What was the Jaguar truly capable of?

[+CyranoJ]

 

Well let me ask you this question... What have I done to you to deserve hostile language? I've been nothing but friendly to everyone I've met over here, yet I get nothing but the grief coming from you. Was it something I did or said or is the fact that I was JS2 regular...? I mean what's your problem? I've never insulted you, called you out of your name or posted smart remarks after a post is up. It's like your mimicking the avatar your using by stalking me whenever I post something; are you a stalker or you just get your rocks going after people you don't know for no good reason??? What gives?

You have been openly hostile to AtarAge, the moderators here, myself, and several other people from this forum.

 

Not here, but in other places.

 

While you may not "shit where you eat" you most certainly do shit, and people tend not to like dealing with others who have two faces.

 

The Jaguar scene is, on the whole, pretty damned amazing. But it isn't big enough for people to act differently on different forums without being noticed.

[philipj]

The problem is that you post bullshit. Friendly bullshit maybe, but still bullshit. And despite the fact that it's been pointed out to you several times, you keep doing it.

 

AtariAge is a forum, it's not your personal blog or Facebook page. There are more than enough people posting misinformation about the Jaguar already.

 

So tell me this... What isn't BS??? Because the way you carry yourself around me, if I was to post something that wasn't considered BS, whatever the blazes that is, I think you would still come with some reason heckle me. I honestly don't think you have full definition of BS and you just do this to people you think in your mind is some kind of whatever negative opinion in your head. Give a person the moon and he will say "THAT'S NOT ENOUGH". You seem to be that kind of person, but then I can be wrong about you as you are about me.

 

You have been openly hostile to AtarAge, the moderators here, myself, and several other people from this forum.

 

Not here, but in other places.

 

While you may not "shit where you eat" you most certainly do shit, and people tend not to like dealing with others who have two faces.

 

The Jaguar scene is, on the whole, pretty damned amazing. But it isn't big enough for people to act differently on different forums without being noticed.

 

 

I think you're fishing for information on me or something; or trying to be funny... You know as well as I do the only time I talked about anyone here was when one of you called me out on it... I admitted it publicly and apologized for it, because the last thing I want to do to start a flame-war over a kids toy we have an enthusiasm about and ruin an entire community over little of nothing. No one here or anywhere else at any other forum has heard me speak bad about anyone since the apology; I was raised better than that and it goes against my core belief system. Now I'll admit maybe ten years I might come here, post something, then go back and gossip a little bit but a lot of people did that back then, which is what caused a lot of confusion, but you wanna know something...? Sometimes you have to look in the mirror and say I'm responsible for what I do in the community and how it affects people as a whole even if it is a video game forum. I just don't see myself as any type of hindering force for blatant accusations against me like that... I mean where have you've seen me do these things you said I did as of recent??? Point out the forum and I'll go there and do the same thing I did here and apologize for whatever confusion you think I'm causing... You can't because I haven't did any of the things you said I did; you either got it in your mind that I'm doing those things or just miss informed.

 

Look... I'm not trying to be the enemy here.

[Gummy Bear]

That, right there ^

In your first sentence. That's the BS.

Your intransigent, self projected view of things

 

I think that's what annoys people most and gets you the most bad press, man:

Your wilful dismissal of facts presented by people who know more than you, simply because you WISH things were different.

 

Please don't take this as an attack. Just trying to point it out

[Lost Dragon]

@Spider-Dan/Austin:

 

It's just a pity Carlo Perconti never got further than he did with Conan on Jaguar, that would of been an excellent addition to the Jaguar library.

 

 

I was never impressed by the visual style of Toki myself, but likes of Bobby Earle might be another source of potential info on how far the Jaguar could of been taken, 2D wise.

 

Maybe a few people from Beyond Games?.

Never seen Tim Huntsman have a proper interview, he seems quite opinionated in the quotes i have seen from him, makes for interesting reading if nothing else.

 

 

Most industry chat i have seen regarding the Jaguar and it's canned 2D games, usually relates to how Atari's marketing department killed the project.

[Lost Dragon]

Austin pretty much nailed the aspect that there is sometimes a tendency to overstate just how great in terms of 2D, titles like Rayman and Super Burnout were on the Jaguar.

 

Whilst Rayman in particular did look utterly gorgeous, it wasn't without it's short comings in key areas and the same applies to Super Burnout.

 

That's not being overly critical at what was achieved, it's just vital the games are grounded within the realms of an honest appraisal.

 

 

The Jaguar hardware itself was limited by Ram and the development teams working on it didn't have the resources, experience or budgets the likes of Sega, Capcom, Treasure, SNK etc could call apon.

 

 

I have never really been that impressed by the art direction of Death Watch ether, too generic.

 

No offence to Data Designs, they just didn't have the experience.

 

I actually quite liked their earlier Amiga titke:

 

 

 

Some SNK folk have talked about how working on the more limited arcade hardware, compared to their competitors, forced them into being far more creative in art design, so hardware limitations aren't always a limiting factor, but the Jaguar was never going to pull off so thing like this unreleased Co-Jag based Killer Instinct clone, it would of had to of been seriously cut down.

 

 

 

Capcom have spoken about the frustrations of the western markets unwilling to risk backing the 4 meg Ram cart for the Saturn and so they had to look on as compromised versions of their games were released.

 

I would of loved to see the Jaguar taken beyond Rayman and Super Burnout, but from a commercial level it was never going to happen.

 

Marketing didn't want it.

 

The press didn't want it..making clear they felt 2D belonged on the era of the SNES and Genesis, all eyes now on how many texture mapped polygons a second your system could shift..

 

And as a result we saw the Jaguar suffer with likes of Supercross, Hoverstrike, I-War (when engine under stress ) etc with games with awful frame rates.

 

 

Looking back it was that akward period of transition for the industry as a whole.

Edited October 31, 2018 by Lost Dragon

[Lost Dragon]

This might sound like a bloody fool question (and indeed it's being asked by one ), but what exactly are people looking for,when the topic of what could of been done,2D wise on Jaguar,is brought up?.

 

 

1.More games that were avaiable on other formats and maybe even annouced for Jaguar?

 

I for one am very glad crap like this never made it to Jaguar:

 

 

2.Real showcase games for the system, Native,Zzyorxx II and Conan being the strongest contenders for myself, Indiana Jag joining other titles i mentioned earlier as not looking overly promising to be blunt..

 

3.Neo Geo conversions, which the 3DO had with Samurai Showdown,so the 2 systems can be compared yet again?.

 

Just what exactly?

 

I ask because it's extremely evident the resources Atari had to call on,lacked the artistic flair of those working on Sega and Nintendo titles more often than not.

 

If someone decided to write a flagship 2D platformer for the Jaguar,here and now, which market are you going to design it for?

 

Pixel perfect jumps and challenging difficulty are bread and butter for some,toxic for others.

 

Even if you find the artists and musicians you want and they have a unique visual style, your only just setting foot on a mammoth journey.

 

The essential level design is in itself a monumental challenge.

 

Do people want more conveyor belts,spike pits,blade traps, springboard,ice levels etc or has it all become rather stale?.

 

 

Some still moan at the ST ports appearing on Jaguar, whilst seeming to forget by the time the titles themselves had appeared on ST,their designers,artists etc had a well established career in the industry and had been doing countless 8 bit games, let alone 16 bit titles and learnt valuable lessons along the way.

 

And even then struggled to recapture the magic or earlier titles at times.

 

I would venture creating a worthy 2D game is anything if not more challenging than doing a 3D title.

 

Making games simply equals a lot of bloody hard work.

[saboteur]

The mechanics of coding a platform game are actualy pretty simple for most coding languages.

 

Display screen -> player moves -> has player hit platform/enemy -> repeat

 

But as Lost Dragon so ably stated above, game design, level design, graphics and sound are the real time consumers.

 

For me game / level design are the hardest to get right.

 

You can have the prettiest graphics and great sounds, but if ain't fun to play, then whats the point.

 

Some of the best games i've ever played have simple audio and visuals but the gameplay is second to none and always keeps you wanting ' just one more go'

[Lost Dragon]

I can only ever comment as a gamer, but i long ago lost count of the amount of times i have simply walked away from a title as for me, the fun factor is no longer there...

 

If it was a racing game and the handling didn't feel right and tracks felt repetitive. .

 

A platformer with those bloody blind leaps of faith and unresponsive controls or a feeling of seen it all before.

 

 

I feel very strongly that Bubble Bobble is a far superior title to later releases like Rainbow Islands and Parasol Stars as the gameplay shines through and it doesn't need gimmicks or flashier visuals.

 

I don't know enough about Jaguar Stellar X other than it would of thrown a lot more sprites around than Super Burnout, to really comment on it as a game, i would of hoped the gameplay mirrored the technical ambition, but the 2 don't always go hand in hand.

 

 

And Livewire sounded intriguing on a technical level, multiple parallax layers etc and plans for the A.I sounded great.

 

But the game itself reminded me of Thunder Force II and Granada in places...

 

So it seemed a novel visual approach being taken to a familiar genre, more than something taking the Jaguar 2D abilities into new realms.

[Zerosquare]

That, right there ^

In your first sentence. That's the BS.

Your intransigent, self projected view of things

 

I think that's what annoys people most and gets you the most bad press, man:

Your wilful dismissal of facts presented by people who know more than you, simply because you WISH things were different.

 

Please don't take this as an attack. Just trying to point it out

Thanks. I have nothing to add.

[philipj]

That, right there ^

In your first sentence. That's the BS.

Your intransigent, self projected view of things

 

I think that's what annoys people most and gets you the most bad press, man:

Your wilful dismissal of facts presented by people who know more than you, simply because you WISH things were different.

 

Please don't take this as an attack. Just trying to point it out

 

Thanks. I have nothing to add.

 

Intransigent ha...? Well I consider myself to be a man of principle, but I try to look at things differently. I stick by whatever I think is right and sometimes whatever works for me until I get it right. If that particular trait of my character rubs off wrong, that's still no excuse for others to make unsavory accusations against me when you know it's not true. When I read something here and I don't like what I read, I either try to resolve the issue or ignore the thread all together. Sometimes some of the humor here can be entertaining, but there are limits to how far to take the humor I mean you can't really make anyone not be humorous, but there times when looks like it's been blurred or completely crossed when the humor comes at the expense of other. I've been around the community lone enough to know a few things about how crazy things can get over here; I sometimes get it and sometimes I ignore and keep browsing. But I've seen people ran out of here are at least kept their distance because of a lot of nonsensical sarcasm and comedic post that sometimes didn't absolutely make any sense what-so-ever. You talk about the points I've been scoring here with my unwillingness to change in opinion, but sword cuts both ways with the reputation the has also accumulated here over time. But then again people will be people and sometimes their's no way of stopping that.

 

I'll try and do my best to keep the peace over here and not let any more undue potential arguments occur on my account as best as I can because even in my JS2 days I was always about preserving the community... But on that note, most know that people can and have posted the most investigative stuff just to get some kind of flame war going for whatever reason and sometimes just for no good reason other than to start some stuff; that too plays a role in my posting as well as far as my approach has been. There's a history of it here just like CJ tried to point some kind of history of me. Normally I try and stay focus on the topic as much as possible and keep the thread on course to my understanding and stay positive, but a consistent barrage of trying to make someone come out of character just to get their thread locked or some kind of ban or whatever it is you do, just know that reputation is out there too while you trying to paint an untrue picture of me. A wink and a nod "This thread will be closed soon blah blah blah"??? This is the only forum I know of that does that kind of thing... Think about that...

 

That is all.

Edited October 31, 2018 by philipj

[+CyranoJ]

Way to stop posting walls of text nobody cares about.

[Gummy Bear]

Words and stuff

Nobody is asking you to change who you are. They're just asking you to accept expert opinions and not go off on a tangent of how the Jag must be able to run Dreamcast games because it has a bigger physical footprint or something.

[philipj]

Nobody is asking you to change who you are. They're just asking you to accept expert opinions and not go off on a tangent of how the Jag must be able to run Dreamcast games because it has a bigger physical footprint or something.

 

Well let's just say I have big dreams for the Jaguar and I've been looking into other alternatives past the normal routine the Jaguar was originally designed for... If my opinions reflect that sometimes, I try to stay within the parameters of the topic as much as possible, but I have other ideas on the table that I don't mention here less people really think I out of my rockers.

 

Way to stop posting walls of text nobody cares about.

 

You ask for it you got it... Don't fly false accusation at me and maybe I won't post as much.

Edited October 31, 2018 by philipj

[Lost Dragon]

Before this thread gets locked...

 

I think the honest reality is this...

 

Whilst it can make for an interesting talking point regarding just how much further the Jaguar could of been taken 2D or 3D wise, the simple fact is...

 

 

The very fact we didn't see games that went beyond Rayman or Super Burnout when the Jaguar was at it's peak from a commercial viewpoint and had European and American development teams with Atari UK and USA looking to broker deals to see titles finished and released for a user base in the hundreds of thousands...

 

 

Makes the likelihood of any homegrown title that goes beyond what was achieved at a commercial level, pretty damn non existant.

 

If it was going to be done, it would of been done.

 

The existing Jaguar user base, as passionate as it is, hasn't the numbers to justify the sheer level of man hours required to bring something on par with Rayman to fruition from scratch.

[philipj]

Some SNK folk have talked about how working on the more limited arcade hardware, compared to their competitors, forced them into being far more creative in art design, so hardware limitations aren't always a limiting factor, but the Jaguar was never going to pull off so thing like this unreleased Co-Jag based Killer Instinct clone, it would of had to of been seriously cut down.

 

 

 

One of the reasons I've taken interest in wanting to make games was my curiosity about Killer Instinct on the SNES... I never fully understood as a teen why KI for the SNES, although nearly arcade perfect, why the SNES hardware was never able to handle the same level of graphics as the original arcade. Of course I got a better understanding of all of that stuff as I got older, but the thought did stick with me for a long till this day. The Sega CD was able to pull off some level of remarkable CGI using fmv to pull it off with "Bram Stoker's Dracula"; when I played this in my teens, I use to think that it was sad Nintendo never released the, then, newly announced CD drive. The Sega CD pulled off a very decent level of graphics using live action sprites graphics in an FMV environment... I'm not sure, but I think they used "Cinepak" to compress the video. I would love to make something like that for the Jag CD where I believe it's possible to have an KI style game with an FMV background and maybe a limited/modest level of real-time 3D in the background. If Sega CD can do, so can the Jaguar; makes sense to me. That's just one thing on the table that's very much possible the Jag can potentially pull off.

 

https://youtu.be/J8DILAy40Bk?t=191

Edited October 31, 2018 by philipj

[Lost Dragon]

My understanding is Nintendo had been keeping a very close eye on how the Sega CD did at retail.

 

As soon as they saw it was failing to shift in any real numbers,they abandoned plans for the SNES CD.

 

 

Wasn't the awful Lobo meant to be the Jaguar's answer to K.I on the SNES though?.

 

I've no idea how the likes of the Jaguar CD and Sega CD stack up in terms of running FMV and real time imagery for fighting games other than Jag drive speed is faster and both could really of used a lot more Ram perhaps?.

 

Over to people who do know on this one.

 

[philipj]

Before this thread gets locked...

 

I think the honest reality is this...

 

Whilst it can make for an interesting talking point regarding just how much further the Jaguar could of been taken 2D or 3D wise, the simple fact is...

 

 

The very fact we didn't see games that went beyond Rayman or Super Burnout when the Jaguar was at it's peak from a commercial viewpoint and had European and American development teams with Atari UK and USA looking to broker deals to see titles finished and released for a user base in the hundreds of thousands...

 

 

Makes the likelihood of any homegrown title that goes beyond what was achieved at a commercial level, pretty damn non existant.

 

If it was going to be done, it would of been done.

 

The existing Jaguar user base, as passionate as it is, hasn't the numbers to justify the sheer level of man hours required to bring something on par with Rayman to fruition from scratch.

 

You're probably right... I went to school for "CAD and Design Visualization" so from my perspective, I see a lot of open doors for potential future Jag project, I just need to get the programming and the animation stuff down. While taking those course, I was also around a lot of CGI artist at that school and get a chance to see a few exciting things there that stuck with me for years so I feel like I have a good scope of things... In fact some of the CAD teachers were also CGI artist so that flavor was always in the air... I wondered if I was taking up the right course over there. lol That's what drive me sometimes. I'll eventually find an avenue for successful Jaguar development within a reasonable compromise based on everything I know.

Edited October 31, 2018 by philipj

[Lost Dragon]

Meant to say regarding Sega CD Dracula, Psygnosis not keen on it themselves:

 

 

"Psygnosis know that this game stinks ! They wanted to write a nice impressive adventure but Sega insisted on a standard platform beat 'em up type thing, just so that it would sell to little kiddies. The graphics are very very bad on the

Sega version because the Sega only has 16 colours on screen out of a pallette of 512 and you just can't get pretty digitised graphics with that sort of colour range (why do you think most Sega game are all in bright, sonic-style, primary

colours). I should imagine that all the graphics on the CD32 version will be much nicer - all the graphics are generated on SG workstations in 24-bit and reduced

to the capabilities of the platform - the game play will still be shit though.But you can thank the mighty Sega for that !

Psygnosis's CD skills have moved on considerably from the likes of Dracula and Microcosm - they're still learning !"

[philipj]

Meant to say regarding Sega CD Dracula, Psygnosis not keen on it themselves:

 

 

"Psygnosis know that this game stinks ! They wanted to write a nice impressive adventure but Sega insisted on a standard platform beat 'em up type thing, just so that it would sell to little kiddies. The graphics are very very bad on the

Sega version because the Sega only has 16 colours on screen out of a pallette of 512 and you just can't get pretty digitised graphics with that sort of colour range (why do you think most Sega game are all in bright, sonic-style, primary

colours). I should imagine that all the graphics on the CD32 version will be much nicer - all the graphics are generated on SG workstations in 24-bit and reduced

to the capabilities of the platform - the game play will still be shit though.But you can thank the mighty Sega for that !

Psygnosis's CD skills have moved on considerably from the likes of Dracula and Microcosm - they're still learning !"

 

I think they did pretty darn good with the "Soulstar" for the Sega CD... Lol...! Enough said.

[Lost Dragon]

I was a mechanical Engineer for the 1st 11 years of my working life.

 

3 years of study including 2 dealing with CAD.

 

Didn't quite prepare me for some of the more eyebrow raising aspects of the Jaguar scene over the past 5 or so years though :-))

[Gummy Bear]

I think they did pretty darn good with the "Soulstar" for the Sega CD... Lol...! Enough said.

That was Core Design.

[philipj]

Wow... So your job was a little more demanding then mine was... Mine limited to drawing buildings and converting old building plans into digital ones, assisting architects,but never fully becoming one. lol I was just fortunate enough to be around CGI artist and teachers at Virginia College being able to talk to them and even work with them and see the various stuff they were doing. Yea, but I tried my hand with that engineering work in AutoCAD; that's some tedious work, but I managed to pass the those in CAD and even used it a little on the job site.

 

That was Core Design.

 

 

Ok.. I get them confused. They're both darn good companies.

Edited October 31, 2018 by philipj

[WAVE 1 GAMES]

WHAT WAS THE JAGUAR TRULY CAPABLE OF?

 

This is a speculation thread only as NOBODY here (including CJ) has any physical evidence or examples of what the Jaguar was truly capable of.

There wasn't much software available for the console that truly pushed the system to its limits. There has not been anything HOMEBREW that has even come remotely close. (Including your works CJ) So for people to come in this thread and be self proclaimed experts and shitting on peoples ideas and calling it BS IN A PURELY SPECULATIVE topic...... Well thats BS and not in the spirit of the Jaguar community.

 

Phillip may not be as knowledgeable on what the Jaguars technical capabilities were, but in a purely SPECULATIVE topic, does he really need to be? From what I have observed of Philip he is an artist FIRST.

He does not need to be an expert on the Jaguar hardware in order to make a post about ideas he has had over the years.

Be it music tracks or art or wherever! You dont expect the lead artist of Nintendo to know all the short comings of the switch before he can show off a damn picture do you? No. Nobody is standing in his cubicle with duct tape around his mouth saying "you shut up mfr, until you learn how to code a game that runs 60 fps with zero lag we dont want to hear you or see a single damn picture!"

 

Zerosquare, CJ how has his posts shown anything that can damage the Jaguar scene or confuse people seeking information??? How??? Come on guys get real.

 

And this whole locking threads thing is beyond immature

[Zerosquare]

*sigh*

 

I've been looking into other alternatives past the normal routine the Jaguar was originally designed for...

"I've never even tried to do a stick figure out of modeling clay, but I'm going to carve a masterpiece with a piece of granite and a kitchen fork!"

 

I see a lot of open doors for potential future Jag project, I just need to get the programming and the animation stuff down.

"I know how to make costumes, all I need to release a movie is to figure out that writing, acting and filming stuff!"

 

Seriously, take a look at what you're posting. Nobody with a modicum of talent is going to work with someone who has this attitude. Absolutely nobody.

You need to understand that you're not the victim of mean people who attack you personally; you're a victim of your self-importance.

 

Want this to change? Stop posting walls of text. Stop dreaming of castles in the sky. Start listening to those who've actually done what you're trying to achieve. Start small. Experiment. Release things. Listen to feedback. Improve. Repeat.

Otherwise you'll be among the many people who promise great things for years, and never achieve anything.

[Zerosquare]

From what I have observed of Philip he is an artist FIRST.

Yes. You'll notice I didn't tell him to learn music.

 

You dont expect the lead artist of Nintendo to know all the short comings of the switch before he can show off a damn picture do you?

I'm pretty sure the lead artist has at least some knowledge of what the Switch can and can't do.

I'm pretty sure he doesn't argue with the coders on coding matters.

And I'm pretty sure that he didn't become lead artist by posting on a forum, but by actually drawing.

 

Zerosquare, CJ how has his posts shown anything that can damage the Jaguar scene or confuse people seeking information??? How???

Posting technical things that aren't true is misinformation.

Claiming that things that aren't remotely possible are doable raises unrealistic expectations.

Saying you're going to do great things when you've not even started wastes everybody's time.

 

And this whole locking threads thing is beyond immature

Given that you go into meltdown whenever your work is criticized, you're pretty much not qualified to judge what is immature. Edited October 31, 2018 by Zerosquare