Heaven/TQA Posted January 16, 2018 Share Posted January 16, 2018 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiwilove Posted January 16, 2018 Share Posted January 16, 2018 (edited) It would be far better to post video clips directly here - that you have captured yourself - showing their true frame rates. Videos posted up on Youtube - are not necessarily 100% accurate?. Harvey Edited January 16, 2018 by kiwilove Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted January 16, 2018 Share Posted January 16, 2018 (edited) Seeing the high quality of the game ... that even kicks the butt of the ST version, there still comes the question in front: Why the heck did they do that? There have been such little enhancements needed to put the 70s Hardware into the 90s.... Mainly the GTIA Chip had to be changed, to get more colorful moving objects on the screen , and to get at least one channel that allows real basses, as even the TIA chip of the 2600 plays stable bass sounds.... In special mode , GTIA also could allow to handle 80 columns... which means 640 pixel .... Changing the design of GTIA had also been cheaper than to create a full new computer... but they did nothing .... Edited January 16, 2018 by emkay 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+CyranoJ Posted January 16, 2018 Share Posted January 16, 2018 Pretty sure it's called an Amiga.... 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZylonBane Posted January 17, 2018 Share Posted January 17, 2018 Not sure which is more annoying. Kiwilove - posting - like - this, or emkay .... posting... like... this. Learn to use punctuation, you semi-literate knobs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_The Doctor__ Posted January 17, 2018 Share Posted January 17, 2018 ZyloneBane, over the years I've learned there is a language barrier that has a hard time conveying thoughts, feelings, meanings. This disconnect leads to misunderstanding and frustration. Please take such missteps and punctuation pauses, ambiguity and other non-sequitur as a grain of salt in the otherwise tasty conversation. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VladR Posted January 17, 2018 Author Share Posted January 17, 2018 (edited) for any hardware related timings please refer to Avery's brilliant Altirra Hardware Reference guide... since 30 years I suspect Wsync to take up to 105 cycles til CPU is "in sync" with ANTIC... not that WSYNC always takes 105 cycles... that would make it a total waste to use... as we would have less cycles per raster interrupt than VIC2's 63... I haven't yet been using that guide. Good point! I was reading the description on the 3 stages of STA WSYNC in DeReAtari - so I understand that the STA WSYNC itself doesn't take 105 cycles. It's just that the Antic pulls down the RDY line on 6502, which freezes CPU until the horizontal sync. 6502 is available for bigger portion of those 105 cycles - but for the DLI execution, obviously not for the main code. For what it's worth... maybe. Some cycles could be regained by turning PMGs off in DMACTL where they're not used. By the looks of the DLI structure within the game it could probably be done without need to add more. That's 5 cycles per scanline saved for no PMGs where they're not needed at a cost of maybe 24 cycles. Potential cycles saved per frame could be about 300. They already use narrow DMA mode for the text area, so it seems they did at least attempt some cycle saving measures. Interesting. ~300 is quite a lot (hell, I spend effort to chase 30 cycles). That's a great savings! I worked a bit more on the hybrid solution: - figured out a way how to completely avoid the beam chasing, but without excessive cost of the HScroll on the CPU (that would be higher than just lost cycles due to beam chasing). - The visuals took a hit in terms of less dramatic perspective, but it's an option that is worth considering. - Most probably, after 5 minutes of playing, it wouldn't feel weird (as it does now), I suppose... - Also, since I don't have to compute the HScroll table for the 11 scanlines that would still be done on Antic, that's going to save couple hundred cycles further down the frame (that weren't in any calculations above) So, this is the original perspective [37 lines on CPU + 11 on Antic] @ 3,555 cycles (for HScroll): And this is the new perspective [48 lines on CPU, no Antic] @ 3,625 cycles (for HScroll): If I want 60 fps, something's gotta go, unfortunately... I've cleaned up my Excel worksheet by deleting dozen columns that are no longer needed, so it's much easier to orientate there now: Edited January 17, 2018 by VladR 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CRTGAMER Posted January 17, 2018 Share Posted January 17, 2018 I own both the 5200 and 7800 Ballblazer game carts and never noticed a frame rate difference between the two. I do like the 5200 version for the analog stick float control. Interesting thread on the coding, good luck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted January 17, 2018 Share Posted January 17, 2018 I like this thread... But following questions I have.... Dimension X pulls off a checkboard in 50/60 fps (no split screen though) and several C64 demos, too (floating mem of course ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_The Doctor__ Posted January 17, 2018 Share Posted January 17, 2018 Because we can? Because it might be done better, or differently? Who knows what will come of it, maybe something special. At the very least we learn a lot! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted January 17, 2018 Share Posted January 17, 2018 4:40 ff. 50 fps e.g. Of course not in a game scenario and not in wide screen.... 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted January 17, 2018 Share Posted January 17, 2018 DX: Of course video does not show it correctly because its too fast 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted January 17, 2018 Share Posted January 17, 2018 Trailblazer 2 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted January 17, 2018 Share Posted January 17, 2018 Uj 6:30 I was not aware that TB2 is scrolling full screen and mirroring the floor. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted January 17, 2018 Share Posted January 17, 2018 4:40 ff. 50 fps e.g. Of course not in a game scenario and not in wide screen.... It's just that those coders should add zooming glasses to their programs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted January 17, 2018 Share Posted January 17, 2018 Esp trailblazer 2.... what is there fundamental different to B.B.? Screen is full of DLIs... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_The Doctor__ Posted January 17, 2018 Share Posted January 17, 2018 (edited) the commodore demo has no purpose... and as for trailblazer typical youtube video not an adept person playing it.... this is a two player game also and the youtube video encoder can't keep up... slightly better player, head to head.... wasn't there enhanced trailblazer for other platforms as well, I'm probably wrong... edit here's one! trailblazer 2 is that a do over or fan make, I don't remember it... Edited January 17, 2018 by _The Doctor__ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted January 17, 2018 Share Posted January 17, 2018 what I wanted to showing other examples is that on different platforms its possible to pull off larger checkboards... maybe to direct VladR in a different way... I fundamental believe that 60 fps should be easy... Btw. Never understood why TB on A8 uses Antic D while slower platforms like C64 with weaker tech support for this kind of fx would outperform A8... and use higher res. look at the c64... (or other charbased systems) it does not have Antic to support line based hscrolling nor has 4k adress per line... so it does it "only" by switching charsets and VIC banks etc...and it has far less CPU cycles per rasterline. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted January 17, 2018 Share Posted January 17, 2018 https://youtu.be/jsVr1FkQLZA?t=135 non sprite system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted January 17, 2018 Share Posted January 17, 2018 that scroller is 50 fps but same tech like ballblazer in x-direction... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted January 17, 2018 Share Posted January 17, 2018 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted January 17, 2018 Share Posted January 17, 2018 the commodore demo has no purpose... and as for trailblazer typical youtube video not an adept person playing it.... this is a two player game also and the youtube video encoder can't keep up... slightly better player, head to head.... wasn't there enhanced trailblazer for other platforms as well, I'm probably wrong... edit here's one! trailblazer 2 is that a do over or fan make, I don't remember it... the c64 demo has value as it shows (as i have written in a non game scenario and using I guess most of the 64,5 kb) and uses all tricks of books of c64 but... an 0,9 MHz snail can pull off fullscreen checkboard which has no LMS per line and can not scroll more than 16 pixel per line plus needs even synced ("stable") raster IRQ to do so (not like the flickering of TB and TB2).... so the question is thinking out of the box maybe? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_The Doctor__ Posted January 17, 2018 Share Posted January 17, 2018 are you saying that the demo could have been worked into some sort of fast reaction game and keep everything rolling? I understand grabbing some ideas from it just have to think on what would apply... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roland p Posted January 17, 2018 Share Posted January 17, 2018 (edited) My version (Atari 2600 version at the end of the comparison video) didn't really calculate at all. It just took a value and LSR'ed it. I got that from Chris' Juno-First. This is why the tiles are in heights (from far to close): 1px, 2px, 4px, 8px, 16px... The '3D>2D' calculations (for calculation of objects on screen) where also made easy that way. Just use LSR to zoom out. Only one 'expensive' 8-bit x 8-bit with the higher 8-bit value as result was used. As a result the whole thing (including unrolled kernel of 2KB) would fit in 4KB (but no sound/AI). The following demo could be interesting because it uses the same LSR method, but it uses the rest value for anti aliassing. It also uses a 256-byte correction table for smoother movement. I found the above checkerboards, where the tiles grow slower when they approach, prettier, but if you want something really cheap, here it is Edited January 17, 2018 by roland p 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted January 17, 2018 Share Posted January 17, 2018 https://youtu.be/jsVr1FkQLZA?t=135 non sprite system. One Trail. the c64 demo has value as it shows (as i have written in a non game scenario and using I guess most of the 64,5 kb) and uses all tricks of books of c64 but... an 0,9 MHz snail can pull off fullscreen checkboard which has no LMS per line and can not scroll more than 16 pixel per line plus needs even synced ("stable") raster IRQ to do so (not like the flickering of TB and TB2).... so the question is thinking out of the box maybe? C64 has the sprite system. The Checkerboard has no "anti-aliasing" Btw. Never understood why TB on A8 uses Antic D while slower platforms like C64 with weaker tech support for this kind of fx would outperform A8... and use higher res. That is wrong thinking. There is no benefit by the higher resolution. Just some imaginary friend ? The C64 also can put more CPU into the checkerboard, because the ball can be full animated by some pointer settings, where the PMg needs vertical writings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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