AVGCART

[flashjazzcat]

2 minutes ago, AirKon said:

I have a curious thing, when I launch side2 emulation, I see the directories but I don't see the files (cat/atr ...).
Did I miss something ?

ATR files will only show up when U1MB is present and the PBI HDD is enabled. CAR files will never show up in the SIDE loader since it has no way of mounting them on the AVG cart in SIDE emulation mode (the SIDE3 loader is the only variant of the 'SIDE Loader' which is able to mount cartridge ROM images).

[AirKon]

5 minutes ago, Mr Robot said:

side 2 cant launch CAR files so it hides them

side 2 cant launch ATR files unless you have a U1MB so it hides them

side 2 cant launch CAS files so it hides them

you should see XEX files though

 

ha well yes
that explains everything.
Sorry, I'm becoming an old man.
Thanks / Merci  

[Panther]

Isn't the Side3 also capable of loading (many) ATR images without the U1MB?  Sounds like that's what he needs!

 

[Mr Robot]

11 hours ago, Panther said:

Isn't the Side3 also capable of loading (many) ATR images without the U1MB?  Sounds like that's what he needs!

 

AVGCART with SIO cable is compatible with more ATR's than SIDE3. 

[Peri Noid]

11 hours ago, Panther said:

Isn't the Side3 also capable of loading (many) ATR images without the U1MB?  Sounds like that's what he needs!

 

Without U1MB it can load only extremally simple ATRs - in practice, almost nothing. You need U1MB to unleash its full potential (which is then greater than the one of AVG). But without U1MB AVG is better here.

[Panther]

15 minutes ago, Mr Robot said:

AVGCART with SIO cable is compatible with more ATR's than SIDE3. 

No doubt there, I just meant if he was going to use a Side cartridge.  I think the added SIO capability of AVGCart is a great all-in-one solution.

 

[Mr Robot]

9 minutes ago, Panther said:

No doubt there, I just meant if he was going to use a Side cartridge.  I think the added SIO capability of AVGCart is a great all-in-one solution.

 

He's not using a SIDE cartridge, he's using an AVGCART to run the SIDE cart image that FJC created for it to put the AVG into side mode, so he already has the AVG, just needs the cable if he doesn't already have it.

 

14 minutes ago, Peri Noid said:

Without U1MB it can load only extremally simple ATRs - in practice, almost nothing. You need U1MB to unleash its full potential (which is then greater than the one of AVG). But without U1MB AVG is better here.

And with just the €10 cable for the AVGCART it can load pretty much everything, more than the SIDE3 + U1MB combo. The cable then also adds CAS compatibility. SIDE3 can't load CAS files at all.

 

Given that the SIDE3 was created after the AVGCART I'm honestly surprised that candle didn't add an sio header to it like the AVG has so it too could add a cable to the SIO port, seems like a trivial addition to the board that would have given SIDE3 parity in every way with AVG and also all the cool extra stuff on that board +FJC's UI, would have been a killer cart at that point. I wonder if the upcoming PBI U1MB+SIDE device he's creating has that port. I expect the one tmp is creating will do.

 

[Panther]

3 minutes ago, Mr Robot said:

And with just the €10 cable for the AVGCART it can load pretty much everything, more than the SIDE3 + U1MB combo.

Now I'm curious, what's an example of an image file that works with AVGCART but not Side3+U1MB?

 

[flashjazzcat]

27 minutes ago, Mr Robot said:

Given that the SIDE3 was created after the AVGCART I'm honestly surprised that candle didn't add an sio header to it like the AVG has so it too could add a cable to the SIO port, seems like a trivial addition to the board that would have given SIDE3 parity in every way with AVG and also all the cool extra stuff on that board +FJC's UI

Really? You do realise that AVG is an 'intelligent' device with an MCU which runs a complete FAT file system driver on the chip, among other things. Using this approach (similar to the Ultimate Cart and UNO Cart), the menu front-end need simply issue messages to the MCU on the cart and await for a response (which will include a package of data: filenames, file content, emulated disk sectors, etc). The software running on the 6502 is therefore absolved of many complex tasks; not only this, but the cartridge can - for example - run a complete peripheral server in the background (this is what allows the SIO-connected disk images using the cable you mention).

 

SIDE3 is a more 'bare metal device', with logic implemented on the cart's CPLD/FPGA, but the 6502 doing all the work (the only exception here being SIDE3's DMA engine, which can run in the background while the 6502 does other things if necessary). This follows the convention adhered to by U1MB, SIDE2, Incognito, etc. It is therefore not possible to run a peripheral emulator, FAT file system driver or any kind of message-driven co-processing on the SIDE3 (aside from the aforementioned DMA engine). Cartridge emulation is entirely logic-driven and is set up by the 6502 software on the loader, which also (like the U1MB PBI BIOS) talks to the SD card directly over the SPI bus, and implements file system drivers, etc, right on the Atari itself.

 

So: providing SIO-hosted disk emulation would be rather a tall order, regardless of the fact the SIO-cable approach (and everything attendant to it) does not appear to be Candle's cup of tea. Nor is it mine. This is not to say I disapprove of a device which implements such a thing (I am rather impressed by most of what has been accomplished on the AVG cart); just that this is not the way we choose to do things with SIDE3. This of course means a lot more work is required from me, but that's part of the fun.

27 minutes ago, Mr Robot said:

would have been a killer cart at that point.

Whether SIDE3 is a killer cart or not is of course a matter of opinion, partly depending on whether the user has or intends to purchase U1MB, or whether he cares about stand-alone ATR handling. There seems to me no point - now that AVG exists - in creating a second version of the AVG cart. Plenty of interesting opportunities for innovation exist in other areas, such as integration with existing upgrades (the 'ecosystem', if you will).

27 minutes ago, Mr Robot said:

I wonder if the upcoming PBI U1MB+SIDE device he's creating has that port. I expect the one tmp is creating will do.

No: the PBI implementation of U1MB will follow the exact same design ethic I described above. Of course, in that case, the U1MB dependencies (or extended functionality, at least) will no longer be a factor at all, since the PBI-based ATR handling (and bootable APT HDD partitions, etc) will be a native feature of the all-in-one device. Since tmp appears committed to the 'intelligent' device approach, meanwhile, I have little doubt his PBI solution will be completely different to the External U1MB. Which is just as it should be.

19 minutes ago, Panther said:

what's an example of an image file that works with AVGCART but not Side3+U1MB?

Any disk image whose boot-loader attempts to talk directly to the SIO hardware (bypassing the OS) will fail with a PBI-hosted ATR solution with no wired connection to the SIO bus. These are not exactly overwhelmingly common, and with so much available in XEX format (and SIDE3's ability to emulate most known cartridge types), it is hardly a show-stopping issue for the majority of users. It must be remembered that PBI-based ATR hosting allows much higher IO speeds than any SIO solution, so if the user wishes to back up his APT partitions to 32MB ATRs, this is something to think about.

 

Other than the custom SIO loaders, there are probably a few ATRs which object to the presence of a PBI device handler full stop (and anything which requires a 400/800 OS obviously isn't going to work with something which exploits the PBI).

 

Edited May 14, 2021 by flashjazzcat
typos

[Wrathchild]

Was going to say its like comparing apples and pears but FJC has summed it up

[Mr Robot]

7 minutes ago, flashjazzcat said:

Really? You do realise that AVG is an 'intelligent' device with an MCU which runs a complete FAT file system driver on the chip, among other things. Using this approach (similar to the Ultimate Cart and UNO Cart), the menu front-end need simply issue messages to the MCU on the cart and await for a response (which will include a package of data: filenames, file content, emulated disk sectors, etc). The software running on the 6502 is therefore absolved of many complex tasks; not only this, but the cartridge can - for example - run a complete peripheral server in the background (this is what allows the SIO-connected disk images using the cable you mention).

 

Yeah I obviously gave about 1% thought to the idea after 'durrr stick a port on the PCB durrr'  but if anyone was going to be able to create a cart that uses the 6502 the way the SIDE does and still allows for the SIDE to be an SIO host device, it would be you. 

 

 

 

 

[Mr Robot]

2 minutes ago, Wrathchild said:

Was going to say its like comparing apples and pears but FJC has summed it up

They both make great Cider*†.

 

 

*Technically pears make perry but most people just call it pear cider.

†"Hard cider" for the Americans reading.

[Sinjinhawke]

2 minutes ago, Wrathchild said:

Was going to say its like comparing apples and pears but FJC has summed it up

I don't think that was a summary.  Maybe a dissertation.  I'm not complaining.  Reading FJC responses are always a treat.  Gets the old neurons firing.

[mimo]

3 minutes ago, Mr Robot said:

They both make great Cider*†.

 

 

*Technically pears make perry but most people just call it pear cider.

†"Hard cider" for the Americans reading.

Unfortunately in the UK most commercial pear cider is a blend of apples and pears ☹️ true Perry is a wonderful thing, especially when made from your own pears 

[Mclaneinc]

Both great carts, nuff said..

[Mr Robot]

1 minute ago, mimo said:

Unfortunately in the UK most commercial pear cider is a blend of apples and pears ☹️ true Perry is a wonderful thing, especially when made from your own pears 

I know, I used to work at Gaymers

[mimo]

Just now, Mr Robot said:

I know, I used to work at Gaymers

Cool 

[flashjazzcat]

59 minutes ago, Sinjinhawke said:

I don't think that was a summary.  Maybe a dissertation.  I'm not complaining.  Reading FJC responses are always a treat.  Gets the old neurons firing.

Is that actually considered a 'long' post? I notice passages of text which seem lengthy on my phone aren't when I look at them on the PC.

 

[Mr Robot]

If it's too big for a tweet, it needs a TLDR 

 

It's an ADHD world

 

[flashjazzcat]

Well, if they're accepting 500 word dissertations these days, I was severely over-worked at University.

 

[Sinjinhawke]

22 minutes ago, flashjazzcat said:

Is that actually considered a 'long' post? I notice passages of text which seem lengthy on my phone aren't when I look at them on the PC.

 

You're good.  I just had to use my scroll wheel to read the full post which is a lot of effort.  My fault for not having a 5K display. 

[flashjazzcat]

Scroll wheels? 5K displays? I wrote my 4,000 word dissertation on an 8-bit Atari with - at the time - a 40x24 display (fact).

 

 

[Mclaneinc]

I on the other hand was too thick to go to Uni, both my wife and daughter prove to be the brains of the outfit..Both went / going to Uni.

 

I thought dissertation was something that made you pooh and feel sick...(joking)

 

As for 4,000 words on 40x24....Nooooooooooooooooo...I didn't even like writing my reviews on the Atari in Atariwriter...

Edited May 14, 2021 by Mclaneinc

[flashjazzcat]

I may have underestimated the length of the dissertation, but in any case, I wrote a 120,000 word novel using the same setup a couple of years later. I cannot blame the limitations of the Atari for the fact it never reached publication.

[+orpheuswaking]

10 minutes ago, flashjazzcat said:

I may have underestimated the length of the dissertation, but in any case, I wrote a 120,000 word novel using the same setup a couple of years later. I cannot blame the limitations of the Atari for the fact it never reached publication.

wait, where is this fabled FJC novel?