator.

Edited January 29, 2018 by flashjazzcat

[Mr Robot]

I have an NTSC 800XL with a Stereo Pokey mod and a U1MB in it and I plan to get a PAL 130XE and similarly upgrade that. Both of them will have SIDE2 (or SIDE3 if Lotharek ever releases it, his updated website has less info on it about that now than the old one did!). For me that's as much as I can upgrade an Atari 8-Bit and still call it an 'Atari'. Putting a VBXE into one of those (or a rapidus) is a step too far for me, it feels less authentic some how.

 

The 1088XEL is far from being an Atari to me, it has the VLSI chips and runs Atari software but it's somehow not the same to my Retro lovin' brain. This of course means I'm happy to further mess with it, its a whole new thing to me. So VBXE, Rapidus, OPL sound cards are expansion options I'm happy to consider now. Ideally I'd like to end up with a machine that will run anything the Atari Demoscene can throw at it and a couple of 'real' Ataris for nostalgias sake. At the moment, the production OPL card doesn't exist, the Rapidus runs a XZ emulator, (also introduces some timing issues into some games and does math a bit faster) I can't find anything else written specifically for it. The VBXE has a bunch of scene art and a couple of enhanced demos (also Rick Dangerous VBXE is looking _very_ nice). I can see the value in getting a VBXE, but the rest... I can wait

 

Did I mention VBXE enough to drag this back on topic?

[+mytek]

I have an NTSC 800XL with a Stereo Pokey mod and a U1MB in it and I plan to get a PAL 130XE and similarly upgrade that. Both of them will have SIDE2 (or SIDE3 if Lotharek ever releases it, his updated website has less info on it about that now than the old one did!). For me that's as much as I can upgrade an Atari 8-Bit and still call it an 'Atari'. Putting a VBXE into one of those (or a rapidus) is a step too far for me, it feels less authentic some how.

 

The 1088XEL is far from being an Atari to me, it has the VLSI chips and runs Atari software but it's somehow not the same to my Retro lovin' brain. This of course means I'm happy to further mess with it, its a whole new thing to me. So VBXE, Rapidus, OPL sound cards are expansion options I'm happy to consider now. Ideally I'd like to end up with a machine that will run anything the Atari Demoscene can throw at it and a couple of 'real' Ataris for nostalgias sake. At the moment, the production OPL card doesn't exist, the Rapidus runs a XZ emulator, (also introduces some timing issues into some games and does math a bit faster) I can't find anything else written specifically for it. The VBXE has a bunch of scene art and a couple of enhanced demos (also Rick Dangerous VBXE is looking _very_ nice). I can see the value in getting a VBXE, but the rest... I can wait

 

Did I mention VBXE enough to drag this back on topic?

 

Yep 3 times a charm and you mentioned it at least 5 times .

 

I did try pretty hard to allow for a VBXE in the 1088XEL, and as far as I can tell getting one set-up with the XE adapter should do the trick. And since there isn't a Freddie chip involved, it'll get interfaced to the oscillator same as an XL, but you won't have to remove any components in the process (interfaces through J20). The other signals it needs can be gotten from the MPBI port (that's part of the reason a pass-thru connector is specified for the XEL-CF). Four signals are required, with two available from the left (VB & /IRQ) and two from the right side (/EXT & /CI) of the MPBI. Two 2-position Dupont female terminal housings can be utilized to pick off those signals. If you don't plan to go through the on-board DIN-13, then /CSYNC is available over by the RGB-THRU connector, otherwise it's already provided on the DIN-13 interface, only requiring the RGB and optionally the RGB CTRL to be connected to the RGB-THRU.

 

EDIT: It's important to also connect at least one of the VGND pins on the RGB-THRU to an actual GND, preferable directly from the VBXE.

 

The VBXE has been around long enough to get support of it's enhanced features, but even without, it will still give you an excellent picture to either RGB or VGA (with the right core). If all you need is good quality RGB without the bells and whistles, then I would suggest instead the Sophia RevB which will set you back considerably less money and really is a no fuss plug'n'play installation.

[Mr Robot]

Am I right in thinking that Bryans UAV is the only option that will give me proper GTIA artifacting in games that use it? Being a Brit I am used to the black and white stripes but the first time I saw PCS on an NTSC machine blew my mind!

[flashjazzcat]

Note: the VGA core for VBXE is deprecated, so you'll need a scan doubler to get 31KHz RGB.

[+Stephen]

Am I right in thinking that Bryans UAV is the only option that will give me proper GTIA artifacting in games that use it? Being a Brit I am used to the black and white stripes but the first time I saw PCS on an NTSC machine blew my mind!

The only way you will get artifacting (even with the UAV) is via composite output, Even then, only NTSC machines will properly do it, since the pixel clock is exactly half the colour clock. If using the UAV (as in a 1088XEL, or otherwise), you will not get artifacting with the Y/C (s-video) output regardless of NTSC/PAL.

 

I believe you are correct in that VBXE does not support artifacting. I am not sure about Sophia.