80s_Atari_Guy Posted May 31, 2018 Share Posted May 31, 2018 Since the 1200XL came first, they couldn't take anything from the 800XL design wise It doesn't matter which came first, it's 2018 and irrelevant to the discussion. I was merely pointing out what it looked like to me, not the designers. And drop the "tude" man. I'm polite and respectful and I expect the same. If you have a problem with my post take it to the mods. You are the only one picking apart my posts, which are merely my own opinion and will stay my opinion. If you don't like my opinion then ignore me. Actually, just ignore me, And I will ignore you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monzamess Posted May 31, 2018 Share Posted May 31, 2018 IBM PCjr... Cough,cough... Technical limitations aside, the PCjr is solidly well-built. The smaller power supply boards can struggle with upgrades and the keyboards all suck, but they suck by design and not due to aging. It's a very reliable but crippled computer. Still one of my favorites, if only out of sheer nostalgia. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ranger03 Posted July 16, 2018 Share Posted July 16, 2018 I contest the Apple IIe post. anyway, i think the computer that has aged worse graphics and compatibility wise is the Commodore Vic-20. The keyboard is slow, the BASIC is crap, the colors are rudimentary. my opinion Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ranger03 Posted July 16, 2018 Share Posted July 16, 2018 Best has to go to Windows 98. Still holds up years later. besides, i prefer it to 10 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flojomojo Posted July 16, 2018 Share Posted July 16, 2018 I like how you can virtualize just about any old computer and make its soul live forever in a new body! 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pacman000 Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 That sounds like some mad scientist stuff there... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keatah Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 I like how you can virtualize just about any old computer and make its soul live forever in a new body! Yes. And the developers that make these virtualizations are the priests and popes that help make it possible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
80s_Atari_Guy Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 Virtualization, has no soul. No memories, no experiences, no soul. Created in a lab, it looks like the real thing, it talks like the real thing. But it will never be the real thing. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flojomojo Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 Virtualization, has no soul. No memories, no experiences, no soul. Created in a lab, it looks like the real thing, it talks like the real thing. But it will never be the real thing. People like different things. I was mostly kidding, but if there's a soul to these things, for me, it's in software and logic, not hardware. Brittle beige plastic with crude ICs inside? Not for me. I think that a virtualized computer is better than the real thing in every way except for museum preservation of a particular object. There's no point in us arguing, we have different perspectives that are never going to be persuaded in the other direction. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pacman000 Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 If I understand it correctly, the Soul is supposed to be the part of life which can be separated from the body, so software as a computer's soul makes sense. I'd still miss the computer's hardware tho. It's like owning a film projector instead of just DVDs. A lot of work went into the machine itself, & I do appreciate that work. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keatah Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 There's no point in us arguing, we have different perspectives that are never going to be persuaded in the other direction. Only until I work them over. Then they'll change for sure! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ranger03 Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 Only until I work them over. Then they'll change for sure! hehehe 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AMenard Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 Only until I work them over. Then they'll change for sure! never in my case. Been there, done that. I'll use the real stuff as long as I'm able to. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
youxia Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 I mostly use the "virtualization" for practical reasons, but also keep a real retro machine or two going whenever possible. Like pacman000 said, there's something about real hardware I do appreciate greatly. I have respect for it and its resilience and I'm always amazed something still works after all these years in this crazy, volatile world. Old design is uber cute, some things are still impossible to emulate and so on. As kids say these days "because reasons". One of the most curious things I find about this forum is this black & white divide conflict that seems to be going on, between the "real"/"soulless" camps with some true fire & brimstone proselytizing from both sides. But, for why? Why does this have to be such a binary choice? Just use both things, both have perfectly valid reasons going for them. Or, use one, but let others stick with their choice. This really is no "we're right" kinda issue. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
80s_Atari_Guy Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 never in my case. Been there, done that. I'll use the real stuff as long as I'm able to. Exactly. The day I move from real hardware to emulation is the day I've lost my mind. Emulation has it's place. MAME, for me, is as close as I'll ever get to owning a real arcade. Emulation of systems that are rare or expensive, Jupiter Ace, Enterprise 128k, Neo Geo AVS, this is where I use emulation - but only because I can't afford the real thing. I believe emulation has heart and soul, put into it, from the programmer. But to say it has a soul is just silly. It hasn't survived many different eras, 80s, 90s, 00s. It hasn't seen different presidents, governments. It hasn't seen the changes in culture, and the progress we've seen towards racism, and people of different religions. It hasn't moved home with you, or enjoyed a developing family around it. All these are memories, experiences, and the soul of that machine that was designed and put together by humans. My A8 XL, has seen 5 different homes. 4 different Governments, many different players/users. When you turn off your emulation box, it becomes just a box. It's no longer the machine it was mimicking, it's now just a boring corporate box with a meaningless badge on it. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flojomojo Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 owning a film projector And there's the difference, that sounds like hell on earth. Solid state for me, please! Looking at these reel-to-reel tapes from the 80s marked "confidential" that won't fit into my degausser, wondering what I'll do with them ... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keatah Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 The heart and soul of an emulation machine lies within the patterns of information hosted by a data storage device and microprocessor. Emulation is transcendental. It not only rises above "the boring corporate box with a meaningless badge", it adds soul and personality to that box. It takes us back to the past and into the future equally well. We not only see how the games were played, how the machines operated, we see how much better they can be, too. The essence emulation continues to mysteriously and wondrously maintain an ineffable quality about it that takes years of study to fully comprehend. A vintage machine is but a shell (prone to aging, failures, loss, damage, and more) upon which flights of fancy are played out on in fitful pursuits of nostalgia for days gone by. In contrast, emulation is elegant and refined, always working at its best. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pacman000 Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 I said owning a film projector; not using. Actually I've read a poorly maintained projector can scratch your film, so it's best not to use them. They do make good strobe lights tho. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flojomojo Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 Exactly. The day I move from real hardware to emulation is the day I've lost my mind. Emulation has it's place. MAME, for me, is as close as I'll ever get to owning a real arcade. Emulation of systems that are rare or expensive, Jupiter Ace, Enterprise 128k, Neo Geo AVS, this is where I use emulation - but only because I can't afford the real thing. I believe emulation has heart and soul, put into it, from the programmer. But to say it has a soul is just silly. It hasn't survived many different eras, 80s, 90s, 00s. It hasn't seen different presidents, governments. It hasn't seen the changes in culture, and the progress we've seen towards racism, and people of different religions. It hasn't moved home with you, or enjoyed a developing family around it. All these are memories, experiences, and the soul of that machine that was designed and put together by humans. My A8 XL, has seen 5 different homes. 4 different Governments, many different players/users. When you turn off your emulation box, it becomes just a box. It's no longer the machine it was mimicking, it's now just a boring corporate box with a meaningless badge on it. The heart and soul of an emulation machine lies within the patterns of information hosted by a data storage device and microprocessor. Emulation is transcendental. It not only rises above "the boring corporate box with a meaningless badge", it adds soul and personality to that box. It takes us back to the past and into the future equally well. We not only see how the games were played, how the machines operated, we see how much better they can be, too. The essence emulation continues to mysteriously and wondrously maintain an ineffable quality about it that takes years of study to fully comprehend. A vintage machine is but a shell (prone to aging, failures, loss, damage, and more) upon which flights of fancy are played out on in fitful pursuits of nostalgia for days gone by. In contrast, emulation is elegant and refined, always working at its best. Would you guys mind if I stole some of your text to enter a contest? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
80s_Atari_Guy Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 Failure, loss, damage, replacement, repair. They're all part of life, part of living. I look at my arthritis and often dream of a cure, but it's here, I have it and it's part of my life. It's my memories, spent years of installing PC equipment, bending down to fit into tight spaces to fit ethernet cabling, or a tower case. Crawling into tight spaces to change cables, or to find breaks. Sure, your emulation looks great on the Pi, via HDMI to that nice 60" 4K TV. But it's lifeless. It's not how the original pixel artists imagined. You can take a Picasso, digitise it and clean it up, clean all the years of muck and dirt and print out a nice high-definition print. But it's no longer a Picasso, it's a copy that has lost it's heart and soul. You could argue that the new print looks better, but does it ? If it does, then why is it worth 5 bucks ? While the original is worth 5 Million bucks. Now, everyone has that nice high definition copy on their wall. But there will only ever be the one, the original. I see the real deal as this. https://halifaxbloggers.ca/flawintheiris/wp-content/uploads/sites/7/2013/02/mad-max-interceptor-920-1.jpg Sure, it's going to break down, guzzles gas like no other, and has no modern comforts. No electric windows, no air con, no power steering, no CD player, no Sat nav. But it's unique. There will never be another made in the future. Driving it, you are driving a beast. Your senses are at their maximum, you feel everything through the steering wheel. The feedback from the car gives car enthusiasts a massive smile. Emulation is this. https://media.wired.com/photos/59325d1ca3126458449944dd/master/pass/bmwi8-ft.jpg Sure, it looks "Modern". Has all the modern luxuries, is incredibly high tech. Electric windows, power steering, central locking, alarm, digital dashboard. It's environmentally friendly. But it's dull. I have most of these things in my car. Most cars today have many of these features. It's fast, with amazing acceleration. But driving it, will it "Feel" like you're in control of something, or will it feel like you are along for the ride, while the computers do everything. I've drove a battery car, nothing like the I8, but I can say the nice quiet drive soon wears off fast. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AMenard Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 I like my computers and enjoy playing with them, tweaking them, mod them to hell, listening to the sound they make and the feel of their keyboard. An emulator is just a piece of software, not something tangible. I don't feel anything when I use them. Same thing as making music using a real instrument compared to a virtual one. Both can make beautiful sounds, but it's just not the same experience. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimakis Posted August 10, 2018 Share Posted August 10, 2018 I think it depends what gives you enjoyment from. If you just want to play games and get enjoyment out of the games, then fine do emulation. But if you are excited about holding and using an "artifact" that has survived against time, then you really need the originals. With every year that passes, hardware fails, so finding a working example of something becomes harder and therefore more impressive. Conversely, every year, modern hardware advances, and emulation becomes easier and easier. Therefore, as time goes on, using original hardware becomes more and more impressive to me, whereas emulation becomes less and less impressive. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiwilove Posted September 1, 2018 Share Posted September 1, 2018 Emulation has it's place - as long as there are people who make use of it - to enjoy running old and new software made for the original hardware. How else can you enjoy running coin-op games in the home without great expense involved? And for development purposes - emulation becomes essential. So that final testing is done on the original hardware - as a final check. There are those who may look down upon using PC laptops for development purposes - but if it saves time and is far easier to do - why not use it? As long as it runs on the original old hardware - I think anything is fair game to use with it. And that means using flash carts using bank switching - as long as it runs off stock original machines with the standard memory used back then... I don't like to see games made - as if - back in the day. What I like to see - are games that look like they exploit the potential that is in that particular hardware - that look surprisingly modern - that is - current - up to date - that if the hardware can do lots of animation - then why not do it? That is probably the easier way to update old classics into a more modern look? Harvey 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ranger03 Posted September 9, 2018 Share Posted September 9, 2018 My mother still has windows 98 and XP. amazing to be honest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JaguarVision Posted September 11, 2018 Share Posted September 11, 2018 I hate to say it-but probably this..... Definitely. I went through tons of Speccys over the years. I still have my game collections but not sure if I'll be getting any new hardware anytime soon. Ebay is sketchy as all hell. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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