Question about missing 50Hz-fullscreenmode in newest Stella version

[AW127]

I have a question about STELLA, maybe anybody can answer this, cause i can not find a solution for this at the moment and i tried around 1 hour now.

 

Here i have two computers, a newer one with WIN7 on it and my old PC which i use for emulating games. On this old PC i still have STELLA version 3.6.1 and on my new PC i have the latest STELLA release, which is 5.0.2.

 

In V3.6.1 it works here, that when i start a NTSC rom, the emulator switch to 640x480 and 120Hz and when i start a PAL rom, the emulator use 800x600 with 100Hz. So this is ideal, cause 100Hz is divisible through 50FPS (PAL) and 120Hz is divisible through 60FPS (NTSC). Perfect scrolling and how i wanted it. Strangly, when i open stella.ini of V3.6.1 i only see, the 640x480 screenresolution which is adjusted for NTSC-games and i don`t see the 800x600 resolution. So i can not remember how i set this fullscreen-resolution for PAL-games back in the days when i installed V3.6.1, or if STELLA use 800x600 with 100Hz automatically for PAL-roms? But it works like it should in V3.6.1.

 

Yesterday i noticed, that this dont work in my STELLA V5.0.2 on the newer PC. Here STELLA seems to use all the time the screen-resolution which i use for my Windows, which is 1280x1024 with 60Hz. For NTSC-Games this is okay, cause 60Hz and 60FPS = perfect. But sadly i noticed, that V5.0.2 also use this 60Hz fullscreen-mode, when i start a PAL-game. A 50Hz mode is no problem for the BenQ BL912 monitor, which i use on my newer PC. So it`s not a monitor-problem. But how to set it in V5.0.2? Also in the stella.ini of 5.0.2 i don`t see a fullres-option anymore, so Stella use 1280x1024 (the windows-resolution) all the time. This would be no problem, but how can i force STELLA 5.0.2 now, to use 1280x1024 - 50Hz for PAL-games. The BenQ BL912 monitor can show such 1280x1024 in 60Hz, 50Hz or 75Hz mode, so this would be no problem. But i dont find the option in STELLA and V5.0.2 dont switch 50hz/60Hz fullscreen-mode automatically like V3.6.1 did it.

 

Strange. Or is it simply not possible in newer versions of STELLA to use fullscreen-modes with different Hz-values? But this would make no sense, it would be a degradation and normally emulators get better and better with newer releases. Hope that anybody can answer my question and tell me, what i must do with V5.0.2 that it works like V3.6.1 for all my PAL roms. Playing PAL roms in a 60Hz fullscreenmode is not as good as playing them with 50Hz, especially for games which scrolls.

 

 

[+stephena]

There is talk going on with the Stella developers related to this topic as we speak. It won't be fixed for the upcoming 5.1 release, but it is definitely one of the things I want to get done for 5.2.

[AW127]

There is talk going on with the Stella developers related to this topic as we speak. It won't be fixed for the upcoming 5.1 release, but it is definitely one of the things I want to get done for 5.2.

 

 

Ah okay. Thanks for bringing this in discussion. Then it`s really not possible in newer versions, but was possible in older versions? Why this feature was removed, has it a special reason? It`s definitely a disadvantage now, when playing PAL-games in fullscreen-mode.

 

And please answer me the question, if my STELLA V3.6.1 automatically choose "800 x 600 - 100Hz" fullscreen-mode for PAL-roms, or where the user can set this 800x600 mode? I really can not remember, how i made this setting years ago when i installed V3.6.1 (if the user can do it anyway). Or STELLA has chosen this mode automatically for PAL-fullscreen and it was fortuity, that i had set 100Hz for 800x600 in Windows before? As i mentioned, in the stella.ini of V3.6.1 i can only see 640x480 written and this is the fullscreen-mode for NTSC-roms. But i don`t see any config-file, where the 800x600 mode is set for PAL.

Edited January 21, 2018 by AW127

[+stephena]

It complicated certain things, but I guess the main reason was that I got near zero feedback from PAL users, and nobody complained about it before. I don't have a PAL system, and have never used one. Now that two other Stella developers are based in Germany and use PAL systems, we have someone to test and re-implement this functionality.

[+stephena]

I've added an issue for this on Github: https://github.com/stella-emu/stella/issues/285

[+stephena]

I really can't answer anything on how 3.6.1 worked; it was so long ago that I forget. When we work on re-implementing the feature, we will do research to see how it worked in older versions and attempt to replicate it. At that point, we may have test builds so users (like yourself) can test if it works for them.

[AW127]

It complicated certain things, but I guess the main reason was that I got near zero feedback from PAL users, and nobody complained about it before.

 

 

I think, this is because in the gamerange of the Atari VCS-2600 are not many games which have vertical or horizontal scrolling. In games which have only one-screen or which switches from screen-to-screen (like for example "Pitfall 2") the difference between 50Hz or 60Hz can not be seen so easily (although, i also recognize it in "Phoenix" for example, when the blue or purple birds fly around). But when you play games which have scrolling, like the new "Super Cobra Arcade" for example, then it really makes a difference, if the frames-per-second of the game, fit to the Hertz-refresh-rate of the screen.

 

 

When we work on re-implementing the feature, we will do research to see how it worked in older versions and attempt to replicate it. At that point, we may have test builds so users (like yourself) can test if it works for them.

 

 

Cool. Of course i can help in testing the mode then. Can do it on my PC-system and on the systems of my friends.

Edited January 21, 2018 by AW127

[Thomas Jentzsch]

Then it`s really not possible in newer versions, but was possible in older versions? Why this feature was removed, has it a special reason?

The option (-fullres) got removed when switching from SDL to SDL2 (version 4.0). Not sure why this happened, maybe its easy to bring it back.

 

Or maybe not.

[DirtyHairy]

Do you actually see any issues (jerking, slowdowns) in PAL games, or are you just wondering about the missing option? Be aware that most VCS games don't display 50Hz or 60Hz straight, but the actual frame rate varies from game to game and will almost never match your display refresh rate exactly.

Edited January 21, 2018 by DirtyHairy

[AW127]

Do you actually see any issues (jerking, slowdowns) in PAL games, or are you just wondering about the missing option? Be aware that most VCS games don't display 50Hz or 60Hz straight, but the actual frame rate varies from game to game and will almost never match your display refresh rate exactly.

 

 

No slowdowns of course, they run with the correct speed, but not as smooth as it should be. The difference can easily be seen and that the FPS must fit to the Hz of the screen-resolution is a known fact in the retro-gaming scene. It`s the same when you play PAL-games with the Amiga-emulator WinUAE or C64-games with HOXS64, CCS64 or VICE. When the refresh-rate of the screen is not divisible or the same like the frames-per-second in which a game runs, then there are problems in the scrolling. Things like jerking or little jumps after a second or so then happens. Very good these things can be seen when you try a C64-game like "Dropzone" or a Amiga-game like "Uridium 2", where the scrolling is very fast. Here you can see a big big difference between a 50Hz and a 60Hz fullscreenmode. While these game scrolls perfectly smooth with 50Hz-mode, it looks much more jerky with 60Hz. Instead of 50Hz also 100Hz can be used, for example on older crt-monitors.

 

But when you look properly, also in onescreen-games which dont scroll, it can be seen. The birds in the PAL-version of "Phoenix" for example - they fly smoother when you play the game with a 50Hz or 100Hz fullscreen-mode. In 60Hz mode, it looks little bit different. So also here it can be seen and i think this difference was the reason, why Hz-switching worked in older STELLA versions.

Edited January 22, 2018 by AW127

[AW127]

Now that two other Stella developers are based in Germany and use PAL systems, we have someone to test and re-implement this functionality.

 

 

Hm, after i read this sentence again, the sense here is not clear to me. Normally, it don`t matters if you live in a PAL or NTSC country when it comes to Emulators like STELLA or others. PC-monitors are the same in all countries i think and all CRT-monitors can show 100Hz in resolutions like 640x480 or 800x600. And when it comes to flatscreen-monitors, then it only depends on the monitor-modell, if it can show a 50Hz fullscreen-mode or if not (some can not go under 56Hz and show a blackscreen then). It`s not like the PAL/NTSC problem that exists, when it comes to consoles plugged on TV`s. Here it depends on, if you live in a PAL or NTSC country and if you have a PAL or NTSC console. When STELLA is used, also people in the USA can insert PAL-roms in the emulator and use a 50Hz or 100Hz screenmode, if their monitor-modell can do it.

Edited January 22, 2018 by AW127

[Thomas Jentzsch]

It makes sense, because we two will now make sure that the PAL games play best too.

[+stephena]

Hm, after i read this sentence again, the sense here is not clear to me.

 

I think it makes perfect sense, and cannot see how anyone would misinterpret it. I don't use PAL systems, don't have access to them, and have never (and probably will never) be able to test on them. So it's likely that things will slip through the cracks, since I don't have the hardware physically in front of me.

 

Two other developers are now involved with Stella, and they do use PAL, have the hardware, and use it day-to-day. So it is obvious that now we can improve things.

 

I also don't have a CRT hooked to a computer, and haven't for the past 10 years (and will never again in the future). So I cannot personally test these things. But we have other developers that will be able to do so.

[AW127]

It makes sense, because we two will now make sure that the PAL games play best too.

 

Didn`t knew, that a real PAL-console with PAL-TV is necessary, to bring back a 50Hz or 100Hz-fullscreenmode in an emulator, but okay. Chief-thing is, that this function comes back in 5.2, like Stephen said and this is very good. And also good that YOU in on it as a developer.

 

Edited January 23, 2018 by AW127

[AW127]

 

I think it makes perfect sense, and cannot see how anyone would misinterpret it. I don't use PAL systems, don't have access to them, and have never (and probably will never) be able to test on them. So it's likely that things will slip through the cracks, since I don't have the hardware physically in front of me.

 

Two other developers are now involved with Stella, and they do use PAL, have the hardware, and use it day-to-day. So it is obvious that now we can improve things.

 

I also don't have a CRT hooked to a computer, and haven't for the past 10 years (and will never again in the future). So I cannot personally test these things. But we have other developers that will be able to do so.

 

 

Not "misinterpreting", but searching for the sense, because the whole PAL/NTSC/SECAM problem is not available at all, when it comes to Emulator-using. They can show all games and all monitors over the world can do the same fullscreen-modes, only depending on the modell which the user has bought maybe. This was my thinking here. Didn`t knew that peoples, which have real NTSC-consoles, never run a PAL-rom in STELLA.

 

But i think i understand that you mean, they have more experience in playing the PAL-versions of the games on their real PAL-Atari-consoles and therefore they know better how they must look in fullscreen. But seriously, you really don`t need a real PAL-console or PAL-system at all, to see a difference between a scrolling PAL-game, running in a 50Hz or a 60Hz fullscreen-mode in STELLA. Everybody can see it. And a CRT-monitor is also not needed absolutely, cause there are lots of flatscreen-monitors, which can do 50Hz-mode, like for example many BenQ modells. Even 100Hz some of the new monitors can show.

 

On the other hand it`s good, when the STELLA-developers try to be as close to the real system as they can be. This could be an advantage maybe, when a german developer which has a real PAL-console can compare his STELLA then to the real system. But in this Hz-fullscreen-problem here, it`s not that the games runs bad or with false speed in STELLA. Only problem is, that STELLA should use the correct Hertz-mode in fullscreen that the scrolling is perfectly smooth, everything else already is perfect with PAL-games. Is a real system needed for this?

 

But okay, no real reason for discussion here, cause the important thing is, that this is in the discussion to be fixed and changed back again, like it was in the older Stella versions. And so it don`t matters, which persons fix it and i am happy that this will come again. Tried around for hours in newest STELLA without success to find this f...... function before *lol*, but it`s gone in newer versions. I hadn`t planned on that and first thought, this setting could be found in another menue in newer STELLA-versions or somewhere else in the config-files. Nevertheless, i can still not remember, how i have set "800X600 - 100Hz" as fullscreen-mode in my STELLA 3.6.1 and can even not find one line in config-files or in the STELLA-menue, where the 800x600 resolution is mentioned. Maybe the V3.6.1 uses this resolution automatically as PAL-fullscreen and it was only hazard that i had set 100Hz for this mode before in Windows? But actually, this also don`t matters, it`s only important that STELLA use different fullscreen-modes (resolutions for example) for PAL and NTSC roms again. And if so, then it`s not so important which resolutions these are, cause the user then can set the correct Hertz-value by himself for the two different fullscreen-resolutions (in Windows or other used operating-system).

Edited January 23, 2018 by AW127

[Thomas Jentzsch]

There used to be a command line parameter -fullres where you were able to define a resolution for fullscreen mode. It's mentioned in the docs for 3.6.1.

This parameter did not define the refresh rate, so that you got 100Hz must be the result of the resolution you have chosen.

[AW127]

There used to be a command line parameter -fullres where you were able to define a resolution for fullscreen mode. It's mentioned in the docs for 3.6.1.

 

This parameter did not define the refresh rate, so that you got 100Hz must be the result of the resolution you have chosen.

 

Yes Thomas, i know this. The -fullres parameter in older STELLA versions like for example 3.6.1, can be set or changed in the stella.ini file. But the fullscreen-resolution, which the user set here, is used by STELLA only for NTSC-games then. In my case, i have set 640x480 here, but PAL-roms runs in a 800x600 fullscreen-mode. I mean, its very good, that older STELLA here use two different resolutions, then it`s easy to set the correct Hz-values for both resolutions and then NTSC and PAL runs in perfect Hz.

 

Just wondered, how i set these 800x600 resolution in which my PAL roms run? These value is mentioned nowhere in the config-files. Maybe older STELLA automatically use the next higher standard-resolution for PAL-roms? Which means - when a user set 640x480 for NTSC-fullscreen-mode, then maybe STELLA choose 800x600 for PAL mode? I will try this out and look what happens.

[DirtyHairy]

I can't resist There is no such thing as "perfect Hz" when it comes to the VCS. The (vertical part of the) TV signal has to be generated manually, and the number of the scanlines in each frame differs from game to game. In other words: the frame rate differs and is almost *never* 50Hz / 60Hz sharp.

[AW127]

I can't resist There is no such thing as "perfect Hz" when it comes to the VCS. The (vertical part of the) TV signal has to be generated manually, and the number of the scanlines in each frame differs from game to game. In other words: the frame rate differs and is almost *never* 50Hz / 60Hz sharp.

 

 

Yes, this is true. Also the C64 for example, has not exactly 50Hz output, it`s 50.12Hz, but when it differs under about 1Hz, then it has absolutely no influence on the most monitors, when it comes to smoothness in things likes scrolling for example.

 

This can easily be seen. Take for example the HOXS64 Emulator, use a screen-resolution with it, where you have set 50Hz or 100Hz mode before and then try the C64-game "Dropzone". Now fly in any of the two directions (left/right) and look deeply on the scrolling ground. You will see absolutly smooth scrolling, without any frameskip, jerking and so on. When you now go in the HOXS64 Video-menue then you can change the FPS there between (50Hz / 50.12 Large FIR / 50.12 Multistage FIR) but inflluence on the scrolling when a 50Hz fullscreenmode runs, is minimum to nothing. Tried this on different monitors and i see no difference. The difference comes, when for example a 51Hz fullscreenmode will be used. Then the scrolling games jumps one time in about 5 seconds or so. But when you try HOXS64 in a 60Hz-mode then you will see the difference in one second. Microstuttering constantly when graphics scrolls.

 

What i want to say with this is, that it`s true, the consoles may not have exactly the 50Hz, but the scolling in all emulators i tried so far (and this are alot) is absolutely perfect smooth for PAL-games when 50Hz or 100Hz will be used. No matter if the hardware has 50.12Hz or something like that. Using a fullscreen-mode like 60Hz for PAL-games is even more worse than using 75Hz. I tried around with this in WinUAE. For example in some Amiga-intros, when text scrolls on the screen horizontally. Looks perfect with 100Hz and 50Hz. In 75Hz mode, the scrolling text wobbles slightly (looks like microstuttering) and in 60Hz mode the text wobbles, that it can easily be seen.

 

There are also lots of entrys in different retro-forums, where this is described, sometimes also together with VSYNC, Triple Buffering and how all these things work. You need, when you want smooth scrolling in 50-frames-per-second-running PAL-games, a fullscreen-mode with the same or with a divisible Hz-rate.

[AW127]

Hm, i just read the entries here to this thing that was posted here:

https://github.com/s...ella/issues/285

 

I am not a programmer, but the entries there seems to go in deeper and deeper technical discussions. English is not my native language, but there are also many german people involved, so i write some sentences in my native-language, to make it clear what this Hertz-thing is about.

 

Es muss ja auch einen Grund gegeben haben, warum die alten STELLA Versionen diese Hz-Umschaltfunktion hatten, das Problem fiel wohl schon damals auf. Der Emulator muss ja nicht von selbst irgendetwas mit dem Monitor synchronisieren, ich sehe es ja bei den meisten anderen Emulatoren, dass es oftmals (wenn auch nicht bei allen Emu`s) schon zum perfekten Scrolling reicht, wenn die Monitor-Hz zu den Frames/Sekunde des jeweiligen Spiels (PAL/NTSC) passen. Da kann VSYNC oder andere ähnliche Funktionen bei einigen der Emulatoren sogar deaktiviert bleiben bei mir hier. Ein Beispiel dafür ist etwa ZSNES.

 

- es geht nur darum, dass der Emulator von selbst in zwei verschiedene Fullscreen-Modi (Auflösungen) umschalten soll, je nachdem ob der Benutzer ein PAL-Spiel oder ein NTSC-Spiel im STELLA startet. Denn tut der Emulator dies, dann kann der User seine Hertz-Zahlen, die er für die jeweiligen Auflösungen benutzen will, dementsprechend im WINDOWS anpassen. Dann stelle ich mir einfach einen 50Hz Modus für diejenige Auflösung ein, in der PAL-Spiele starten und eine 60Hz-Auflösung für diejenige Auflösung, in der ich NTSC-Spiele starte. Das war es auch schon.

 

- und genau dies macht eben die alte STELLA V3.6.1 Version. Sie erkennt, wenn ein PAL-Rom gestartet wird und schaltet dann, wie hier in meinem Fall auf dem alten PC, in den 800x600 Fullscreenmodus um, für den ich (da ich am alten Rechner einen CRT-Monitor nutze), dann 100Hz eingestellt habe. NTSC-Roms startet V3.6.1 im 640x480 Modus, für den ich 120Hz eingestellt habe. Das ist perfekt so.

 

- was mir jedoch nicht klar ist bei der alten STELLA Version, das ist die Tatsache, dass ich weder in den Emulator-config-Files, noch in einem der STELLA Menüs die Einstellung für den PAL-Fullscreen-Modus finde. Im "stella.ini" File kann der User einen Fullscreenmodus festlegen (in meinem Fall 640x480), jedoch nutzt V3.6.1 diesen dann nur für gestartete NTSC-Roms. Die Frage die ich mir stelle ist, wo habe ich damals diesen 800x600 PAL-Fullscreenmodus festgelegt, oder hat STELLA hier nur einfach die nächst-höhere Standardauflösung zu 640x480 genommen, da ich diese ja für die NTSC-Roms festgelegt hatte? Irgendwo muss ich doch auch die 800x600 festgelegt haben. Die entsprechenden Hertz-Zahlen hatte ich mir dann damals bei der V3.6.1 im Nachhinein im WINDOWS eingestellt, nachdem ich gemerkt hatte, dass der Emulator zwei verschiedene Fullscreen-Auflösungen benutzt, je nachdem ob es sich um ein PAL oder ein NTSC Spiel handelt, welches man startet.

 

- mir ist natürlich klar, dass es am Atari VCS-2600 wahrscheinlich sowieso keine Spiele gibt, die absolut perfekt und ruckelfrei scrollen wie es viele Games auf 8bit oder 16bit Rechnern oder Konsolen tun. Auf solchen Geräten fällt diese ganze "Bildschirm-Hertz zu Frames/Sek des Spiels" natürlich noch viel mehr auf als am VCS-2600, wo es wahrscheinlich eh kein perfektes Scrolling gibt. "Super Cobra Arcade" macht das für VCS2600-Verhältnisse schon wirklich gut, obwohl man natürlich auch hier nicht von perfektem Scrolling sprechen kann, was wohl auch gar nicht geht am VCS2600. Aber wenn nun zu diesem technisch-bedingten leichten Ruckeln im Scrolling eines solchen Spiels, auch noch ein zusätzliches Mini-vibrieren oder Mini-stottern der Bodenlandschaft hinzukommt, weil der Bildschirm von Zeit zu Zeit leichte Springer hat (was er bei 60Hz hat wenn ein 50FPS Spiel läuft) dann sieht man da definitiv nochmal einen Unterschied. Man sieht es auch, was ich ja schon erwähnt hatte, bei den schnell über den Bildschirm fliegenden Vögeln in der PAL-Version des Spiels "Phoenix" (Level 3 und Level 4 die blauen und lilanen Feinde). Wenn man sich da mal einen der Sprites raussucht und ihn genau beobachtet wie er am Screen dargestellt wird während des Flugs, dann erkennt man da einen Unterschied, ob die PAL-Version des Spiels auf einem 50Hz-Fullscreenmodus oder einem 60Hz-Fullscreenmodus läuft. Diese Sprites scheinen, wenn die Hz nicht zu den FPS passen, ganz leicht zu vibrieren und dies wird schlimmer je schneller deren Bewegung ist.

 

- also, nicht dass wir uns falsch verstehen, ich bin bestimmt keiner der jetzt hier nach der Nadel im Heuhaufen sucht, um einen "Bug" oder sowas in der Art in STELLA zu finden und ich bin auch nicht überempfindlich was jetzt die Emulation betrifft. STELLA ist super, das ist mir schon klar. Aber er hat sich in diesem einen Punkt nunmal verschlechtert gegenüber den alten Versionen. Man hat nicht mehr die Möglichkeit, zwei unterschiedliche Fullscreen-Auflösungen für PAL und NTSC Spiele zu benutzen was dazu führt, dass man dann logischerweise auch nicht mehr zwei verschiedene Hertz-Zahlen für PAL und NTSC einstellen kann. Und das ist schlecht, denn bei allen anderen Emulatoren die ich kenne, egal für welches System, kann man zwischen verschiedenen Fullscreen-Auflösungen auswählen und der User kann sich vorher im Windows dann die Hz-Zahlen einrichten die er will und dann eben direkt im Emulator diejenigen Auflösungen nutzen. Somache ich das in HOXS64, WinUAE, ZSNES, BSNES, KEGA-FUSION, VICE, MAGIC ENGINE, NEBULA, KAWAKS, MAME undsoweiter undsoweiter.

 

- es ist nunmal eine unumstössliche Tatsache, dass man ein butterweiches Scrolling in PAL-Spielen per Emulator nur hinbekommt, wenn der Monitor entweder 50Hertz oder 100Hertz in Fullscreen darstellen kann. Ist im Netz vielfach nachlesbar.

Deshalb ist eine solche Aussage von "DIRTY HAIRY" wie

 

"... I am 99.9% sure that this guy is chasing butterflies --- the same as audiophiles that swear on golden fuses."

 

leider totaler Quatsch. In allen Emulator oder Retro-Foren ist diese "Hertz zu FPS" Sache bekannt und wird seit Jahren dort immer wieder erwähnt. Weshalb kaufen sich denn viele Emulatoren-Fans Monitor-Modelle wie etwa den BenQ BL912 Flatscreen-Monitor um darauf entweder einen echten Amiga oder am PC Emulatoren laufen zu lassen? Weil bekannt ist, dass dieses Gerät nahezu alle 50Hz-Modi kann und das als Flatscreengerät. Der ist sogar geeignet, wenn man einen Amiga dort anschliesst, einen 15kHz - 50Hertz Modus darstellen zu können. Ebenso ist er super für alle möglichen Emulatoren geeignet wenn er an einem PC steckt. Keine Ruckelei und nahezu perfektes Scrolling bei PAL-Spielen. Früher konnten das nur die alten Röhrengeräte oder man brauchte teuere Hardware die man zwischensteckt

[Thomas Jentzsch]

- was mir jedoch nicht klar ist bei der alten STELLA Version, das ist die Tatsache, dass ich weder in den Emulator-config-Files, noch in einem der STELLA Menüs die Einstellung für den PAL-Fullscreen-Modus finde. Im "stella.ini" File kann der User einen Fullscreenmodus festlegen (in meinem Fall 640x480), jedoch nutzt V3.6.1 diesen dann nur für gestartete NTSC-Roms. Die Frage die ich mir stelle ist, wo habe ich damals diesen 800x600 PAL-Fullscreenmodus festgelegt, oder hat STELLA hier nur einfach die nächst-höhere Standardauflösung zu 640x480 genommen, da ich diese ja für die NTSC-Roms festgelegt hatte? Irgendwo muss ich doch auch die 800x600 festgelegt haben. Die entsprechenden Hertz-Zahlen hatte ich mir dann damals bei der V3.6.1 im Nachhinein im WINDOWS eingestellt, nachdem ich gemerkt hatte, dass der Emulator zwei verschiedene Fullscreen-Auflösungen benutzt, je nachdem ob es sich um ein PAL oder ein NTSC Spiel handelt, welches man startet.

Lade dir doch einfach Stella 3.6.1 herunter und kopiere dann dein ini-File.

 

https://stella.en.uptodown.com/windows/download/27327

 

Was passiert?

[AW127]

Lade dir doch einfach Stella 3.6.1 herunter und kopiere dann dein ini-File.

 

https://stella.en.uptodown.com/windows/download/27327

 

Was passiert?

 

Okay, ich hab das jetzt mal ausprobiert und zwar auf die Art, dass ich bei meiner V3.6.1 auf dem alten PC das bisherige "stella.ini" File gezippt habe, sodaß es von STELLA nicht mehr gefunden werden kann. Das File ist bei mir übrigens unter Windows/Anwendungsdaten/Stella zu finden.

 

Der Emulator startet nun komplett unkonfiguriert in einem Fenstermodus und fragt nach dem Rom-Ordner den man festlegen kann. Nun hab ich mal ein NTSC-Rom gestartet und am Monitor überprüft in welcher Auflösung er es startet. Das ist 640x480. Dann ging ich aus dem Emulator raus und hab mir das neu von STELLA erstellte "stella.ini" File mal angesehen. Dort steht dann hinter "fullres" das Wort "auto". Der Emulator wählt also, solange der User nichts verändert, standardmäßig 640x480 als Fullscreen-Auflösung für NTSC-Spiele aus. Ich hab das so belassen und das File wieder zugemacht.

 

Nun ging ich wieder in den Emulator und startete mal ein PAL-Rom und schaute wieder am Monitor welche Auflösung STELLA hier gewählt hat. Es war 800x600 von Haus aus. Also hat die V3.6.1 von STELLA diese 800x600 Auflösung für PAL-Roms damals von selbst gewählt, wie jetzt auch wieder.

 

Jetzt hab ich mal im "stella.ini" manuell die fullres auf 1024x768 gestellt um zu sehen, was passiert. Wieder STELLA gestartet und ein NTSC-Rom darin. Dieses läuft nun, da wir es ja festgelegt haben, in einer 1024x768 Fullscreen-Auflösung. Danach mal ein PAL-Rom gestartet um zu sehen, ob sich hier was verändert hat. NEIN hat es nicht, läuft nach wie vor unter 800x600.

 

Es scheint also so zu sein bei den alten Versionen wie V3.6.1, dass man die Auflösung unter der PAL-Spiele laufen, gar nicht ändern kann als User. Der Emulator wählt hier immer 800x600 aus. Der User kann nur bei NTSC-Spielen eine Fullscreen-Auflösung einstellen indem er den Wert in`s "stella.ini" File einträgt. Für PAL-Roms kann man die Auflösung anscheinend nicht bestimmen.

 

Das macht aber rein gar nichts, denn 800x600, was der Emulator hier von selbst wählt, war ja vollkommen geeignet. Hier kann nun der User im Windows für seine 800x600 Auflösung einfach 100Hz oder 50Hz einstellen und die Sache passt. Die alte STELLA Version scheint auch automatisch den 16bit-color-Modus zu nehmen, denn ich habe bei mir die 100Hz nur bei "800x600 - 16bit" eingestellt. Meine "800x600 - 32bit" Auflösung läuft mit 120Hz, wie ich gesehen habe. Also nimmt STELLA hier den 16bit Farbmodus.

 

Es gibt übrigens ein gutes Freeware-Tool um diese ganzen Hz-Einstellungen für verschiedene Auflösungen schnell und einfach einstellen zu können und zwar "Hz Tool" von Stefan Berglind. Das Tool scheint bis hin zu Win-XP zu funktionieren, denn auf meinem WIN7-PC kann man es zwar noch starten, aber es hat keinen Einfluss mehr, was man dann dort einstellt. Muss man hier dann unter Windows direkt machen oder nach einem anderen Tool suchen. Bei Hz-Tool war es sehr übersichtlich, es zeigte immer alle darstellbaren Fullscreen-Auflösungen in einer Liste an und direkt dahinter konnte man den jeweiligen Hz-Wert einstellen, den man für die jeweilige Auflösung verwenden will. Man konnte dann diese Liste noch umschalten zwischen 8bit, 16bit und 32bit Farbmodus. Prima Tool war das damals, was ideal mit Röhrenmonitoren zu verwenden war.

 

Wir wissen nun also, dass die alten STELLA Versionen von selbst für PAL-Roms 800x600 als Fullscreenauflösung einstellen. Der Emulator erkennt ja am ROM selbst, ob PAL oder NTSC. PAL60 Spiele, die aus NTSC-Roms erstellt wurden, bei denen nur die Farben angepasst wurden, startet die V3.6.1 dann natürlich wie ein NTSC-Rom, also unter 640x480. Das passt ja auch so, die Games laufen ja auch so schnell wie die NTSC-Roms, der User muss dann halt nur in den PAL60 Roms einmal den Farbmodus umstellen von "automatisch" auf "PAL60", damit auch die Farben wieder passen.

 

Ideal wäre es bei den neuen Versionen von STELLA, wenn der User die Fullscreen-Auflösung auch für PAL-Spiele selbst im "stella.ini" festlegen könnte. Also sowas wie "fullres-ntsc" und "fullres-pal". Dann kann man dort beide Werte bestimmen und sich unter Windows dann die passenden Hz-Werte dafür einstellen.

 

Alternativ könnte man es in den neuen Versionen auch wieder so machen wie in den alten Versionen. Also dass STELLA selbst eine Auflösung für PAL-Spiele festlegt, die der User nicht ändern kann. Man könnte hier wieder 800x600 wählen, besser wäre hier aber 720x576, denn das ist bei neueren Rechnern in Verbindung mit 50Hz-fähigen Flatscreenmonitoren, immer sowas wie die Standardauflösung für PAL-Anwendungen. Bei mir etwa steht "720x576 - 50Hz" als Standardauflösung schon in den Grafikkarteneinstellungen mit drin. "800x600 - 50Hz" beispielsweise aber nicht. Bei "800x600" habe ich von Haus aus nur die Wahl zwischen "60Hz" und "75Hz". Will ich unter 800x600 die 50Hz, dann muss ich diesen Fullscreenmodus erstmal in den Grafikkarteneinstellungen selbst erstellen und den normalen Bildschirm-Modi hinzufügen. Bei dem Rechner eines Freundes von mir, ist es genau das gleiche.

 

Da "720x576", wenn man einen 50Hz-fähigen Monitor hat, aber sowohl als "50Hz", "60Hz" und "75Hz" standardmäßig auf den meisten PC`s schon als Auflösung ausgewählt werden kann, würde ich den Vorschlag machen, die Auflösung "720x576" als STELLA`s Fullscreenauflösung für PAL-Spiele festzulegen. Hat ein User keinen 50Hz-fähigen Monitor, dann wird STELLA zwar ebenfalls "720x576" nutzen, aber halt dann mit einer anderen Hz-Zahl, wie etwa "60Hz" oder "75Hz".

 

Am besten wäre aber natürlich die Möglichkeit, wenn der User auch für PAL-Spiele eine Auflösung manuell im "stella.ini" File eintragen könnte, die STELLA dann bei PAL-Roms nutzt. 720x576 sollte dann aber unter den wählbaren Auflösungen unbedingt mit dabei sein.

 

WOW, soviel Text. Ich will nur dabei mithelfen diese Option wieder zurückzubringen. Jetzt reichts aber erstmal wieder von mir.

 

Sorry english-speaking people, but i can`t explain this Hz-testing-thing in another language than my own. To difficult to explain what i mean then. Anyway, when this thing can be "fixed" from the STELLA-programmers, all people will profit.

Edited January 29, 2018 by AW127

[AW127]

One idea comes to my mind here, which also could be integrated in a new STELLA version. Think it would be really senseful.

 

There exist alot of PAL60 roms in the meanwhile, which was made by people from this forum here over the last years. When i count them together, i have here around 240 PAL60-roms. The most PAL60 roms was made out of the NTSC-roms and then changing the colors to fit to the PAL-palette. Also some PAL60 roms exist, which was made out of the normal PAL-roms, by changing the screen to a bigger size and sometimes also speeding them up to run in the same speed than the NTSC-version, i guess?

 

Those PAL60-roms made out of NTSC-roms, STELLA starts, of course, in NTSC fullscreen-mode with NTSC-colors, because STELLA still think, it is a NTSC-rom. The user here must, either manually change to "PAL" display in the game-option of any of those PAL60-roms, or he must make all the entrys in the stella-pro file by hand for all those roms. This can be a little bit nervy for over 240 files, when you must do this individual for every single PAL60-file. Same problem for those PAL60-roms, which was made out of normal PAL-roms. Here STELLA thinks, it`s a normal PAL-rom and starts it in PAL50 fullscreenmode and it runs to slow then. This is normal, cause these PAL60 changes are all hacks and not standard-roms anymore, so STELLA don`t know by it`s own, how to deal with those roms. But STELLA can identify a rom by it`s given name.

 

And therefore i have an idea for a new function. When a user integrate a new PAL60 rom to his collection and before doing this, adds the letters (PAL60) to the name of this rom, then STELLA should use "PAL60" display-mode automatically in the game-options for this game. So, STELLA should identify to use PAL60-display by the name of the rom and the added letters (PAL60).

 

I suppose, all people who use PAL60 roms in the moment, have added (PAL60) or something similar to the name anyway, to know what kind of rom it is and when i put together all those 202 PAL60-roms in the zip-File (in PAL60-thread), then i also added (PAL60) to the names of all those roms.

 

Think this would be a function, that really makes sense and. It can save herself the trouble to make it manually for PAL60 roms and it would have no influence at all, to normal PAL or NTSC roms as long as (PAL60) will not be in their name. But (PAL60) will never be in the name of a normal PAL or NTSC rom, cause it would make no sense at all to have this in the name for those roms.

 

Now maybe some people will ask themselves "why at all, using a PAL60 rom in STELLA, when the emulator can change the colorpalette anyway and can play NTSC and PAL roms"? But i think, in times when many PAL users have a Harmony and a big PAL-rom-compilation on their SD-Card (which includes also alot PAL60-roms), those people wants to use the same compilation in STELLA too (at least this is the case for me and all my friends). And then it can be disturbing, when you klick through the roms and then their are alot of roms, which STELLA starts in wrong colors. Wouldn`t it be nice,when STELLA starts ALL roms in correct colors automatically, also the PAL60 ones? I think "yes"!

 

What you STELLA programers think about this feature for PAL60 roms? Integrable?

 

 

 

By the way - 1,5 years ago i asked, if STELLA has an option, to change something in the game-options for a group of roms all at once. It was exactly because of that PAL60-display-thing with all 202 PAL60-roms at that time. SPICEWARE then told me, that this is not possible in the emulator. He then told me, how to do this with a script and then copying the text-output manually into the stella.pro file. Look here:

 

http://atariage.com/forums/topic/253907-change-options-of-more-than-one-game-rom-at-once-in-stella/?p=3539909

 

I did this and that worked and solved the whole thing. Without that, i needed to change display-options for every single PAL60-rom manually in STELLA. Thanks to SPICEWARE. Later i copied all the text over to the stella.pro file of the new STELLA version on the newer PC to have it there too. But i think, the script-solution is a little bit difficult to do and if all STELLA users know, how to work with such a script or even to write such a script, i also don`t know. I didn`t knew, how to write that script at that time, for example. Therefore my suggestion with the identification of PAL60-hacks by the name. Think it would be a good solution for easy dealing with PAL60 roms inside the emulator. It only needs to be explained in the manual then, that new users know, what to add exactly to the name of such a rom.

Edited February 1, 2018 by AW127

[Thomas Jentzsch]

Please open one issue for each suggestion or missing feature. We can then come back to them when we find the time.

[AW127]

Have done it. Yes, it`s better to make a new thread for this.