Billy Mitchell TG Banned, Scores Removed

[negative1]

1 hour ago, Greg2600 said:

I agree, the 80's arcade games usually don't make for great competitive tournaments, unless you artificially construct them to score in time runs or whatever.  Record runs take, in some cases, 24+ hours, nobody wants to watch that.  You are correct, as most classic arcades and small conventions prefer to have tournaments involving high scores within a reasonably short time limit, to make a competition of it.  I personally loathe fighting games, and watching a tournament for them, like those for sports games, is a painful watch for me.  But many local game stores do them, and I support their efforts.  They are certainly the most popular among the target age group.

 

The "old" Mitchell era records from the old TG scoreboard were in reality followed by next to nobody.  Sure there is a sub culture and whatnot but it's tiny, so so tiny.  Chasing Ghosts was a great film, but I felt King of Kong was dumb yet it was a big hit and literally brought widespread attention to high scores overnight.  Nobody cared before that.  Billy Mitchell was basically unknown before that movie.  I don't think the records were ever really glorified beyond the faint marketing of Walter Day, who like the Richie Knucklez, Joel West, Billy Mitchell, Steve Wiebe, etc. only did so to get a bit of notoriety.  Maybe they were not fully truthful, but that's Americana.  If you go back to the 18th and early 19th centuries, that was what America was, built often on "legends" in popular culture which usually bent the truth.  Look at Todd Rogers, who by most accounts, is someone that classic game fans enjoyed to have around.  He is friendly, and whether his scores/records were entirely accurate, all who knew him 40 years ago as now must admit the guy could play those games better than nearly anyone they met.  Sadly, Todd has been "canceled" and vilified by the cancel culturalists on-line, many of whom do not show up to classic game expos. 

 

Again, I just find what the "truth seekers" have done to be hypocritical and flat out detrimental to classic gaming.  No good has come of it whatsoever.  Congrats to them. 

i could care less about old historical scores.

 

if you can prove you didn't cheat in person, or on video, than do so.

 

thats why the current method of transparency is way better.

 

i do chase high scores, but not for world records (ok, maybe there is one or two out there- highest pac-man score [on xbox], and going

for 1,000,000 on namco ms pac-man).

 

but i tend to put up videos either showing the end of my scoring run, or excerpts of the whole game on youtube.

 

even then, people think i'm still putting up fake scores. but anyways, i dont care, as i do it as a challenge to myself,

and not necessarily to beat other peoples scores.

 

i do think that scoreboard integrity is useful for people that do want to get 'world' records.

 

we all know that guiness can be bought off, so they've lost all credibility anyways.

 

at least twin galaxies stands for something.

 

later

-1

[Greg2600]

5 hours ago, negative1 said:

i could care less about old historical scores.

 

if you can prove you didn't cheat in person, or on video, than do so.

 

thats why the current method of transparency is way better.

 

i do chase high scores, but not for world records (ok, maybe there is one or two out there- highest pac-man score [on xbox], and going

for 1,000,000 on namco ms pac-man).

 

but i tend to put up videos either showing the end of my scoring run, or excerpts of the whole game on youtube.

 

even then, people think i'm still putting up fake scores. but anyways, i dont care, as i do it as a challenge to myself,

and not necessarily to beat other peoples scores.

 

i do think that scoreboard integrity is useful for people that do want to get 'world' records.

 

we all know that guiness can be bought off, so they've lost all credibility anyways.

 

at least twin galaxies stands for something.

 

later

-1

Yes I agree what is being done now is valid, for this point in time.  Wouldn't have worked 20, 30, 40 years ago.  As I said, I felt the old scores should have been "retired" in some fashion, fine, despite Mitchell bitching about it.  My consternation remains that many of these people, like for instance Todd Rogers, were treated with the same vitriol that one should a sexual predator, and vehemently cancelled as though they were Roman Polanski.  The lengths they went to disprove Todd's Barnstorming was really a level of psychosis.  It was 40 years ago, who cares now?  Get a life.  Many people in the classic hobby like Todd, they enjoyed having him at their conventions, he was great to collectors and fans.  As for Mitchell at this point, he's earned most of the anger with him.  I think he should have simply laughed at the new Twin Galaxies and done a Trump, and continued to market himself in the same way as if nothing happened.  The lawsuits were a poor way to go. 

[Tempest]

13 hours ago, Greg2600 said:

Yes I agree what is being done now is valid, for this point in time.  Wouldn't have worked 20, 30, 40 years ago.  As I said, I felt the old scores should have been "retired" in some fashion, fine, despite Mitchell bitching about it.  My consternation remains that many of these people, like for instance Todd Rogers, were treated with the same vitriol that one should a sexual predator, and vehemently cancelled as though they were Roman Polanski.  The lengths they went to disprove Todd's Barnstorming was really a level of psychosis.  It was 40 years ago, who cares now?  Get a life.  Many people in the classic hobby like Todd, they enjoyed having him at their conventions, he was great to collectors and fans.  

It's important to get the record disproven and taken down so the person who actually has the world record is recognized.  The point is that not only he didn't get the top score, but he cheated the actual world record holder out of his/her rightful place.  That's not right.

 

So your defense of Todd is that he's fun to be around so who cares if he faked all those records?  Sorry, he's earned the reputation of being a cheater fair and square and now he's stuck with it.  Has he ever admitted to faking some of his old scores and apologized for it?  That would go a long way in helping his reputation.  I'm sure many of his score are legitimate (he really is talented from what I've read), but much like with Billy's scores, they're all tainted now.  Who knows which are legit and which are lies?

[Greg2600]

On 4/17/2022 at 8:56 PM, Tempest said:

It's important to get the record disproven and taken down so the person who actually has the world record is recognized.  The point is that not only he didn't get the top score, but he cheated the actual world record holder out of his/her rightful place.  That's not right.

 

So your defense of Todd is that he's fun to be around so who cares if he faked all those records?  Sorry, he's earned the reputation of being a cheater fair and square and now he's stuck with it.  Has he ever admitted to faking some of his old scores and apologized for it?  That would go a long way in helping his reputation.  I'm sure many of his score are legitimate (he really is talented from what I've read), but much like with Billy's scores, they're all tainted now.  Who knows which are legit and which are lies?

Which was exactly my point in "retiring" the old scores, and beginning anew.  They discredited Todd and Billy and idk who else, when the vast majority of scores from 1982-200X that was on TG is largely unverifiable.  Had they new owners simply said, we're starting something new, and if such and such a record doesn't have proper documentation, it's ignored, many would have griped but it would have been fair.  Most entries going back to the 80's just list "Verification Method: Referee" zero details on where those were, who the referee was, nothing.  They're totally unverifiable today.  How can you call that a "record book?"  It's a scoreboard full of tons of phony scores but those guys in particular suffered, because they were the biggest names that the dorks spent all that time to bring down. 

[+batari]

3 hours ago, Greg2600 said:

 It's a scoreboard full of tons of phony scores but those guys in particular suffered, because they were the biggest names that the dorks spent all that time to bring down. 

If someone loves bicycling, for instance, it should surprise nobody to hear them being very passionate about wanting to bring down Lance Armstrong for cheating, and it should surprise nobody to have a bunch of people very upset about it.

 

So what if Lance Armstrong not only cheated, but was involved in a conspiracy to referee races to help other cyclists cheat? And then sued various cycling organizations for calling him a cheater? Wouldn't that make things so much worse?

 

Classic games is what we care about here, and these guys are the Lance Armstrongs of the hobby, and those who got where they are by cheating simply do not deserve the recognition, the fame, the money from public appearances. So I don't get why it's so objectionable that people wanted to bring them down.

 

 

[Cynicaster]

Although not always explicitly stated, there seems to be a common undertone in these discussions along the lines of "who cares?  It's just an old video game - get a life."  Yeah, that's definitely all it is.  But for better or for worse, small communities of people try really hard to achieve things on these old games and when the recognition for those achievements is misallocated to liars and cheaters, then that's not cool.  Doesn't matter if very few people care about the achievement or if the cheater is fun to be around.

 

In the internet age there definitely seems to be a palpable enthusiasm for ruthlessly piling onto people who are perceived as some kind of wrongdoer.  Todd Rogers is a great example - with the ludicrous amounts of time and energy that went into taking him to task on his purported world records.  I certainly wouldn't have spent any time or energy analyzing Dragster, but hey, if there is a way to objectively prove something and somebody wants to do it, go for it.  

 

As for the old-school TG, yeah, seems like it was a small thing in the 80s, then went basically dormant for many years, and was revived by the publicity from King of Kong, combined with the world-shrinking powers of the internet. The lingering influence of KoK probably plays a part in Donkey Kong getting so much attention, but love it or hate it, it really is well-suited to this sort of competition.  It has great name recognition, it can't be beaten with patterns or memorization, it has lots of tricks and techniques, it has variety via 4 different screens, and importantly, the killscreen keeps a lid on how long a WR run takes (just a few hours rather than days).  Of the thousands of classic arcade games out there, not that many of them tick so many boxes.  

 

I agree that fighting games are a great platform for competitive gaming, I just wish I could make myself enjoy them more.  I have been playing some SF2 lately on my MAME cabinet and having a lot of fun but it's tough to get too into these types of games when you're stuck playing against computer opponents 100% of the time.  

 

  

 

 

[+batari]

4 hours ago, Cynicaster said:

In the internet age there definitely seems to be a palpable enthusiasm for ruthlessly piling onto people who are perceived as some kind of wrongdoer.  Todd Rogers is a great example - with the ludicrous amounts of time and energy that went into taking him to task on his purported world records.  I certainly wouldn't have spent any time or energy analyzing Dragster, but hey, if there is a way to objectively prove something and somebody wants to do it, go for it. 

Don't forget that Rogers' dragster record actually won a second world-record for the longest-held video game record ever. 35 years for a video game record is quite amazing, such that it garnered international recognition and made it into mainstream press. It should not be surprising in the least that some might have been skeptical at exactly why the record was seemingly impossible. When the news came out of the analysis, it made many mainstream outlets. Obviously people care about this even outside of our circles here.

[Turbo-Torch]

On 4/19/2022 at 8:37 AM, Cynicaster said:

Although not always explicitly stated, there seems to be a common undertone in these discussions along the lines of "who cares?  It's just an old video game - get a life."  Yeah, that's definitely all it is.  But for better or for worse, small communities of people try really hard to achieve things on these old games and when the recognition for those achievements is misallocated to liars and cheaters, then that's not cool.  Doesn't matter if very few people care about the achievement or if the cheater is fun to be around.

 

So you care about TG and cheating through emulation, right?

 

And yet, several years ago when I mentioned TG not allowing MAME, you came back with this reply to me...

 

Quote

As for Twin Galaxies, I think they did track MAME scores, but the more important question there is probably "Who cares about Twin Galaxies anymore?"

 

So which is it?

[Slikatel]

On 4/17/2022 at 12:05 PM, Greg2600 said:

Sadly, Todd has been "canceled" and vilified by the cancel culturalists on-line, many of whom do not show up to classic game expos. 

 

Again, I just find what the "truth seekers" have done to be hypocritical and flat out detrimental to classic gaming.  No good has come of it whatsoever.  Congrats to them. 

I disagree. While we all make mistakes, there is a time to grow up and come clean.

 

When people younger than you look up to you, and refuse to be truthful, well, this is what happens.

[Slikatel]

On 4/19/2022 at 8:37 AM, Cynicaster said:

I agree that fighting games are a great platform for competitive gaming, I just wish I could make myself enjoy them more.  I have been playing some SF2 lately on my MAME cabinet and having a lot of fun but it's tough to get too into these types of games when you're stuck playing against computer opponents 100% of the time. 

you really need a few friends who know how to play to learn all the matchups. To learn how to play against every character. Once you start to enter tournaments, you probably won't win 1st place, but, hopefully will learn a lot of new techniques. Way more than playing the computer or even your local group of friends.

 

Traveling to other cities, meeting other players, spending a few days there to party or site see, was probably the most fun I ever had in my life.

[Cynicaster]

10 hours ago, Turbo-Torch said:

 

So you care about TG and cheating through emulation, right?

 

And yet, several years ago when I mentioned TG not allowing MAME, you came back with this reply to me...

 

 

So which is it?

I’m sorry but I don’t remember this conversation from “several years ago” (why do you?) so it’s hard to meaningfully answer your question.  

 

I will say this: I don’t see what my personal take on TG’s relevance or their mame policy has to do with commenting on the general morality of a guy who tried to undermine the achievements of others by submitting mame-generated scores while claiming they were done on original hardware and is now trying to sue and bully people and organizations to silence them.  

[Turbo-Torch]

1 hour ago, Cynicaster said:

I’m sorry but I don’t remember this conversation from “several years ago” (why do you?) so it’s hard to meaningfully answer your question.  

 

Never mind why I remember it.  I just find it funny how you decided to come at me with a smart ass answer (when I had just joined AA) while I was discussing originality of my arcade games.

 

You were literally one of those guys using the "who cares" line in 2015, when I brought up TG and MAME.  These days, defending TG and the possibility of cheating while using MAME seems to be a passion of yours.

 

 

[Cynicaster]

15 minutes ago, Turbo-Torch said:

 

Never mind why I remember it.  I just find it funny how you decided to come at me with a smart ass answer (when I had just joined AA) while I was discussing originality of my arcade games.

 

You were literally one of those guys using the "who cares" line in 2015, when I brought up TG and MAME.  These days, defending TG and the possibility of cheating while using MAME seems to be a passion of yours.

 

 

 

So “defending” TG is a passion of mine, is it?  Lol

 

Take a deep breath, step away from the keyboard, and contemplate the possibility that if this is the type of “smart ass answer” that weighs on you for 7 years, maybe the internet isn’t for you.  

 

 

[Turbo-Torch]

14 minutes ago, Cynicaster said:

 

So “defending” TG is a passion of mine, is it?  Lol

 

Take a deep breath, step away from the keyboard, and contemplate the possibility that if this is the type of “smart ass answer” that weighs on you for 7 years, maybe the internet isn’t for you.  

 

 

 

For someone who didn't care, you have enough responses in this topic alone to write a small book. 

 

And personally, calling out douchebags who contradict themselves is a hobby of mine...especially when they use the EXACT same wording.  So just say Who Cares and move on. 

[Cynicaster]

11 minutes ago, Turbo-Torch said:

 

For someone who didn't care, you have enough responses in this topic alone to write a small book. 

 

And personally, calling out douchebags who contradict themselves is a hobby of mine...especially when they use the EXACT same wording.  So just say Who Cares and move on. 

I can hardly believe I’m having this conversation…

 

Revising or updating one’s thoughts on things over the course of years is hardly a crime, especially when there is lots of new information to be considered.  
 

Regarding the topics at hand, Billy Mitchell’s antics hadn’t yet been exposed 7 years ago when I first started living in your head rent-free. 
 

Best of luck with your “hobby.”  It strikes me as rather thin-skinned (and with the time scale involved here, more than a tad creepy) but I suppose there are much worse things you could be doing with the chip on your shoulder.  
 

[Turbo-Torch]

5 minutes ago, Cynicaster said:

I can hardly believe I’m having this conversation…

 

Who cares?  Hahaha 

[+frankodragon]

Remember that "Winners Don't Use Drugs" screen arcades had during attract mode?  How about one that targets cheaters?

 

 

[Tempest]

Both of you knock it off. 

[Tempest]

2 hours ago, frankodragon said:

Remember that "Winners Don't Use Drugs" screen arcades had during attract mode?  How about one that targets cheaters?

 

 

Unfortunately they do win.  That's why they cheat.

[Slikatel]

On 4/25/2022 at 6:46 AM, Tempest said:

Unfortunately they do win.  That's why they cheat.

I totally get what you mean but they "win" in name only, in reality winning comes with a sense of accomplishment and self confidence boost. (Maybe even an a little bit of an adrenaline rush) They probably don't experience any that.

 

What they are really doing is stealing that from the 2nd place person. They actually "cheated" themselves of the real feeling of accomplishment.

Damn, I'm old, haha. I sound like my Grade school teachers.

Edited April 27, 2022 by Slikatel

[Tempest]

5 hours ago, Slikatel said:

I totally get what you mean but they "win" in name only, in reality winning comes with a sense of accomplishment and self confidence boost. (Maybe even an a little bit of an adrenaline rush) They probably don't experience any that.

I don't know.  I wonder if they don't convince themselves that cheating is ok because 'if they don't someone else will'.  I've known people like that and in their minds they legitimately won even though they cheated.  Never underestimate the power of self delusion.

[negative1]

On 4/27/2022 at 7:28 AM, Tempest said:

I don't know.  I wonder if they don't convince themselves that cheating is ok because 'if they don't someone else will'.  I've known people like that and in their minds they legitimately won even though they cheated.  Never underestimate the power of self delusion.

i find that to be a little strange.

 

since only a few people have ever been accused or caught cheating.

 

it really doesn't mean a lot to anyone else, except for the people trying to make money from it.

 

and the other thing, is a lot of those scores have been beaten legitimately many times over, so 

was it really worth it?

 

later

-1

[Tempest]

36 minutes ago, negative1 said:

it really doesn't mean a lot to anyone else, except for the people trying to make money from it.

Some people just have to win, even if there is no prize or fame.  Person pride run amok I suppose.

[negative1]

if you have a half day, and plenty of time to read,

here is an update : ( all these comments and quotes are other peoples summaries, and not my own.)

 

https://perfectpacman.com/2022/05/01/may-day-update/

 

go to the bottom for the highlights.

 

main points:

- The lead attorney on Billy's case, James Gibbons, has left the law firm representing Billy, and presumably the case.
- Walter Day was served with documents and notice of the Twin Galaxies counter-suit as a new cross-defendant on October 29th at the Schaumburg Convention Center during what would appear to have been the Pinball Expo 2021 and/or International Video Game Hall of Fame Presentation at that venue that weekend.
- The law firm representing Billy in the case asked the court for $226,014.96 for handling TG's anti-Slapp motion which was denied.  The court approved only $598.96 of that $226,014.96 amount, which was for actual costs (e.g. court filing fees).
- The trial date has been set for March 24th, 2023.

 

 

"The trial date has been set for March 24 of next year. (Wait, are they really starting a trial on a Friday?) However, don’t write that in stone just yet, as there’s still much to happen before then, and it would not be a surprise for that date to keep getting pushed out until both sides have completed their preparations."

 

later

-1

 

Edited May 4, 2022 by negative1

[negative1]

here's a new 48 page independent analysis of billy mitchell cheating and evidence:

 

https://perfectpacman.com/2022/09/06/new-technical-analysis/

This independent analysis represents months of work by Fokkens and others to assess the evidence published by Jeremy Young in February 2018, demonstrating that Mitchell’s historical Donkey Kong score submission tapes were an exact match for the emulator MAME, and were not congruent with actual direct feed recordings from an original, unmodified Donkey Kong arcade machine. (Recall that, while MAME is a legal platform in high score competition, submission standards are different. Thus, MAME scores which are passed off as coming from original arcade are disqualified.)

 

 

In this new analysis, Fokkens expertly takes the existing evidence a step further, by dissecting exactly why these different transition screens appear the way they do on both the arcade and MAME platforms. This includes a line-by-line look at the graphics code within the original Donkey Kong ROM program, as well as programming instructions found in the MAME source code.

 

Fokkens’ analysis is reposted below, however the original document can be downloaded here: https://docs.google.com/document/d/13HRyhZNHDvWNHfVvDr432F4foWiB56Eo

The document also comes with six expert verification statements from the following qualified community members:

John Kowalski (hardware engineer, game developer)
Barry Rodewald (MAME developer)
Jeremy Young (Donkey Kong Forum moderator and DK killscreener)
David Race (Pac-Man world record holder, investigative researcher)
Wes Copeland (Former Donkey Kong world record holder)
Carlos Pineiro (Arcade technical expert, former tech for Billy Mitchell)
This independent analysis is likely to play a significant factor in the ongoing legal battle between Mitchell and Twin Galaxies. While Mitchell continues to rely on witness statements from his friends (such as Todd Rogers), the technical evidence proving Mitchell’s tapes could not have been produced as he has always claimed keeps piling up. Mitchell’s defamation lawsuit against TG, and TG’s counter-suit against Mitchell and Walter Day for fraud, are both headed to a trial tentatively scheduled for March of next year. You can keep up on all the latest on this case right here at perfectpacman.com.

 

later

-1

Edited September 11, 2022 by negative1