Secretum Labyrinth Dark Castle teaser video

[peteym5]

 

As some may already know, Dark Castles is the latest cartridge game in the Secretum Labyrinth Series for the Atari 8-Bit Computer. New Features include many more screens, new monsters that can damage your hitpoints, poison, steal currency, or steal your you loose experience points. Eight Different Music Tracks done with RMT. Now includes a save game progress feature that requires a disk drive. Five Different Quests with altered screens and items in different locations. New challenges, puzzles, and traps await you along your journey.

 

Requires 64K RAM with XL/XE OS with Ram Available under OS. Will work on 800XL, 1200XL, 65XE, 130XE, XEGS, 600XL with 64K upgrade. Not supporting 400/800. Joystick and Keyboard to play. Available to be announced.

 

Disk Save feature will work with single or enhanced density formatted disk that is dedicated to disk saves. It will overwrite the directory and other material already store on that disk. Does not require DOS to be loaded in first.

 

Cartridge Release is to be Announced.

Edited November 22, 2018 by peteym5

[Gunstar]

I really like all the new features and creatures.

 

I'm a little disappointed that the background/room graphics are still nearly as primitive as the first two. I did notice some rooms with coloring that seems to be attempting some level of perspective for some walls, but still nothing near the way Temple of Apshai Trilogy was done, which I thought I remembered you mentioning you were going to do. Of course that's just a bit of visual candy and if I have to choose between it and all the other features you added, I'll take the latter.

[kiwilove]

I do think your games can look significantly better - if you get a graphics guy or girl involved. In this example you are delivering 2600 graphics on an 8-bit system.

Not everyone is into doing it on a commercial level (ie. requiring payment). Someone will do it - for only a small fee (because of the short amount of time involved - compared with the time spend by the programmer) or just for a free game cart?

And if you get anyone to work with? Give them something to work with - I don't expect you to allocate a lot of memory for the graphics - but there should be ways of incorporating more graphics without taking up too much extra memory? Like using more frames for frequent animation (explosions! and such like). Your character needs enough animation to look alive!

Repetitive backgrounds can look nice if animation was present?

 

With your helicopter and other such games - I think they could look better still.

Enhanced graphics do not make gameplay - but can make the gameplay more enjoyable because it looks so effective and nice!

 

Harvey

Edited November 22, 2018 by kiwilove

[+Allan]

Isn't there anyone here that can help Pete out and do some digital artwork for him?

 

Allan

[peteym5]

First of all I thank you for some feed back. I feel this game is much more advance than the 2600, has many more on screen colors and doing graphics in 40x24 multicolor (antic 4) mode. Uses SUPER-IRG mode that alternates between two fonts to give the illusion of more colors. I did some work on changing the font to make things more detailed. However character set mode screens are has a placement of characters every 4 or 8 pixels. I did some work on the forest area, reducing where font characters are drawn in rows and columns. When you enter the castles, you are surrounded by brick or textured walls, so that would be normal. To use like a graphics 15 mode would require a major overhaul of the whole game and takes much more memory to store each screen. I am preparing to get this game up for sale without too many delays.

 

The game play elements is much more extensive to the point I have trouble recalling everything. Like adding currency and needing to buy stuff. Or have to get a cure for the poison before you die. There is lots of stuff in there that makes it a powerful Role Playing Adventure Game.

[peteym5]

I do think your games can look significantly better - if you get a graphics guy or girl involved. In this example you are delivering 2600 graphics on an 8-bit system.

Not everyone is into doing it on a commercial level (ie. requiring payment). Someone will do it - for only a small fee (because of the short amount of time involved - compared with the time spend by the programmer) or just for a free game cart?

And if you get anyone to work with? Give them something to work with - I don't expect you to allocate a lot of memory for the graphics - but there should be ways of incorporating more graphics without taking up too much extra memory? Like using more frames for frequent animation (explosions! and such like). Your character needs enough animation to look alive!

Repetitive backgrounds can look nice if animation was present?

 

With your helicopter and other such games - I think they could look better still.

Enhanced graphics do not make gameplay - but can make the gameplay more enjoyable because it looks so effective and nice!

 

Harvey

 

I have a graphics guy that does label art, but I have been asking around for some help to edit graphics at the pixel level inside the size of the character or sprite size. I had a music person, but he left because he felt certain members were harassing him. Plus we seen that he untrustworthy.

 

I can say Video61 is honorable when it comes to royalties, so any work someone does for us does get rewarded. How much depends on amount of work done and units sold. This is just one of several games I plan to create using this RPG / Adventure programming. I am looking for someone who can help with the story, layout, and design for more games of this type.

 

I am working an addition to Secretum Labyrinth Dark Castles that can tweak the graphics, draw some alternating patterns with font character graphics.

[kiwilove]

Since you are using the commercial approach - your releases need to have that professional look to them - some of which are hitting the mark - eg. the Tempest games - and others I think not - because their graphics look like that of hobbyist quality. The programming may be first rate - but the graphics designs/animations are not.

 

I do think that - if you're not going the Zelda SNES route - which makes extensive use of graphics in the best possible way - something to aspire to - if you are so inclined to try. Even if you go the minimal route I think something reasonable can still be done? Just by providing the extra frames of animation - and using some extra characters (in the character set) to do so.

 

Some programmers do have the design skill present - in drawing their own graphics - Archer McLean comes to mind, Bill Williams also. International Karate and IK+ do look good - but the ST/Amiga IK+ looked bad to me.

 

Only a small touch here and there can make a difference. With Tempest for example - you can upgrade it - like with more frames of animation - and go for a dramatic death explosion when killed off. A bit of extra colour here and there would help - even if it is momentarily so.

 

Even with repeating - repetitive graphics in this current project - it's still possible for them to look good. No doubt it is too late now - to make any changes to it - as these things need to considered at the start - early stages - that is a decent amount of memory is allocated for the graphics - and not a very bare minimum.

I do wish you every success with your work - and I only want to see it upgraded to a decent graphics level - eventually.

 

Harvey

[jefffulton]

Pete,
I actually think the graphics are fine, in fact some of the characters a really nice. What I would do is slow down the gameplay a bit and leave room for you game to breathe,
There are many multi-colored characters on the screen at the same time, but they are moving really fast and seemingly randomly.
To not make a game look like a 2600 game, you need to never have a character or object simply disappear when touched or hit. You need an simple animation for example.
Your music and sounds are pretty good, but it just needs a little finesse to put it over the top.

I've purchased 3 or 4 of you 8-bit carts and love them, they use great tech. This one is a nice game, but just a little more attention to detail and it might work better.
Here is an example: If there are 4 monsters in a room, have them behind a wall and attack 2 at a time, one from each side, rather than randomly use the chase algorithm. When the player is hit, show it. Stop the monsters and allow the user to see what happened. Maybe have the player teleport back to the door he came from, and start with the room again (without resetting the room). When a monster is killed, have little "poof" animation or a little grave stone appear.

Anyway, these are just suggestions. You put a lot of hard work into your games, and I want to see people excited about them and wiling to pay for your carts.

Cheers,

 

-Jeff

[Lord Thag]

This continues to come along nicely, I'm looking forward to it.

In terms of feedback, I agree the the sprite work could use a little polish (I've run into the same issue myself, I'm a much better coder than an artist). I'd also like to see the enemies be less random. It kinda feels like you just have a few random enemies in each room, rather than each room having an assigned type, and the types behave differently. Think Zelda and similar top down ARPG games. The enemies often give different sections of the map a different feel and/or difficulty level.

That's all cosmetic though. You've added a TON of features and gameplay elements that look like they really expanded the game. Nice!

[FifthPlayer]

Pete,

There are many multi-colored characters on the screen at the same time, but they are moving really fast and seemingly randomly.

To not make a game look like a 2600 game, you need to never have a character or object simply disappear when touched or hit. You need an simple animation for example.

 

 

This. You put your finger on why the game looks like an Atari 2600 game on an 8-bit computer.

 

For me, I'm really put off by the way the main character randomly warps to a different place on the screen whenever he is hit by a monster. Not only is it jarring to me as a player (I have to get accustomed to the hero's new random location), it feels like not a lot of thought went into depicting this onscreen. It's another way the game feels like a 2600 game. A more sophisticated animation would really help here.

Edited November 29, 2018 by FifthPlayer

[peteym5]

Thankyou for your feedback. I decided to spend a few days on doing some cosmetic upgrades. I am trying to apply some techniques I used for other games to make this one look better. Yes, this game does have a ton of new features that the prior Secretum Labyrinth games did not have. I added currency and need to buy items. The Wisdom Idols serve several purposes. If you are touching them and press 'D' You can access the disk menu, that can save or load your game progress to disk. You can get shield/armor and weapon upgrades. There are several magic items that perform a function in the game.

 

However, with adding more things, and adding complexity to the game, more things have to be checked to make sure everything works. I check stuff myself before I send it off to be beta tested or even make an YouTube video. I know how fast even the smallest thing can be nit-picked at. I am working hard on making this into a challenging game for everyone.

Edited November 29, 2018 by peteym5

[Mclaneinc]

I like it but the criticisms are fair re the graphics and for me there one high pitched tune in there that would drive me insane constantly playing on a level (if it does that) but it looks good, as Harvey says, it all just needs a little shine up to take it in to the pro stage but BUT I really like it.

 

Is there a way (yeah I know you want to release it soon) to minimise the flickering characters (wait before you jump here, I've asked about a different thing before) when its only a couple of enemy on screen, I can understand when there's a lot as the main character is quite detailed / uses PMGs (?) as well so keeping them smooth on the same line needs alternate drawing of each but it seems when there's only a couple its the same issue? Does the engine check how many objects are on screen at the same time or just presume to alt draw them?

 

I think that's how it works?

 

Not a massive critique as the game still looks totally playable AND FUN even with some minor flicker at times..

Edited November 29, 2018 by Mclaneinc

[peteym5]

I like it but the criticisms are fair re the graphics and for me there one high pitched tune in there that would drive me insane constantly playing on a level (if it does that) but it looks good, as Harvey says, it all just needs a little shine up to take it in to the pro stage but BUT I really like it.

 

Is there a way (yeah I know you want to release it soon) to minimise the flickering characters (wait before you jump here, I've asked about a different thing before) when its only a couple of enemy on screen, I can understand when there's a lot as the main character is quite detailed / uses PMGs (?) as well so keeping them smooth on the same line needs alternate drawing of each but it seems when there's only a couple its the same issue? Does the engine check how many objects are on screen at the same time or just presume to alt draw them?

 

I think that's how it works?

 

Not a massive critique as the game still looks totally playable AND FUN even with some minor flicker at times..

You can get a weapon, go into the screen and kill those annoying flickering enemies. The program is set up so they do not regenerate for awhile with randomly selecting screens and ones you had not been in recently. This was done to prevent someone from cheating by going between two rooms with easy enemies to build up experience points and money. Forcing them to explore through more screens. Zelda does the same thing.

On many screens, the number of enemies had been limited to 3 or 4 enemies, instead of 5 or 6 as was used for prior Secretum Labyrinth games. A few screens have a single boss enemy. Some enemies are limited to being in certain sections of the screen.

There is also an option to disable the music and you can play with just sound effects.

 

I am experimenting with using images for the background that are made up of several font characters. Like making bigger brings like I did with Animal Keeper.

[peteym5]

To not make a game look like a 2600 game, you need to never have a character or object simply disappear when touched or hit. You need an simple animation for example.

Your music and sounds are pretty good, but it just needs a little finesse to put it over the top.

This. You put your finger on why the game looks like an Atari 2600 game on an 8-bit computer.

 

For me, I'm really put off by the way the main character randomly warps to a different place on the screen whenever he is hit by a monster. Not only is it jarring to me as a player (I have to get accustomed to the hero's new random location), it feels like not a lot of thought went into depicting this onscreen. It's another way the game feels like a 2600 game. A more sophisticated animation would really help here.

Secretum Labyrinth does many animations already. Doors open slow, treasures flash when you get them, weapons swing and spin, monsters burst as they die. Maybe I can do something with items when you collect them.. Just have to see if there is enough room remaining to do anything.

[ivop]

Game looks pretty good if you are into this kind of games, but the music.... or as "emkay" would "say" the "music"...

[pixelmischief]

I'm always excited to see new software on "the ocho" and I thank you for it. However, if I did buy it, it would be in support of the platform and not for the quality of the game. The FIRST thing I thought when I saw it was, "Looks like Raiders of the Lost Ark for the 2600". I don't mean to pile on, but you seem to be resistant to both ideas; that the quality is not up to commercial standards and that you really need to collaborate with some content creators.

[_The Doctor__]

It's a case of, he may be capable, and he may know it could use these things... but, in a contrary nature, if it gets pointed out, like a blue donkey... just digs it's heels in on the principle no one can tell it what to do or make it do something. I'd just walk away until the donkey attitude leaves and he gets up to move forward again.

Edited November 29, 2018 by _The Doctor__

[peteym5]

I am not really sure what kind of animation can be done when an item is collected. Some are drawn with player/missile graphics, some are drawn with screen font characters. When you collect a treasure, it flashes for a few seconds and vanishes. Maybe I can do it for potions and coins. Maybe have the items drawn with player missile graphics fade out or something. However I did a graphics upgrade to help improve the overall look of the game in response to a few comments here. I added the "Animal Keeper" style of bigger bricks to a few screens, and different textures throughout the game. Some screens will have mono-colored walls, many others will be textured, so we are not looking at the same thing through the whole game. Also this does have different quests that changes some of the screens so you need to travel a different path to find things that are in new locations. Makes the game re-playable. You will have to wait until I finish some other work before I make what I hope be a final YouTube video.

Edited November 30, 2018 by peteym5

[peteym5]

Thankyou for your comments. They given me some insight on upgrades for this and possible future Adventure Role Playing Games. I was able to do a simple quick animation when you get a weapon and updating the information at the top of the screen. The game is intended to go onto a 64K Williams Cartridge to keep the price overhead down. It requires 64K of main RAM (800XL, 65&130 XE, XEGS) Other possible cartridges could be 128K XEGS or Atari Max. AtariMax cartridges are more expensive to flash and resale them. The Adventure RPG engine is flexible and is designed to be sent up for different cartridges or extended RAM. I originally had a set up to use Multicolor, Monocolored, on meta missile+player sprites (10 pixel wide.) For Secretum Labyrinth series, I am sticking to multicolored because they look better with more color.

[peteym5]

Isn't there anyone here that can help Pete out and do some digital artwork for him?

 

Allan

 

I am willing to accept help. I can even offer something in return. I have recently sent out a few private emails and PMs to people that also know how the graphics work on the Atari 8-bit. I even started use ICE-EDIT (ICEIRG.ATR) to edit the font in IRG mode to help me see what is going on. I changed some of the font characters to draw some different patterns on some of the screens.

 

For the Music, maybe someone to edit the instrument files. Been looking for something that can sound more like a flute, slow decay tone for some of the songs.

 

I can offer anyone willing to help with graphics or music to also help beta test the game, you do get to play the game in development to see how your files are helping with the game. Most likely you will need to sign a non-disclosure. That basically states you cannot distribute any ROM images, give out personal information of other people working on the project. I won't give out your home address, phone#, or email on here and expect you to have the same respect for others. I do not object if you talk about the game publicly to keep people interested. We know problems are going to found during beta testing and may need to go to public forums for help. After all everyone is trying to have this game release being without any problems.

 

Right now, looks like everything is set for Dark Castles, only making some minor tweaks here and there. There could be future Adventure and Role Playing Games coming from the programming used for the Secretum Labyrinth series. They do take much more labor and time compared to a 16K cartridge game. Also Adventure and RPGs take up more memory, will either need a large bank switching cartridge, extended memory, or whole/multiple floppy disks. I am looking at several stories and ideals for potential future games. Depends on how well one game sales that will influence the next game in the series. In the mean time, I am going to be working on more smaller games

Edited December 30, 2018 by peteym5

[BlueMoon_001]

You are on the right track of making it look great. People will complain about the minor stuff just because it is not free or not putting up for "digital downloads", does not matter what you do. Some will still nitpick even it was a free game. Don't let their bashing get to you. Just read it, and see if you can make improvements, but it is up to you.

 

Now your programming or engine to generate all those screens. How many bytes does it take to store each screen (room)? With bank switching cartridges, you can probably store hundreds of screens. Looks like you added many new features since the first 2 Secretum Labyrinth games, like what is going on with collecting coins, fatigue, ammunition limits, and that other symbol next to potions and hitpoints? Also I remember something about different quests that changes stuff around like the "Adventure" for the 2600.

 

I remember something you expressed interest in making something more Advance Dungeons & Dragons like. Likes like a few things happened here. Anything else going on with that?

[peteym5]

I'm always excited to see new software on "the ocho" and I thank you for it. However, if I did buy it, it would be in support of the platform and not for the quality of the game. The FIRST thing I thought when I saw it was, "Looks like Raiders of the Lost Ark for the 2600". I don't mean to pile on, but you seem to be resistant to both ideas; that the quality is not up to commercial standards and that you really need to collaborate with some content creators.

 

Work on improving the quality of the game is ongoing. My original character sprite did resemble Indiana Jones, had a hat. Can see it in early versions of Kings Gold and the RPG demo. I did not change it because of concerns of copyright infringement, they cannot really come after you over a similar sprite shape, KJMANN12 tried to come in and take over the project and insisted on a few changes. That was right before Video61 and myself separated us from him.

 

I have been busy with my own debug testing on the program. I recently changed many of the screens and edited a few characters in the font to make it look more professional to create more patterns on the walls. When it comes to touching something and disappearing, going into your inventory, many other adventure games just about do the same thing. I did have the items that are represented with a multicolored player/missile sprite quickly shoot up to the top of the screen when you touched them. Since the other items made up of font characters are smaller, I just let those vanish when you touch them, I did not see what I could had done with them.

 

You are on the right track of making it look great. People will complain about the minor stuff just because it is not free or not putting up for "digital downloads", does not matter what you do. Some will still nitpick even it was a free game. Don't let their bashing get to you. Just read it, and see if you can make improvements, but it is up to you.

 

Now your programming or engine to generate all those screens. How many bytes does it take to store each screen (room)? With bank switching cartridges, you can probably store hundreds of screens. Looks like you added many new features since the first 2 Secretum Labyrinth games, like what is going on with collecting coins, fatigue, ammunition limits, and that other symbol next to potions and hitpoints? Also I remember something about different quests that changes stuff around like the "Adventure" for the 2600.

 

I remember something you expressed interest in making something more Advance Dungeons & Dragons like. Likes like a few things happened here. Anything else going on with that?

We agree, bashing will always be a part of what goes on here. I do read posts and did make improvements to this and prior games.

 

Right now, I got to around 40 bytes of "instruction functions" to draw screens and place the enemy characters. Since the cartridges bank switch at 8K at a time, about 200 screens are stored in one bank. The 64K cartridges designated 2 banks, and have over 400 screens. A 128K cartridge probably have 6 to 8, and could get over 1000. I am not going to get into what a 1024k cartridge can do because I will never make a game that big, will take forever to encode and make sure there are no faults in all that data. The original instruction functions are pretty straight forward in that they just have instruction, X, Y position, size, and drawing character. Easy to edit. I am not going to get into what I did to encrypt and compact the data down to a smaller size because that is a trade secret.

[BlueMoon_001]

Like the screen shots in your other thread. I am not sure you are at the point you have a product you can market and expect to sell a lot of cartridges. When you are moving around the "forest" there seem to be too many straight lines of foliage (bushes/trees). I am not sure you have enough memory space to do much more. I did see some improvements between each posted video, like some of the graphics for the forest part did change a little. It just seems like it is still missing something that will make everyone to flock to the Atarisales website and buy one. Anyone else here want to make any suggestions?

 

The Music is top notch for a chiptune, not many programs have even one song playing, it is sounds like you have several. This RMT program must do a lot of stuff.

[Marius]

The Music is top notch for a chiptune, not many programs have even one song playing, it is sounds like you have several. This RMT program must do a lot of stuff.

 

To be honest. I think there is only one person in the entire Atari scene that would qualify this 'music' as top notch.

[peteym5]

To be honest. I think there is only one person in the entire Atari scene that would qualify this 'music' as top notch.

 

The music is fine the way it is, playing without any issues. I chosen the songs that match up with the theme and the game's medieval fantasy setting. I avoided anything hard rock, heavy metal, or anything sound too modern. I am looking into doing more Role Playing Games with this programming with different setting that will have different music and graphics.

 

I have posted and sent out PMs looking for assistance with the RMT music conversion, but never got any response. Since KJMANN left the Atari scene, I had to figure out RMT and how to convert MOD and MIDI files all on my own. Video 61 did offer a few original short songs, but I already made my selections. Plus I have problems converting the MP3 files to Midi to RMT.

 

For now, I have put Secretum Labyrinth Dark Castles aside while I wait for response from some testers. I may do some touch up on the graphics.