Sophia rev.C - DVI board

[tane]

The only posts I've seen about it are towmater 's at 1536x960 (that worked) and mine at 1600x900 (that didn't).

 

 

Ok. I ordered a 1600×900, I'm exited with this project, it has been long time since I had fun many years with this system when I was child, it'll be great to have an upgraded one, and I'm asking Simius the way to update the core (eventually to 1536×960). It will be required an USB Blaster, and an adapter for the pins. Have you found an adapter?

[Simius]

Or another:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/DVI-to-HDMI-audio-converter-DVI-L-R-audio-in-to-HDMI-out-with-power-adapter/282218473361?hash=item41b5882791:g:Dz8AAOSwn3Vaqh7w

Edited April 29, 2018 by Simius

[TheMontezuma]

I would like to share with you my experience with connecting SOPHIA DVI (1600x900) to the 4K TV: LG 55UH8509

 

The TV shows the (scaled up) picture, however the picture is not what I expected

You can see strange artifacts, like dynamically lit pixels. The TV shows 1600x900 as a video resolution in the status line.

Configuration settings can't fix the problem, which I guess is caused by the 4K upscaling algorithms

I wish a user could disable such "intelligent" upscaling, which may be very nice for movies, but not for the computers...

 

 

When I connect my laptop to the TV, it displays perfectly sharp picture.

Regardless of the resolution selected in the laptop settings, the TV always shows 2160p, which means the upscaling is done in the laptop.

 

Does anybody have different experience with 4K TVs?

Edited April 29, 2018 by TheMontezuma

[tane]

Have you found an adapter?

 

Auto-answering: http://atariage.com/forums/topic/258702-new-development-gtia-in-cpld/page-18?do=findComment&comment=3728309

[tane]

The TV shows the (scaled up) picture, however the picture is not what I expected

You can see strange artifacts, like dynamically lit pixels.

 

 

A zoom:

 

Let me guess, the skull is going to the right...

 

It seems that the frequency is not enough and the TV is adding a new interpolated frame between 2 original ones. This should be fixed by adding (at least) a new frame (copying the previous one). A fixed Sophia core should fix this bad effect. This is not a resolution problem, is about frequency, and maybe that's why some devices like the Monoprice doesn't recognize the Sophia raw signal as a good one. The same is going to happen with many monitors and TVs.

 

 

Here is a video showing the same problem with the VBXE board. Look at the nose of the plane. The frequency is also not enough.

 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ziONYRljaI0

 

 

 

Also, the Montezuma image is only horizontally centered but not vertically, it is near the bottom of the screen. That tells you that there is still space for up-scaling the image until the top black border is reduced (and reducing also the bottom small black border). It seems that Sophia adds a big black border at the top, but it should be best instead to up-scale the image until the top and bottom edges, in order to use more TV screen.

 

 

.

Edited April 30, 2018 by tane

[TheMontezuma]

 

 

A zoom:

 

Let me guess, the skull is going to the right...

 

It seems that the frequency is not enough and the TV is adding a new interpolated frame between 2 original ones. This should be fixed by adding (at least) a new frame (copying the previous one). A fixed Sophia core should fix this bad effect. This is not a resolution problem, is about frequency, and maybe that's why some devices like the Monoprice doesn't recognize the Sophia raw signal as a good one. The same is going to happen with many monitors and TVs.

 

 

Here is a video showing the same problem with the VBXE board. Look at the nose of the plane. The frequency is also not enough.

 

Also, the Montezuma image is only horizontally centered but not vertically, it is near the bottom of the screen. That tells you that there is still space for up-scaling the image until the top black border is reduced (and reducing also the bottom small black border). It seems that Sophia adds a big black border at the top, but it should be best instead to up-scale the image until the top and bottom edges, in order to use more TV screen.

.

 

Thank you for your comments.

Perhaps you are right with your findings, but the actual issue is the bright pixels, which "randomly" appear and disappear:

 

Here a short video:

VID_20180430_165901.mp4

 

The shadow next to the skull in the previous posting might have been caused by my smartphone's camera.

As far as I understand SOPHIA does not influence the refresh frequency, which is 50Hz for PAL and 60Hz for NTSC (my case).

 

The TV's displays have a native refresh frequency (in my case 100Hz), so the TV needs to handle this difference somehow.

The LG TV's have a feature called "true motion", which means adding new interpolated frames between the existing ones.

However in the "game mode", which I used, this feature is disabled (since it causes some latency).

In this mode, the same frames are simply displayed two times to match 100Hz display's freqency.

Edited April 30, 2018 by TheMontezuma

[tane]

Ok, now I see. Even better scenario, because the shadows definitely would be something disgusting. So, I understand that there is no shadows even with 'true motion' enabled, just a latency.

 

The bright pixels could be an interference, but it's difficult to say. To see what is it, it is required to analyze the output of 1 frame in detail, as a raw data, and see if those pixels are there. It is interesting that those pixels have almost the same color light blue of the 'Ready', so maybe is not just a hardware interference, otherwise it is unlikely the same color.

Also at the left in the edge there is a concentration of random pixels. I have seen such effect in old devices, so the answer should be explained widely somewhere.

 

Would be interesting to know if the same happens with Sophia Rev. B, or if it's only with Rev. C.

 

 

Regarding the resolutions, for example the Monoprice device states that work with standard resolutions: 480, 576, 720, 1080, but Sophia outputs 900, 960, 1024, so it should be just required to adjust the output resolution to what is used in commercial devices, in order to have more compatibility.

Edited April 30, 2018 by tane

[TheMontezuma]

Would be interesting to know if the same happens with Sophia Rev. B, or if it's only with Rev. C.

 

This happnes only with Rev.C + LG 55UH8509 (4K).

No problems at all when connected to a Full HD TV.

This is why I was suspecting the upscaling algorithms of the 4K TV...

[tane]

Interesting. You said that it doesn't happen with a laptop, was the test done with only the TV screen on, and the laptop screen off (not both at the same time in order to control properly the resolution), and a DVI cable? Otherwise is not the same scenario.

 

To say that always the upscaling is done in the laptop when selecting different resolutions, I'm not 100% sure about that, it could be the TV, how can you know who is upscaling despite is always showing 2160p? If the laptop is upscaling, the TV must tell the laptop that it has a higher resolution. "Old" laptops with low maximum resolutions (let's say 1080) doesn't have the ability to upscale to 4k and they are shown properly in 4k TVs, so it is likely that the TV is upscaling in that case, and random pixels are not shown. And if doesn't happen with a laptop with the same conditions, it should be that the Sophia output has something different to the standard of a laptop.

 

Also would be interesting to know if the random pixels are shown with Sophia showing 1 color in full screen (without the "ready" and the square). If they are not shown it means that is something with the upscale, and not with the Sophia output.

[TheMontezuma]

Interesting. You said that it doesn't happen with a laptop, was the test done with only the TV screen on, and the laptop screen off (not both at the same time in order to control properly the resolution), and a DVI cable? Otherwise is not the same scenario.

 

To say that always the upscaling is done in the laptop when selecting different resolutions, I'm not 100% sure about that, it could be the TV, how can you know who is upscaling despite is always showing 2160p? If the laptop is upscaling, the TV must tell the laptop that it has a higher resolution. "Old" laptops with low maximum resolutions (let's say 1080) doesn't have the ability to upscale to 4k and they are shown properly in 4k TVs, so it is likely that the TV is upscaling in that case, and random pixels are not shown. And if doesn't happen with a laptop with the same conditions, it should be that the Sophia output has something different to the standard of a laptop.

 

Also would be interesting to know if the random pixels are shown with Sophia showing 1 color in full screen (without the "ready" and the square). If they are not shown it means that is something with the upscale, and not with the Sophia output.

 

Laptop and Sophia is a different test scenario, for sure.

And I don't really know if a laptop or a TV does the upscaling.

I could observe that playing a video with a laptop on the TV (2160p) was not quite smooth. This indicates upscaling performance issues, which I wouldn't expect form a TV.

The TV displays "2160p" when laptop is connected and "1600x900" when Sophia is connected.

 

On the other hand I have already seen similar pixel issues (on another HD display with a different video source) and it was caused at that time by a low quality cable.

[jc13]

 

I received mine today and had no luck at all. I could get it to work on my PC, but it didn't like the Sophia output at all. Mine is 16x9 and it outputs at 1600x900 according to the monitor - is yours maybe running a different core? Unrelated to the Monoprice box, I also have issues sometimes going into the U1MB setup - screen displays for a minute and then goes black with the monitor thinking I don't have an input connected. I wonder if there is a better / more compatible core for the Sophia that my monitor and the Monoprice box would behave better with.

 

 

I asked Simius for the 1536x960 core and was able to get the Sophia upgraded so the Monoprice unit works now (and it works really well), but when going Sophia DVI straight into my monitor, I have the same type of issues as I did with the 16x9 core. With both 1600x900 and 1536x960, the monitor occasionally loses sync in the U1MB setup screen (and most frequently on the 4th tab over - SIO settings). The screen just goes black, but I can still hear the input noises as I navigate the menu. Also, Bounty Bob Strikes Back will not show the title screen when connected to the monitor through DVI (sync issue). Pressing the joystick fire button will start the game, the screen reappears (and the monitor shows the DVI input is now connected), and I can play the game. Running the DVI output through the Monoprice box and then HDMI to the monitor corrects both of those problems. Just curious if anyone else is having the same issues and if you had found any workarounds.

[tane]

@jc13: would be great if you can upload some pictures to see how it looks.

 

There are a lot of findings, the first post could be updated with important details.

Edited May 3, 2018 by tane

[Sugarland]

I would like to share with you my experience with connecting SOPHIA DVI (1600x900) to the 4K TV: LG 55UH8509

 

The TV shows the (scaled up) picture, however the picture is not what I expected

You can see strange artifacts, like dynamically lit pixels. The TV shows 1600x900 as a video resolution in the status line.

Configuration settings can't fix the problem, which I guess is caused by the 4K upscaling algorithms

..........

 

When I connect my laptop to the TV, it displays perfectly sharp picture.

 

Does anybody have different experience with 4K TVs?

 

Is it a sparkling effect on random pixels that you see? I had this problem with a pi zero connected to my benq computer monitor. I fixed it by using a very thick gauge HDMI cable. The cheap thin HDMI cable was really bad. A medium gauge cable was improved but still sparkled. Then I used one of the really thick cables that doesn't bend well and the pi zero looks perfect with that. I can't find the model or brand name of it right now.

[jc13]

@jc13: would be great if you can upload some pictures to see how it looks.

 

Here are two videos showing what I was describing - haven't really tested any further than this though. I don't know if this is just my monitor being finicky, but it seems to be consistent. Also, just as additional info, running the DVI out from the Sophia into the Monoprice (https://www.monoprice.com/product?p_id=8124#) converter seems to clear up both of these problems.

 

The first is in the Side loader menu and it will stay up until I hit the 4th tab.

 

IMG_3104-1.mov

 

 

This one shows me launching BBSB and how it will sync on the title screen for a second and then drop out until I hit the joystick button to start the game.

 

IMG_3105-1.mov

Edited May 3, 2018 by jc13

[TheMontezuma]

 

Is it a sparkling effect on random pixels that you see? I had this problem with a pi zero connected to my benq computer monitor. I fixed it by using a very thick gauge HDMI cable. The cheap thin HDMI cable was really bad. A medium gauge cable was improved but still sparkled. Then I used one of the really thick cables that doesn't bend well and the pi zero looks perfect with that. I can't find the model or brand name of it right now.

 

Thanks for the hint. I gave it a try and purchased another DVI-HDMI cable.

This time I went to the computer shop and asked for a cable to connect a computer to the 4K TV.

And the weird pixels are gone So I'm a little bit dissapointed about the "Amazon Basics" cable quality, which was not good enough for 4K ...

 

 

4K game on a 4K TV:

 

Edited May 4, 2018 by TheMontezuma

[Sugarland]

 

Thanks for the hint. I gave it a try and purchased another DVI-HDMI cable.

This time I went to the computer shop and asked for a cable to connect a computer to the 4K TV.

And the weird pixels are gone So I'm a little bit dissapointed about the "Amazon Basics" cable quality, which was not good enough for 4K ...

 

You're welcome. I'm not entirely sure it was the amazon cable's fault. I had presumed the tiny pi zero was outputting a weak signal. Maybe the Sophia is as well? I don't know if this is true I had presumed it since the thick cable fixed the symptom.

[jc13]

I managed to get the Monoprice a/v combiner stripped down and found a spot for it where the RF modulator was. So far it works great - just hope it's reliable! I really went back and forth on the cutout for the HDMI connector, but eventually decided to go for it. Still got some cleanup to do, so no pic of that area yet... I also decided to add an additional voltage regulator to supply the combiner because it draws about 600mA when it's sync'd up. On the 1200XL there's a spot on the right side of the aluminum heat sink that looks like it was a potential location for another regulator that didn't make it into the design, so I used it.

 

[Level42]

Sophia Rev.C DVI on a Dell 1905FP. All I can say is WOW!

 

I don't know. I guess it has the same kind of feel to it like CD vs. vinyl audio. Yes it's perfect. Yes it's sharp as shark's teeth. But somehow....it just doesn't feel right. Probably my mind being programmed for 35 years playing this era of gameconsoles and computers with CRTs.

 

However, I'll admit straight away that the DVI Sophia is a great option. I have a NEC LCD monitor for my ST that does all ST resolutions so I expect it to run A8 picture just fine. And Sophia is great because it takes the analog to digital conversion by the monitor out of the loop. That really is it's strongest point IMHO. The ST picture I have now shows a lot of interference (vertical bars) and I have no idea what's causing it, but even if those were absent, I still see the (rather poor) analogue to digital conversion.

 

Maybe Simius can develop a digital out Sophia for the ST range ?

Edited May 14, 2018 by Level42

[TheMontezuma]

One more try:

A monitor with a native resolution: 1600 x 900

In reality, the picture is much more sharper than on the photo

[+mytek]

One more try:

A monitor with a native resolution: 1600 x 900

kolko.JPG

In reality, the picture is much more sharper than on the photo

 

Is that core available for download?

[Sugarland]

 

 

I asked Simius for the 1536x960 core and was able to get the Sophia upgraded so the Monoprice unit works now (and it works really well), but when going Sophia DVI straight into my monitor, I have the same type of issues as I did with the 16x9 core. With both 1600x900 and 1536x960, the monitor occasionally loses sync in the U1MB setup screen (and most frequently on the 4th tab over - SIO settings). The screen just goes black, but I can still hear the input noises as I navigate the menu. Also, Bounty Bob Strikes Back will not show the title screen when connected to the monitor through DVI (sync issue). Pressing the joystick fire button will start the game, the screen reappears (and the monitor shows the DVI input is now connected), and I can play the game. Running the DVI output through the Monoprice box and then HDMI to the monitor corrects both of those problems. Just curious if anyone else is having the same issues and if you had found any workarounds.

 

It might be fixed by a thicker+higher quality video cable. It's worth a try.

[hwrd]

I've looked and looked, but cannot find a website where the Sophia board is available.

 

Is the Sophia board available currently?

[+DrVenkman]

I've looked and looked, but cannot find a website where the Sophia board is available.

 

Is the Sophia board available currently?

 

Please read the last couple pages of posts on any long thread.

 

To answer the question, yes. Message Simius and he will get back to you on pricing and current availability.

[hwrd]

 

Please read the last couple pages of posts on any long thread.

 

To answer the question, yes. Message Simius and he will get back to you on pricing and current availability.

 

thanks, shall do!

[TheMontezuma]

 

Is that core available for download?

 

No.

When you order a Sophia, Simius will program it according to your preferred resolution.