ebay returns

[+KylJoy]

FYI, here is a set of Vectrex manuals and they are showing that there is writing in them. I do not believe that writing is "normal wear". But this is arguable. I wouldn't buy "used" writing paper since it would likely be written on. And, this part of the manual is for writing scores in.

 

Yeah, I know. I'm arguing with myself. But I think people generally think of writing as "defacing" and not "normal wear" related to manuals and such.

[+cvga]

Heh, it is really hard for me to resist participating in the debate. But I can't do it without revealing which party I am. So far it seems like folks are split in their assumptions of which one I am, so I guess it isn't obvious.

 

You're the seller so I'm assuming the buyer must have complained.

 

Your listing isn't dishonest and your price seemed more than fair so I don't believe you owe a refund for high scores that are written in the manual. It would have been a good idea to mention it though.

[+KylJoy]

 

Return is the ONLY solution for instances such as this. Do not give in to the losers who nitpick just so they can get a partial refund or something for free. I will pay more and take bigger losses in shipping before I allow someone to extort the system and get something they are not entitled to.

 

LOL... Yeah, I've done that at times - taken a larger loss if I think I'm being scammed. I get it. But not every time. Sometimes there are just accidents, miscommunication, oversights, etc.

 

I think that some of the folks here (maybe you, Iceman) sell more than me and have had to make rules for yourselves as to how to do business as to avoid spending all of your time on this stuff. I get it. I do not sell that much. Maybe that's a difference.

[kennybrooks]

Should have been mentioned, but the 4 games you purchased are well worth $36 without the manuals. In this case, I think you let it go, you got a bargain. If you feel you have been cheated, contact the seller directly and do not complain through ebay, it only hurts the seller who provided you with a steal.

[AtariLeaf]

As a seller I mention everything condition-wise BECAUSE I don't want these kinds of issues afterwards with the buyer.

 

As for writing in manuals, I'm ok with it if it's an old high score written inside the back page of a manual but if it has writing on the outside front or back I'm a little more picky about that so as a buyer I'd want to know. As for the worth of the lot with or without manuals I don't think that enters into it. Just because something is a great deal doesn't mean that a hidden defect should be hidden (purposely or not) from the buyer. I've bought items before that had clear damage on the back or a side of a boxed game that wasn't shown in the picture and when I questioned the seller their excuse was that it didn't matter because of how cheap I got the game. My response was that no, it was a good deal if the box was in good shape but an obvious defect makes it not a good deal and the seller obviously knew that which was why one particular angle wasn't shown. I did get a partial refund in that case.

 

My responsibility as a buyer should have been to ask if there were any defects but I didn't and I don't make that mistake anymore and ask questions now if every angle or side isn't shown in a boxed game.

 

In the end it's up to the seller to make sure condition is clear and unambiguous or they're just causing themselves potential headaches. It's also up to the buyer to ask questions especially if condition is important. Collectibles like video games fall into a category where condition is a big deal to a buyer.

[gliptitude]

I added photos of the writing to the original post.

 

The reason I conceal my identity is because I am considering directing the other party to this discussion page and I'd like to be able to claim that this is a discussion that is not biased or influenced by my position.

 

Honestly I am completely outraged by the dispute and it is hard for me not to lose my temper. And even after saying that I anticipate some commentators here will still be confused as to which party I am. It blows my mind.

Edited January 5, 2018 by gliptitude

[AtariLeaf]

Now that I see those pics of the manuals I can say for me personally that wouldn't bother me at all and adds some charm. Shocking that people back in the day wrote their high scores on the high score page of the manual. I like stuff like this the way I like original store price stickers on my atari boxes. It's a kind of charm that captures a moment in time.

[Guest]

I don't think I've indicated whether I am the buyer or seller and I had hoped to keep that unknown for the time being.

the last line of the advert states

"Ask any questions."

that should be enough for any buyer - at the very least the buyer should be asking for more detail/better pics

[sirlynxalot]

I've bought used games before that contained high scores and/or level passwords listed in the high score/notes pages, it never bothered me and actually I kinda enjoyed it as a time capsule and/or goal to beat the scores of the previous owner. Frankly, that's what the high score table / notes section is for, for the owner to write notes or high scores, and these games are being sold as used, as in, previously owned. However, if there was extensive writing on other pages of the manual, such as pages that do not invite the owner to write on them, or if the item was sold as used but "like new" or mint condition and contained the scores, I could see a bone to pick with that.

Edited January 5, 2018 by sirlynxalot

[+orpheuswaking]

It clearly states used, The manuals have a page for high scores that one owner USED. People that flip out at this stuff drive me crazy.

[krslam]

Reason number too-high-to-count why I no longer sell on ebay.

[icemanxp300]

The reason I conceal my identity is because I am considering directing the other party to this discussion page and I'd like to be able to claim that this is a discussion that is not biased or influenced by my position.

 

Please post the ebay ID. I don't feel like dealing w/them in the future. That is if they are not already part of my extremely long block list.

[icemanxp300]

OP sent me the ID, I will not share as it is not my place but all I have to say is this!

 

Ha! He is a reseller that is why he is so pissed over manuals having writing.

 

 

Yes I am assuming his intentions here but he has many video games for sale and many sold listings. He could be a collector as well.

[+KylJoy]

Reason number too-high-to-count why I no longer sell on ebay.

 

Folks, this is an excellent statement. Please try to sell to us here, first. It's cheaper, easier, friendlier for everyone. Ebay is expensive. Throw in PayPal fees and you've lost maybe 20% of the value of your items OR had to inflate your prices to cover that. It's the opposite problem for buyers. I know a lot of you do come here first.

 

Having said that, as a buyer, Ebay and PayPal offer very good protections. As discussed, those are actually some of the issues sellers have with Ebay.

[towmater]

Since those lines were an intended use form, a legal definition might be "reasonable wear and tear" and it is to be expected for it to take place.

[+KylJoy]

I keep meaning to say, the price for those items was very fair in my opinion.

[+save2600]

Glip has to be the buyer... he's got pics of the scores written on the back of the manuals that should have been included in the seller's listing!

 

Kidding, kidding. Anyway, seems the issue has already been resolved. Doesn't matter what we might think. What do you think or feel about the transaction? Or should we already know that by now?

[S.BAZ]

I prefer to take that kind of stuff into consideration before deciding to buy something.

If I bought it with that information being unclear it would be with the understanding that it may or may not have writing in the manuals. That's just being responsible in my opinion.

 

I would not ask for a refund or complain. When I buy used stuff with no claim of perfect condition I expect stuff like that, and basically count it as a surprise bonus if it shows up unscathed.

 

I would not feel entitled to a refund. If the manuals were missing, now that would make sense.

 

I guess there may be a way to use ebay rules to try to get a refund, but IMO that just wastes peoples' time and energy. Why make a mess of it?

[+slx]

It clearly states used, The manuals have a page for high scores that one owner USED. People that flip out at this stuff drive me crazy.

 

Couldn't sum it up better. To each his own and there may be reasons beyond my understanding for wanting stuff that looks like it was forgotten on a shelf for three decades but to me jottings like these add character. And yes, one should try to beat those highscores, if necessary using the cheats noted

[spacecadet]

the last line of the advert states

"Ask any questions."

that should be enough for any buyer

I didn't really think about it before but you're right. And I add the same thing to my listings - though I specifically say "Ask any questions BEFORE bidding or buying", because some people do hit that "buy it now" button and *then* think they can waste your time making sure it's really the item they want.

 

But a seller really has no way to know what kind of wear or "signs of use" are going to be important to a buyer. You can try to describe everything as a seller but by nature, you will only be describing things *you* think are important. Personally, I would not describe every single little scratch on an item listed as "used" (to me that's just what "used" means), but there could still be somebody out there who's going to write in afterwards whining about some hairline scratch on the bottom of something that you can't even see and claiming it was not specified in the listing.

 

I once sold an acoustic guitar on Ebay; it was a Gibson J-30, relatively rare and pretty expensive if they're in good condition. Mine really wasn't, and I said that in the auction. But I honestly didn't know *specifically* everything that was wrong with it, I just knew that the bridge pins kept popping out and it had some body cracks. So I wrote something like "Needs repair - has various issues including bridge pins that pop out and cracks in the body. Bid accordingly." I took pics of everything I knew about, and every major part of the guitar. The guy who won it never asked me anything about it beforehand, and he got it for an insanely low price for that guitar, which was fine with me because I knew it needed work.

 

A couple weeks later I get an email saying he wants to return it because it's not as described. He said he took it to a luthier and was told it had all sorts of other issues beyond what I said. The main thing he was complaining about were the cracks in the body *that I specifically mentioned*. He said they were worse than the pictures made it look, and to repair them was going to cost him hundreds of dollars. I got really mad. He had gotten the guitar for probably 20% of what it normally goes for and the damage he was worried about was specifically in the listing, both text and pics! I sent him a long response and nicely told him no. He replied back insisting, and my next reply was not so nice. I basically told him to take it up with Ebay or take me to court and see what happens. He replied saying something to the effect of "oh, so that's how it's going to be" and I didn't hear anything after that.

 

The moral of the story being that these are all questions of *degree*. And a seller can never know to what degree a buyer is going to tolerate wear and tear, so all a seller can do is describe what *he* feels is important. Beyond that, it's buyer beware. Ask questions if there's something you really care about that you want to know before buying. If the seller doesn't answer or you don't like his answer, you don't have to buy.

[+xucaen]

Just chiming in with my 2 cents, though it may not be worth that much.

 

I think there was a minor failure on both sides with regards to this auction - the seller should have disclosed, and the buyer should have asked. But where nothing was said in the auction except that they were in "used" condition, the buyer should expect possible marks and writing.

[gliptitude]

The archived item listing that I linked says the item sold for $36, which is not the case. It was a Buy it Now at $36 or best offer. The actual sale was $30, still free shipping, accepted best offer.

 

The detailed pictures of the high score tables were provided by the buyer. In addition to the buyer providing the seller with these photos, I have posted them here.

[HoshiChiri]

If it was me, I'd be annoyed- I don't consider writing to be 'normal wear and tear', that's something along the lines of dogeared/fuzzy corners, slight sunfade, minor creases and fingermarks, etc. Writing is a specific defect that was put there intentionally at some point.

 

If I was this buyer, however, I'd let it go- the description does not promise immaculate or writing-free manuals, and high scores/passwords on the memo pages are common in old titles... if you don't want them, either ask about it or find a seller specifying they are not present. If the deal is so good you're afraid you'll miss out, well- then I guess the risk is on you, eh?

 

As the seller, you've got a few ways to go about this:

 

-Offer $2-4 dollars partial refund for the writing. At the places I work, we call this a 'nuisance complaint' with a 'nuisance payout'. Basically, it means the complaint isn't about anything you think you did wrong, nothing is going to change, but if a couple of dollars will make them leave you alone & let you deal with more important issues it's worth it.

 

-Tell them to return the items for a refund, and you'll need to wait until they arrive & you verify it's the same items in the same condition before said refund is issued- and you won't cover return shipping. This is the spiteful option- it means a lot more work for you, but it also means more work for them.

 

-The 'tough shit' option. Probably the best one here, just send them a message stating you're sorry they're disappointed, but given the great deal they received & how common writing in old manuals is, you can't offer a discount. Copy and paste the same response until they give up or open a dispute... at which point, switch up to the spiteful return option.

 

Oh, and if the buyer does get sent here: Hey Mr. Buyer? Don't expect pristine perfection from good deals on 35 year old used games. Deal with it or sell them.

Edited January 6, 2018 by HoshiChiri

[RamrodHare]

Being a seller and a buyer on eBay, I've had to deal with some annoying things. If you are a buyer, you usually have everything in your favor when it comes to a dispute. It may be very frustrating and take some time, but the buyer will usually win the dispute. For that reason, eBay can be a good place to buy things. That's also what makes it suck to be a seller. I've learned over the years to be very careful listing items, because people have become very picky. The sellers have started getting sneaky too. Some sellers play dumb, as if they don't even know what they are selling and some buyers won't ask any questions until after they win the auction. Of course the fees to sell on eBay are ridiculous.

 

Back on the topic of those manuals.. Would I want a refund because they had high scores in them? No. It really doesn't seem like a big deal to me.

Should it have been stated in the auction? Yes, knowing now that it was apparently an issue.

Now here's where it gets interesting.

If I had been the seller, would I have thought to mention the high scores written in them? No. It wouldn't have ever crossed my mind that this would be a big deal. My vehicle owners manual has the oil changes listed in the back of it, does that annoy me, no. This goes back to buyers being too picky, especially with older items.

 

If you're selling, take plenty of photos, give as detailed of description as possible and in bold print, make it clear that any questions are to be asked before buying or placing a bid. When it comes to something like instruction manuals, I'd make it clear that they are being included "for free" with the purchase of the games. That way if the buyer complains, they have no leg to stand on, since they cant get a refund on something they didn't pay for.

[icemanxp300]

Should it have been stated in the auction? Yes, knowing now that it was apparently an issue.

 

This right here is the reason why I have hundreds of extra manuals/controllers/accessories sitting in boxes and bins and more bins. Fact is some items do NOT add value to a listing. For this reason I do not "give" people anything extra to complain about.

 

If I sell a Nintendo 64 it will NOT come with a rumble pak. Nope I have tons of them sitting in a bin. I am NOT testing something worthless. I as well am not sending it (untested) to someone just so they can say it doesn't work and open a claim against me for tossing something in for free. Adding it in the listing will not get me any more money.

 

This attitude just makes people like me rather toss shit in the garbage can than send it out to someone. I think more people should adopt my selling practices. People are selfish ungrateful idiots.

 

I suggest the OP toss all manuals of minute value in a bin and sell the carts alone as he will get paid the same. Then after he has a shitload of manuals toss them on ebay as a lot and put a disclaimer that rips, tears, marker, stickers, writing, and so on may be on any manual and the lot is sold as is. That's how I do it. You profit more and don't deal with crap like this.

 

Ebay is a game that is loaded to favor the buyer. As a seller you best learn how to roll the dice!

 

I have all 3 star wars for the n64 w/manuals. When I get around to selling them the manuals will get tossed in a box because I'm not looking at them to go over condition as they are worthless. This thread is exactly why the person who buys my lot will not get bonus manuals.