mechanerd Posted December 12, 2017 Share Posted December 12, 2017 I used to sell electronic parts and tools to OEMs and MROs with a retail front end. I had all the Weller and Hakko stuff in stock. All the tips. It's a matter of skill, you can use a cheap iron after lots of practice and you know how your brand of solder and irons work. Once you get the tricks down, it's like riding a bicycle. Most artisans and musicians are already in the mechanical finger dexterity class of doctors and watchmakers.With that said, for general through hole stuff the WES series from Weller or Hakko works great. Get a dial on that iron and practice on some cheap kits to solder together to learn. If you frazzle a Velleman kit for $15 it's no big deal versus a collectible board like an Atari etc. It doesn't do you any good to have an iron unless you know how to take stuff apart with it for repair. This is the majority of the time I spent is being careful to remove the dead components. So, focus also on de-soldering push button pumps and braid. Soldapullit clones with a teflon tip work great for <$20 for most sockets and stubborn pools of solder. Get a few stainless drill bits and used stainless dental picks. Solder won't stick and you can light push the solder out before the pad lifts off the board. Solder wick will usually get most of it out. A sewing needle with pliers will work in a pinch. Also, the older 1970 and 80s solder was harder with more Antimony in it, and gets hard as it ages. You can always add a touch of fresh 60/40 to mix in with it to lower the overall metling point. The flux from the new solder added makes it viscous enough to suck off the board or use the braid. I never did get around to using hot air, but if you are doing this all the time, go for kits from China. They do work. That's my 0.02 from fixing thousands of joints from motherboards, TV, stereos, guitars, appliances, and making stuff "Tandy Tough' on the bench. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan Posted December 12, 2017 Share Posted December 12, 2017 And remember, the biggest difference between a station: and a standard iron: is that the iron has a heating element which is designed to reach operating temperature when powered all the time. This means it eventually reaches an equilibrium with the air around it and its temperature will vary depending on the temperature of the room and how recently it's been used to heat up a solder joint. It may not have enough stored heat for larger joints. A typical soldering station uses a different kind of element (usually ceramic) that produces more heat than needed, so power to it is cycled to maintain the desired tip temperature in any environment. It gets to operating temperature faster and the duty cycle is automatically increased as heat is drained during soldering. There are different wattages and technologies out there but any temperature controlled station will outperform a standard iron for most tasks. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Osgeld Posted December 12, 2017 Share Posted December 12, 2017 (edited) also be aware of the crap stations, like the weller WLC100, which is just a plug in model wired to a lamp dimmer for 30 bucks which is why I dont like weller, they will happily sell you a 8.99 chunk of crap for 30 bucks, 2 years ago it was 50, few years ago it was 60, that's scam artist bullshit cause they have a name garbage Edited December 12, 2017 by Osgeld Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AtariLeaf Posted December 14, 2017 Share Posted December 14, 2017 also be aware of the crap stations, like the weller WLC100, which is just a plug in model wired to a lamp dimmer for 30 bucks which is why I dont like weller, they will happily sell you a 8.99 chunk of crap for 30 bucks, 2 years ago it was 50, few years ago it was 60, that's scam artist bullshit cause they have a name garbage I had one I bought on amazon and it died after a few uses. Wouldn't even burn through a piece of paper. I returned it and am much happier with the Hakko. Thanks for help on that whole thing btw Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Level42 Posted December 15, 2017 Share Posted December 15, 2017 also be aware of the crap stations, like the weller WLC100, which is just a plug in model wired to a lamp dimmer for 30 bucks which is why I dont like weller, they will happily sell you a 8.99 chunk of crap for 30 bucks, 2 years ago it was 50, few years ago it was 60, that's scam artist bullshit cause they have a name garbage Very good point, I always wonder why well known high quality brands risk of loosing their good reputation just to sell some low margin stuff. Many audio equipment brands did the same and most of them suffered greatly from it. (Let's just mention one name, Harman Kardon) I bet the reason is that in those companies the marketing-dudes take over after a while and they start blabbing about how their company should serve all sectors of the market bla bla bla.... Weller produced and produces fine equipment and their primary target is the professional market but they seem to make that same mistake. Luckily they do seem to indicate which stuff from them you should avoid by giving it a red color..... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toddtmw Posted February 3, 2018 Author Share Posted February 3, 2018 Okay. I ordered the Haiko FX888D. Is there a recommended temperature for removing and replacing chips on Atari boards? Thank you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+DrVenkman Posted February 3, 2018 Share Posted February 3, 2018 I do almost all work on vintage stuff at 750F (a fraction of a degree under 400C) using 60/40 leaded solder, but I've never used my iron alone to remove old chips. I've cut out dead IC's and broken sockets, leaving the legs to remove before numerous times, just never an intact chip I intended to save. Might be worth starting an "intact chip removal technique" thread to see what others have done if you want to try to learn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toddtmw Posted February 3, 2018 Author Share Posted February 3, 2018 I'm doing repair work of a suspected bad chip. So for that you use diagonal pliers to cut the legs and then just pull the pins out with a soldering iron and solder sucker or braid? Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+DrVenkman Posted February 3, 2018 Share Posted February 3, 2018 I'm doing repair work of a suspected bad chip. So for that you use diagonal pliers to cut the legs and then just pull the pins out with a soldering iron and solder sucker or braid? Thanks! Okay, what I do in that case is cut the chip casing off at the very top of the shoulder, leaving as much pin as possible. When you're done, you'll have a row of relative large pins sticking up out of each via. I apply liquid flux to the vias and then heat up each one, with the iron tip touching both the solder pad and the leg sticking out. With my other hand, I have a pair of precision tweezers or needlenose pliers grasping the leg. When the solder liquefies, give it another second and then pull the leg right out. When all the legs are removed, I apply more flux to both sides, heat the top of the via by resting my iron on the pad with the solder sucker flush against the bottom of the via. Once the remaining solder liquefies, trigger the solder sucker and voila. I've replaced chips and sockets this way on both 2600's and my troublesome 1200XL. 160 vias cleaned out among those two machines, no damaged or destroyed vias or traces. Applying liquid flux (I use a cheap plastic syringe bottles to apply just where and how much needed, $8 on Amazon for two. I use the other bottle for iso alcohol): Heat up each pin or leg and grasp with tweezers or pliers with the other hand: Once the solder turns shiny, remove the leg: Once the pins are out, clean out the vias as described above: 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidMil Posted February 3, 2018 Share Posted February 3, 2018 Whatever you do, DO NOT just buy a free-standing iron. Soldering stations cost more, but you need the temperature control... Iron too hot = rosin burns away and your solder no longer flows (it starts to rapidly oxidize) (which is why in the days before soldering stations, we would keep a damp sponge nearby, but that's not exact, at all.) -Thom I still use my damp sponge. Especially when using flux to desolder. It's a fast way to remove gunk from the tip and does no damage. I also have a small tin of rosin and solder mixed together ( you can buy this at any online electronics store) to 'wet' or 'tin' the tip when it starts to get a coating that prevents solder from quickly melting and sticking to the tip. I also use this to coat the tip when I am done and have turned off the station (before it gets too cool). I NEVER use anything like a steel wool to clean the tip! I've had the same tip in my iron now for 15 years and it still looks good with no pits or shrinkage. DavidMil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toddtmw Posted February 3, 2018 Author Share Posted February 3, 2018 Okay, what I do in that case is cut the chip casing off at the very top of the shoulder, leaving as much pin as possible. When you're done, you'll have a row of relative large pins sticking up out of each via. I apply liquid flux to the vias and then heat up each one, with the iron tip touching both the solder pad and the leg sticking out. With my other hand, I have a pair of precision tweezers or needlenose pliers grasping the leg. When the solder liquefies, give it another second and then pull the leg right out. When all the legs are removed, I apply more flux to both sides, heat the top of the via by resting my iron on the pad with the solder sucker flush against the bottom of the via. Once the remaining solder liquefies, trigger the solder sucker and voila. I've replaced chips and sockets this way on both 2600's and my troublesome 1200XL. 160 vias cleaned out among those two machines, no damaged or destroyed vias or traces. Applying liquid flux (I use a cheap plastic syringe bottles to apply just where and how much needed, $8 on Amazon for two. I use the other bottle for iso alcohol): IMG_8453.JPG Heat up each pin or leg and grasp with tweezers or pliers with the other hand: IMG_8455.JPG Once the solder turns shiny, remove the leg: IMG_8456.JPG Once the pins are out, clean out the vias as described above: IMG_8457.JPG would you be willing to link to the bottles and the flux you use? Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+DrVenkman Posted February 3, 2018 Share Posted February 3, 2018 would you be willing to link to the bottles and the flux you use? Thanks! Sure. Here you go: Here are the syringe bottles: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00UG08QDC/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o04_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1 And here is the flux. I bought this brand at the recommendation of a friend who rebuilds arcade cabinets and is a EE by education; he integrates very high-end home entertainment and automation systems for a living for the past 20+ years. Their techs use this brand for hardware repairs and swear by it. I can attest it works a treat on old, cruddy solder and new stuff alike. And with the syringe bottle, a very little goes a very long way. I filled up one of these syringe bottles when I was starting work on my 1200XL last June and even including building a 1088XEL, I've used less than a quarter of what I put in there. When this syringe bottle runs out and I empty the last of the bottle I bought from Amazon, I'm buying a full quart and that will probably last my remaining lifetime. https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B005DNR01Q/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o03_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toddtmw Posted February 3, 2018 Author Share Posted February 3, 2018 Awesome. Order placed. Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+kheller2 Posted February 3, 2018 Share Posted February 3, 2018 Yes, thank you for the recomendation. Now, does anyone have tips on working on boards that don't have a solder mask? Besides the "don't screw it up" comment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_The Doctor__ Posted February 4, 2018 Share Posted February 4, 2018 what do you mean? kaptive tape? paint your own mask? it's still just traces pads and solder.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toddtmw Posted February 4, 2018 Author Share Posted February 4, 2018 What is Kaptive Tape? Google wont let me search for it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_The Doctor__ Posted February 4, 2018 Share Posted February 4, 2018 (edited) oh whatever, it's a typo or spell correct, look at one of my zillions of other posts where it's correct.. Kapton good to 450 or so degrees. should I post a full page Captain Obvious or Captain Oblivious here? pfffft Edited February 4, 2018 by _The Doctor__ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AtariLeaf Posted February 4, 2018 Share Posted February 4, 2018 Sure. Here you go: Here are the syringe bottles: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00UG08QDC/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o04_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1 And here is the flux. I bought this brand at the recommendation of a friend who rebuilds arcade cabinets and is a EE by education; he integrates very high-end home entertainment and automation systems for a living for the past 20+ years. Their techs use this brand for hardware repairs and swear by it. I can attest it works a treat on old, cruddy solder and new stuff alike. And with the syringe bottle, a very little goes a very long way. I filled up one of these syringe bottles when I was starting work on my 1200XL last June and even including building a 1088XEL, I've used less than a quarter of what I put in there. When this syringe bottle runs out and I empty the last of the bottle I bought from Amazon, I'm buying a full quart and that will probably last my remaining lifetime. https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B005DNR01Q/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o03_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1 Thanks for the recommendation. I was actually going to ask about which brand of flux to buy so this is great. I've been struggling with old solder removal and this should help quite a bit. Is there a recommended time to allow it to sit before desoldering? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+DrVenkman Posted February 4, 2018 Share Posted February 4, 2018 Thanks for the recommendation. I was actually going to ask about which brand of flux to buy so this is great. I've been struggling with old solder removal and this should help quite a bit. Is there a recommended time to allow it to sit before desoldering? Not really, I don't think. It's really sort of "heat-activated." Sitting there it won't do much at all; might soften the outer layer where the old stuff has become oxidized but over the span of a couple/few minutes you won't notice much of anything. Apply heat with the iron though and it makes the solder flow like butter. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toddtmw Posted February 4, 2018 Author Share Posted February 4, 2018 oh whatever, it's a typo or spell correct, look at one of my zillions of other posts where it's correct.. Kapton good to 450 or so degrees. should I post a full page Captain Obvious or Captain Oblivious here? pfffft Didn't mean to upset you. I honestly didn't know it was a typo. I was actually criticizng Google for not allowing me to search for the term that I actually typed. I'm sorry and will try to do better in the future. Thank you for the advice. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Nezgar Posted February 5, 2018 Share Posted February 5, 2018 (edited) I like Dr. V's analogy... "makes the solder flow like butter" Here's my flux. I like the wide flat container. Wide open surface to tap the iron tip in, wire ends, or scrape a bit with a mini flat-head screwrdiver to apply to surfaces... Edited February 5, 2018 by Nezgar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_The Doctor__ Posted February 5, 2018 Share Posted February 5, 2018 a few clicks would have revealed it all, but I'm not as clear as I should be. Also very terse in my response, still. Though looking at both google responses it would have been resolved quickly by a click or two looking at one and then the other. A quick look and then maybe a little hey Doc I think you made a typo or spell correct error, I found the kapton tape. cool. I didn't get that feeling from the post I read and saw. It did take up over half my screen, and had the tone of that comedy act where the guy goes... what is stupid, and as I read this article it says ___... what does ____ mean. Just saying we can both come off looking badly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_The Doctor__ Posted February 5, 2018 Share Posted February 5, 2018 lol Nezgar looks like dipper not a brusher, squirt-er, or dripper...... and oh my lord that's acid flux... I only use that in terrible conditions and clean up meticulously after. That stuff eats very slowly, consistently and persistently over the years. ACID core and ACID paste... not on the approved list. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Nezgar Posted February 5, 2018 Share Posted February 5, 2018 (edited) Pardon my ignorance, interesting - now I know! edit: Just in case anyone reading this is as dumb as me and is afraid to ask why. Wow. 5 seconds of googling, and I see this from the mfr: "Like other inorganic acid fluxes, Kester SP-30 is too corrosive for electrical or electronics soldering applications. In all cases, the flux residue should be removed after soldering to avoid any corrosion problem." I think this came from a hardware store, probably intended for plumbing. I'll be replacing this stuff in short order. Edited February 5, 2018 by Nezgar 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_The Doctor__ Posted February 5, 2018 Share Posted February 5, 2018 Cool, I'd go back and make sure whatever I did with it is clean as whistle.. I've seen it eat the plating off of things... I hope to be helpful and my tone not hurtful. Now get off my lawn! Just kidding.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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