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Gyruss for Intellivision?

Steve Jones
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the1hatman Stargunner

+the1hatman

Posted
Posted

the1hatman, on 20 Nov 2018 - 4:56 PM, said:snapback.png

This is bad but not indicative of the community in general.

There, you did say that this was bad but not that bad since this particular instance was just once.

BUT IS NOT INDICATIVE OF THE COMMUNITY IN GENERAL does not equal NOT THAT BAD. Assuming the "not that bad" part is where you fail at reading comprehension. That was written in response to people saying this is happening with increasing frequency. It is, given that one is greater than the zero we were at prior to Gyruss, but it is not happening at such a rate that a crash is immanent or that the community is supporting this kind of activity.

If you don't understand what you are reading, ask for clarification.

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the1hatman Stargunner

+the1hatman

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And to ensure that you don't try to claim that you never said I do not trust European members for these matters, there it is.

 

I can simply quote mthompson in response to you continued lack of reading comprehension: "the1hatman didn't say you don't trust European members in these matters. He said you blew off (ignored) what they contributed to this discussion. If seems to me that you're mischaracterizing what he's said, and that's escalating the rhetoric."

 

 

Also, to tackle this before I move on (this being the bottom two lines of the quote), I am giving you one more chance to remain civil. If you want to keep at this, I can go there, but I am confident that I can act as such far better (or worse, depending on how you look at it) than you.

 

Part of civility in a discussion is to not assign false statements to those you are engaged in debate with and keeping intellectually honest during the discourse. You can continue this attempt at claiming "maturity" but you tossed that out the door when you went down the strawman argument path and I have treated you as such.

 

 

Do you want to know why I, despite being called a liar, "abject rookie" (there's your quotes, direct one will be in post below), and whatever else you could throw at me, have not snapped? Why I have not used emojis or resorted to name calling (other than a couple of times when you were being particularly immature)?

 

I could not care less as to why you haven't snapped or anything else. You have presented falsehoods and acted irresponsibly during the discussion. As such, "abject rookie" is my personal assessment of how you choose to present yourself here. Snap or don't snap as you see fit.

 

 

It is because I have faced far worse elsewhere, on other sites and forums. I have built up a certain tolerance over time, however I also have learned how to truly go low to get to someone.

 

Go as low as you like but know that assigning false statements to people is already a pretty low bar.

 

 

If we are going to debate over whether Gyruss-like scams will result in a crash, then I recommend neither of us go there. However, if you continue this kind of behavior, I will do the same. I know I am repeating myself from yesterday, but I want to clarify that I do not wish to go there, and will only if I believe it to be necessary.

 

Again, I could not care less. Respond as you will. Just understand that lecturing others on debate etiquette rings very hollow coming from someone who had to be taken to task just to get them to use people's actual statements rather than twisting their words and presenting it as a quote.

 

More on topic, I fully agree that Gyruss-like scams can absolutely result in a crash. I simply disagree with the assertion that this kind of behavior is happening at a frequency needed to do as much and that the notion the community has turned a blind enough eye to it that such a crash is likely is demonstrably false.

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arcade124 Moonsweeper

arcade124

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Posted

 

 

Well, even so, it doesn't detract from the numerous other reasons I explained as to why a crash is coming.

This is not blowing him off. Blowing him off would be acting like he doesn't know what he's talking about, and continuing to use Tutankham in Super Cobra in my argument, neither of which I have done after that post.

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arcade124 Moonsweeper

arcade124

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the1hatman, on 20 Nov 2018 - 4:56 PM, said:snapback.png

There, you did say that this was bad but not that bad since this particular instance was just once.

BUT IS NOT INDICATIVE OF THE COMMUNITY IN GENERAL does not equal NOT THAT BAD. Assuming the "not that bad" part is where you fail at reading comprehension. That was written in response to people saying this is happening with increasing frequency. It is, given that one is greater than the zero we were at prior to Gyruss, but it is not happening at such a rate that a crash is immanent or that the community is supporting this kind of activity.

If you don't understand what you are reading, ask for clarification.

 

 

 

Part of civility in a discussion is to not assign false statements to those you are engaged in debate with and keeping intellectually honest during the discourse. You can continue this attempt at claiming "maturity" but you tossed that out the door when you went down the strawman argument path and I have treated you as such.

 

Go as low as you like but know that assigning false statements to people is already a pretty low bar.

 

Again, I could not care less. Respond as you will. Just understand that lecturing others on debate etiquette rings very hollow coming from someone who had to be taken to task just to get them to use people's actual statements rather than twisting their words and presenting it as a quote.

 

More on topic, I fully agree that Gyruss-like scams can absolutely result in a crash. I simply disagree with the assertion that this kind of behavior is happening at a frequency needed to do as much and that the notion the community has turned a blind enough eye to it that such a crash is likely is demonstrably false.

Alright, here's what I know: I keep receiving messages about all these instances of Gyruss-like events occurring. As I have not followed the INTV community for long (unlike some others such as the CV community), I do not know what they are but the people are legitimate sources. I will not reveal their names, but can copy-paste their quotes if you deem it necessary.

 

I have quoted you almost every time I have replied, so everyone knows who and what I am replying to. You seem to be taking the once or twice I forgot to quote you and using it to turn the argument against me.

 

I bring up the lack of snapping because take note that I have remained mostly calm throughout this, while you keep getting pissed and calling me names. Besides intellivotion, I have yet to see anyone come to defend you, while I have both m-crew and DJ to back me up. That's only one person more, but that's also just on this thread, i.e. not including those messaging me. They do not accuse me of assigning false quotes, and agree with my arguments.

 

Also, as I understand it you are a developer (also from messages I have received). Is it possible you are only saying this to try to keep people leaving so you can sell more games?

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the1hatman Stargunner

+the1hatman

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This is not blowing him off. Blowing him off would be acting like he doesn't know what he's talking about, and continuing to use Tutankham in Super Cobra in my argument, neither of which I have done after that post.

 

Agreed. I retract my previous statements concerning your discussions with the European contingent of our group. My apologies for not applying enough of my own reading comprehension to your posts regarding this part of the discussion.

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the1hatman Stargunner

+the1hatman

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Alright, here's what I know: I keep receiving messages about all these instances of Gyruss-like events occurring. As I have not followed the INTV community for long (unlike some others such as the CV community), I do not know what they are but the people are legitimate sources. I will not reveal their names, but can copy-paste their quotes if you deem it necessary.

 

I have asked for more examples other than Gyruss so if you can provide them, that would be useful to the discussion. To be clear, I am referring to examples of stolen code being brought to market as a completed game.

 

 

I have quoted you almost every time I have replied, so everyone knows who and what I am replying to. You seem to be taking the once or twice I forgot to quote you and using it to turn the argument against me.

 

Almost is not good enough. As plenty have stated here regarding Gyruss, even once is unacceptable. It is not that you "forgot to quote" me, it's attributing statements to me in quotation that neither I or others have actually said.

 

 

I bring up the lack of snapping because take note that I have remained mostly calm throughout this, while you keep getting pissed and calling me names.

 

I would hardly describe any post I have made here as "getting pissed". As stated above, I assessed your responses and their tone as "abject rookie" level and I stand by that. I previously stated that referencing myself and others in quotation with things we had not said is tantamount to lies and I stand by that as well. Call it name calling if you like but let's not pretend I am in here going "Well your're just a big stupid poo-poo head you big meany jerk!" I have more than thoroughly explained why you have earned such labels from me and how you can avoid it going further.

 

 

Besides intellivotion, I have yet to see anyone come to defend you, while I have both m-crew and DJ to back me up. That's only one person more, but that's also just on this thread, i.e. not including those messaging me. They do not accuse me of assigning false quotes, and agree with my arguments.

 

This I find rather childish. It's a discussion not popularity contest. I do not require backing up nor do I feel the need to seek it out. If I did I could point out that you've left several "backers" of mine out of the total but that is still irrelevant to the debate. I have also received PMs from those agreeing with me but that has nothing to do with the topic so I haven't felt the need to bring it up.

 

And of course the people who agree with you aren't going to say you're assigning false quotes because they agree with you!

 

 

Also, as I understand it you are a developer (also from messages I have received). Is it possible you are only saying this to try to keep people leaving so you can sell more games?

 

 

If you are receiving messages saying I am a game developer then you need to check the sources. I am not a programmer, developer, code writer or distributor of any games. So you can keep such nonsense accusations to yourself.

 

For full disclosure, I've created a few game box designs which have been printed and sold by others for which I received a copy of the completed box as compensation. I have never been paid for my work. I have also printed and hand constructed a few boxes when I worked in a print shop and traded them for items for my collection along with a handful of sales on eBay. Nothing I have created has seen wide distribution. I consider it to be no more than fan art to this point.

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arcade124 Moonsweeper

arcade124

Posted
Posted

 

Agreed. I retract my previous statements concerning your discussions with the European contingent of our group. My apologies for not applying enough of my own reading comprehension to your posts regarding this part of the discussion.

Thanks, and I apologize if I misunderstood what you meant about Gyruss being "not that bad".

 

 

I have asked for more examples other than Gyruss so if you can provide them, that would be useful to the discussion. To be clear, I am referring to examples of stolen code being brought to market as a completed game.

 

Almost is not good enough. As plenty have stated here regarding Gyruss, even once is unacceptable. It is not that you "forgot to quote" me, it's attributing statements to me in quotation that neither I or others have actually said.

 

I would hardly describe any post I have made here as "getting pissed". As stated above, I assessed your responses and their tone as "abject rookie" level and I stand by that. I previously stated that referencing myself and others in quotation with things we had not said is tantamount to lies and I stand by that as well. Call it name calling if you like but let's not pretend I am in here going "Well your're just a big stupid poo-poo head you big meany jerk!" I have more than thoroughly explained why you have earned such labels from me and how you can avoid it going further.

 

This I find rather childish. It's a discussion not popularity contest. I do not require backing up nor do I feel the need to seek it out. If I did I could point out that you've left several "backers" of mine out of the total but that is still irrelevant to the debate. I have also received PMs from those agreeing with me but that has nothing to do with the topic so I haven't felt the need to bring it up.

 

And of course the people who agree with you aren't going to say you're assigning false quotes because they agree with you!

 

If you are receiving messages saying I am a game developer then you need to check the sources. I am not a programmer, developer, code writer or distributor of any games. So you can keep such nonsense accusations to yourself.

 

For full disclosure, I've created a few game box designs which have been printed and sold by others for which I received a copy of the completed box as compensation. I have never been paid for my work. I have also printed and hand constructed a few boxes when I worked in a print shop and traded them for items for my collection along with a handful of sales on eBay. Nothing I have created has seen wide distribution. I consider it to be no more than fan art to this point.

I did not realize you meant specific examples of stolen code being brought to market, the messages I have been receiving entail just shady occurrences in general going down in the community. This is what I have been referring to throughout my arguments.

 

As far as getting pissed, it is not just the name calling. The name calling is the main point I am making about immaturity, however it is not the only instance as far as you getting pissed goes. It is in the way you talk on here, calling me a liar and even just now spitting "So you can keep such nonsense accusations to yourself." Speaking of that, I was simply ill-informed, as I said these were in messages and I was not aware. That's why I said "as I understand it".

 

Well then, find the times when I forgot to quote you and when you say I attributed false statements to you and I can explain where I got those lines from.

 

Finally, as far as the childish element goes, I warned you that if you continued acting like this I would go just as low.

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jaybird3rd Quadrunner

jaybird3rd

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Posted



It would be a whole lot easier to deal with these controversies in a constructive way if you guys would do a better job of keeping the signal-to-noise ratio of these discussions to a tolerable level. I just went back and re-read this entire thread, and as far as I can tell, it can all be boiled down to the following:

  1. In June 2018, a "new" Gyruss for Intellivision is announced by Dino "DinoY" Yachaya on Facebook, complete with an authentic-looking Parker Brothers box, for 150 euros plus shipping. It is soon pointed out that the "new" Gyruss bears a strong resemblance to Deep Zone by Arturo "ArtRag" Ragozini.
  2. The Facebook post is deleted soon afterward. The announcement for the "new" Gyruss is changed to say that it was "inspired" by ArtRag's code, which was supposedly "reworked," even though the screenshots still closely resemble the original. Further investigation and new video footage indicates that it is more of a ripoff than previously believed: everything from sounds, graphics, scoring, level design, movement, and so on were apparently lifted directly from Deep Zone.
  3. The "new" Gyruss is cancelled and there are confirmed reports of buyers receiving refunds. DinoY appears on AtariAge, claiming to have believed that there was no restriction on the reuse of ArtRag's code, and that "many hours of work" were put into the "new" Gyruss and that "there are differences in the game" as a result. He further claims that the video of the "new" Gyruss cited earlier (which closely resembles Deep Zone) "does not represent the game worked by us."
  4. ArtRag rejects the explanation, demanding a physical copy of the "new" Gyruss from DinoY so he can compare it himself to the video. DinoY replies to say that, since the game was cancelled and since no copies were shipped, there is no need to send anything and that he considers the matter closed.
  5. ArtRag disagrees, states that the timing of DinoY's story does not hold up, calls into question his original intentions, and calls on him to publicly post his source code. DinoY responds, reiterating his claim that his use of ArtRag's code was simply due to his naivete, and claiming that subsequent planned releases have also been cancelled. DinoY is banned from AtariAge around the same time.
  6. ArtRag reasserts that he is the injured party, says that he does not believe that DinoY will not try to sell the game through other channels, and again asks for the game sources to be posted publicly.
  7. Others point out that, setting aside the issue of the origin of the source code and whether or not it was used improperly, the idea of such high-priced limited releases is damaging to the hobby.
  8. ArtRag again accuses DinoY of lying and defrauding the community, and demands once again for the code to be released publicly.
  9. Others debate about intellectual property, the legitimacy of "derivative works," and the degree of unauthorized "borrowing" in homebrew games in general.
  10. Go back and repeat points 8-9 for another four or five pages.
  11. A "redeveloped" version of the "new" Gyruss appears. ArtRag calls for the ROM to be published. The new developer posts gameplay video, but refuses to post any code (beyond a previously-shared "engine") or a ROM unless DinoY is readmitted to AtariAge.
  12. ArtRag accuses the new developer of scamming the community and continuing to use his code without permission.
  13. Others debate high-priced, limited-release homebrew games, and their overall impact on the hobby.
  14. A few high-priced copies of the "new" Gyruss are sold on eBay. Weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth ensues.
  15. Go back and repeat points 12-14 for another ten pages, with lots of memes, emojis, nitpicking, name-calling, and m-crew quoting or repeating himself every five or six posts.

 

Have I missed anything, and was it really necessary for this to fill a 26-page thread? What's even worse is that this controversy is apparently being re-litigated in other threads about other homebrew games, with vague allusions in one thread to something that was said in another thread, to the point where everyone else has to waste an entire afternoon just to put it all together and figure out why the hell everybody is sniping at each other.

I'm not sure that keeping this thread open any longer can serve any useful purpose. I think we can all agree that ArtRag is right to be upset that someone else appears to have taken his code and used it without permission in a game sold to hardcore collectors for a hefty profit, and that the community should not reward this behavior (neither the stealing nor the pricing). However, now that his point has been made—over and over and over again ad nauseum—I'm not sure what else can be done about it here, especially since the individuals responsible have already been banned.

 

If the issues of "price gouging" and/or the unauthorized use of intellectual property in the homebrew community need to be discussed further, how about starting a dedicated thread which addresses those subjects directly, instead of spamming other unrelated threads with redundant, snide, indirect references to them? (Looking at you, m-crew!)

 

Over and out, thread locked, and remember ... games are supposed to be fun.

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