+sixersfan105 Posted December 4, 2017 Share Posted December 4, 2017 "Steal"? More like "adverse possession". 7 years of improvements made without objections, input, or financing from the actual owner and the real property is yours in CA. Emphasis on the *real* part. That's all well and good, but obviously doesn't apply when copyright is at play and such. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrSidneyZweibel Posted December 4, 2017 Share Posted December 4, 2017 It's true that copyrights can expire, but the vast majority (again, I'll say close to 99%) are games that have valid copyrights but the corporate entity that owns the games chooses not to raise a stink and enforce the copyright by people distributing the game, etc. That doesn't mean it's legal, b/c it's not. In many things media, specifically music and movies/TV shows, you're absolutely correct. The original copyright holder, or their heirs still claim and enforce those rights. Video games and computer software get a lot more difficult to nail down, when corporations and entities that once held the copyrights for those IPs disband, and no longer exist. Unless the original copyrights were registered by an actual person and that person still maintains the copyright - lots of them that were registered to a company or publisher end up expiring when those companies disappear. Especially now that we're getting to 30-40 year old IPs where not only are the companies long gone bankrupt, but the principals of those companies are also deceased. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+sixersfan105 Posted December 4, 2017 Share Posted December 4, 2017 In many things media, specifically music and movies/TV shows, you're absolutely correct. The original copyright holder, or their heirs still claim and enforce those rights. Video games and computer software get a lot more difficult to nail down, when corporations and entities that once held the copyrights for those IPs disband, and no longer exist. Unless the original copyrights were registered by an actual person and that person still maintains the copyright - lots of them that were registered to a company or publisher end up expiring when those companies disappear. Especially now that we're getting to 30-40 year old IPs where not only are the companies long gone bankrupt, but the principals of those companies are also deceased. I hear you, but my point is that most of these defunct companies have been gobbled up over the years by another entity that still maintains the copyright. There's a LOT less actual "abandonware" out there than people think. I'm not saying there's never a case of actual software/video games that wind up in the public domain due to copyright lapses, but it's just much rarer than most believe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CPUWIZ Posted December 4, 2017 Share Posted December 4, 2017 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrSidneyZweibel Posted December 4, 2017 Share Posted December 4, 2017 I hear you, but my point is that most of these defunct companies have been gobbled up over the years by another entity that still maintains the copyright. There's a LOT less actual "abandonware" out there than people think. I'm not saying there's never a case of actual software/video games that wind up in the public domain due to copyright lapses, but it's just much rarer than most believe. and youre basing this on what? Personal speculation? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+sixersfan105 Posted December 4, 2017 Share Posted December 4, 2017 and youre basing this on what? Personal speculation?Jesus, you really will not let this stop, will you? What are you basing your opinions on? I am basing mine on facts, copyright law, and the general knowledge that I thought most people had about abandonware basically being piracy that isnt policed. I would prefer to end this debate, as arguing about the law with non-lawyers can get irritating, unless you happen to be an ill-informed one 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrSidneyZweibel Posted December 5, 2017 Share Posted December 5, 2017 Jesus, you really will not let this stop, will you? What are you basing your opinions on? I am basing mine on facts, copyright law, and the general knowledge that I thought most people had about abandonware basically being piracy that isnt policed. I would prefer to end this debate, as arguing about the law with non-lawyers can get irritating, unless you happen to be an ill-informed one i didnt realize we were really arguing. This was just a fairly polite conversation about the underlying subject involved in this threads central question. I didnt sense any hostility. If you detected any on my part, I apologize. Have a nice night. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sn8k Posted December 5, 2017 Author Share Posted December 5, 2017 For me, these are games that 90% of people we actually know and then some don't care about. I'm under 30, was the cool kid in both highschool and college. I didn't meet a single person who played Atari or knew what a colecovision was. I was the only one I knew and still am. Most older people Ive encountered usually only know about the actual wood grain 2600 and the arcade games and thats it for them. You guys are the only thing that proves to me Atari is still a thing. I know these games that release on 2600, 5200, 7800...... still, Don't go on to sell millions of copies like they did back in the day. Its more like anywhere from 20-100 usually or less from what Ive heard from people on here. I bet sometimes it's a bit more and some of these games here have sold a thousand or more over the years that they have been available right here at AA. With that said, here's where alot of you are going to be pissed with me and that's just fine. I'm a realist. We love Atari. The vast majority of gamers do not. If they did, Atgames wouldn't be allowed by the masses to get away with selling barely passable Atari products year in year out. In fact I'm going to take it a step further and say Atari would still be around in full force and Atgames wouldn't exist. This is not the case. For the most part,people have moved on and don't give a shit. Were the only ones that do. This worries me with AtariBox. The majority ofpeople who will buy it are all here. Discussing stuff like this. We will spend 300 on this no problem. But what about some kid whos 12-16? Is the name and a shiny new package enough to propel Atari to the heights it once had? I highly doubt it. But I'm truly and honestly hoping Atari geta back on top. Even if its only for a little while and the inevitable next powerhouse makes everything else before it become a little less relevant like it usually happens over and over. If I had Toki in my hands. It would be in all of your hands. Why? Because im talking to 30 people right now about an unreleased game no one gives a shit about except me and a few people on Atari Age. This is where I get pissed off. Because when it comes to a console thats dead. And being played by a cult following, everything should be fair game. The only thing that shouldnt be happening in my oppinion is the sale of games or things blatantly inspired by other things currently still relevant. Zippy? Princss rescue? Those shouldnt be put on carts and sold here. I can see how that would piss off a copyright holder. Noone should profit from things like that. Original IP? Sure. Go ahead. Rip off or remakes. No way. In the case of Toki. Normally, It shoudnt be on cart. Someone owns that shit. But the Atari 7800 version doesn't exist. It was never mass produced and sold. Therefore that damn rom should be released. No one makes money off it. Holding on to it for no reason is selfish and trying to find a way to profit off someone elses work and telling yourself you are ethical in your approach is BS because you respected one mans selfish need to keep it out of reach. Thats true passion. Not seeing the money in it but presrvation of it. Because lets face it. The only reason this is taking so long is because its some how coming down to money. And im the bad guy for saying shit People dont want to hear sometimes but its true. Noone should be making money off toki. That shit should be free to all. Especially considering were talking about a 7800 game that tops no more than 500 people and thats being generous , csre about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inky Posted December 5, 2017 Share Posted December 5, 2017 Here's my take.I'd love to have the prototype, as it's a great bit of Atari history.That having been said, I'm finding myself content with what we do have available as far as found prototypes, but even more so in the awesome homebrews we have coming out.I'll line up for Toki, but in the meantime, I'll just have fun with what's available. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jinks Posted December 6, 2017 Share Posted December 6, 2017 Cpu has the carts and wants to respect the deal he made. If he didnt the next time something came up they would not trust him. So he honours his deal. I think it is simple as that. Arguing rights etc is pointless. I have no idea why I made the comments I made previously if it offended anyone I apologize for that. We have not put any money down here so no one owes us. I am happy to see the playthru video and if that is as close as I ever get than that is fine as well. 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+save2600 Posted December 6, 2017 Share Posted December 6, 2017 Yeah, screw Toki at this point. If it's finished and the powers that be don't want to release it, it won't be released. It's as simple as that. We're getting too old to care about stuff like this anyway. Let's just enjoy what we have, while we have it and while we are able. Everyone should get on board with this. Maybe if enough people show their newfound disinterest, it'll finally come about! Because that's exactly how the world works. Need or want something? Forget about it, it's out of reach. Don't care, gave up or lost interest? Suddenly it's available. Works with all sorts of relationships too. ...or not! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andromeda Stardust Posted December 6, 2017 Share Posted December 6, 2017 Less bickering about copyright and moral/legal limbo, more Toki! It's football season dammit, so get your ape face on! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+frankodragon Posted December 6, 2017 Share Posted December 6, 2017 I'm pretty sure CPUWIZ doesn't want a man in a three piece suit carrying a briefcase appearing at his doorstep. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jinks Posted December 6, 2017 Share Posted December 6, 2017 I'm pretty sure CPUWIZ doesn't want a man in a three piece suit carrying a briefcase appearing at his doorstep.Yeah he is straight. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tempest Posted December 6, 2017 Share Posted December 6, 2017 Another copy could turn up eventually, you never know. Maybe it will be NTSC this time? 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jinks Posted December 7, 2017 Share Posted December 7, 2017 Another copy could turn up eventually, you never know. Maybe it will be NTSC this time? Am waiting for that and electrocop 1 and 2. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DracIsBack Posted December 14, 2017 Share Posted December 14, 2017 Am waiting for that and electrocop 1 and 2. Electrocop 2? Come to think of it, aren't Road Riot 4WD and Steel Talons on the watch for list? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Dragon Posted December 14, 2017 Share Posted December 14, 2017 Where the hell is 7800 Paperboy? Still up in the programmer's attic? I've had no contact with him personally, since i interviewed him, but a friend of mine recently tried to contact him and said he had basically gone into hiding. It really doesn't pay for people to keep hounding any coder or artist etc to see if they are willing to search high and low for code which may or may not still exist. I had trusted buyers for the items HMS Jim Gregory was considering selling from his garage, but Jim never got back to any of them.. My contacts at Unseen64 and GTW have reported people are less willing to talk about Atari these days due to certain individuals out there who have passed speculation off as fact.. Thus giving people false hope code will be found and found soon..and are bombarding them with messages to search high and low until they can either find it or confirm it's now lost forever. I'd go with others advice personally..if your looking to play Toki or Paperboy on an Atari console.. Just play them on Lynx. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Dragon Posted December 14, 2017 Share Posted December 14, 2017 Am waiting for that and electrocop 1 and 2. Some months ago..GTW made an active effort to see if anything new could be found regarding 7800 Electrcop, sadly not 1 person whom they approached ever replied. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Dragon Posted December 14, 2017 Share Posted December 14, 2017 The rights to Toki do not belong to "Atari". Neither does Paperboy [WB Games]. I'm still very confused about where Imagitec Design fit into the whole 7800 Toki saga... I put up all the documentation Scott Stilphen kindly passed onto me regarding that..HERE: https://assemblergames.com/threads/atari-7800-toki-imagitec-design-atari-corp-files.66320/ 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jinks Posted December 15, 2017 Share Posted December 15, 2017 I made up electrocop 2. With all the wierd finds who knows. Was going to say Electroluxcop. The cop that sucks bad guys up. Or modernized it could be the cop who sucks bad guys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CPUWIZ Posted December 15, 2017 Share Posted December 15, 2017 Or modernized it could be the cop who sucks bad guys. Could be an interesting punishment for homophobic crimes. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andromeda Stardust Posted December 15, 2017 Share Posted December 15, 2017 I'm still very confused about where Imagitec Design fit into the whole 7800 Toki saga... I put up all the documentation Scott Stilphen kindly passed onto me regarding that..HERE: https://assemblergames.com/threads/atari-7800-toki-imagitec-design-atari-corp-files.66320/ Very cool internal documents. It seems the current state of Toki is nealy unplayable at the ime the letter was composed. I assume the found beta is of a later release date? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Dragon Posted December 15, 2017 Share Posted December 15, 2017 I'm very grateful to Scott for sharing those documents. It was the 1st time i had ever heard Imagitec Design mentioned alongside 7800 Toki.. The likes of Martin Hooley have previously only ever talked about 7800 Rampart and Pitfighter being in development, though judging by what was said in these, Imagitec probably just wanted to forget about it completely. The other internal documents raise concerns from Atari UK that imagitec are over stretched taking on too many projects at once..so i make the assumption Atari simply pulled the plug on Toki with them, early on and found another developer to either carry on or start from scratch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tempest Posted December 15, 2017 Share Posted December 15, 2017 My contacts at Unseen64 and GTW have reported people are less willing to talk about Atari these days due to certain individuals out there who have passed speculation off as fact.. Can you elaborate on this at all? I know some programmers have stopped responding on message boards because they get bombarded with "GIMME YOUR PROTOS!" type posts, but you're saying that people are keeping tight lipped because people are posting false information? That's a different (and weird) charge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts