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Super XE Game Machine


Philsan

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...even Desert Falcon.

 

No, not Desert Falcon! The guy who did this had a huge problem with the concept of "diagonal scrolling". Interesting game, but eye-twisting nigh to seizure-inducing scrolling ruined any chance it had for being a worthy conversion of a nice game from the 7800.

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No, not Desert Falcon! The guy who did this had a huge problem with the concept of "diagonal scrolling". Interesting game, but eye-twisting nigh to seizure-inducing scrolling ruined any chance it had for being a worthy conversion of a nice game from the 7800.

 

I like Desert Falcon! And Bug Hunt too (for about five minutes per session), for that matter. But Crystal Castles would have made the best pack-in by far. :)

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No, not Desert Falcon! The guy who did this had a huge problem with the concept of "diagonal scrolling". Interesting game, but eye-twisting nigh to seizure-inducing scrolling ruined any chance it had for being a worthy conversion of a nice game from the 7800.

What the heck is going on with the scrolling in that game? BlueMax was buttery smooth.

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  • 1 year later...

Resurrecting an older thread here;

But on the discussion of a 'Super XE', I can never help but think how epic it'd be to just get a motherboard refresh for at least a few of the 8bit models (maybe one of the more common ones, like the 800xl) that bis just a fully created motherboard with sockets for the custom chips, and then with FPGAs for the VBXE, and native Rapidus built in and U1MB.  Basically just a flat motherboard replacement with all the modern upgrades.  This would truly be the Super XE/XL line.  Probably would make for better stability as well, as you wouldn't have to have a bunch of weird wires everywhere, or socket stacks.

 

But as for software development for Rapidus and/or VBXE.  I think I've posted a few times, but if there are any developers, and maybe we should create a poll about this, where community members could vote on particular devs, but I'd be totally willing to buy hardware for developers to write software for the upgrades.  Maybe we can get a Bounty system set up to support upgrades?  But let's do it, the upgrades are still readily available, along with the U1MB, but with the lack of software to use them, not many are buying them.  So let's get a reason for them to be bought!

 

I've started a discussion elsewhere about a possible 'fix' for the non-supporting software for VBXE and Rapidus, and that's basically Emulation.  This thread mentions the Apple IIGS, which VBXE+Rapidus is actually faster then probably 95% of all Apple IIGS out there (only very few of them have gotten accelerators up to the 20mhz range, and from what I've seen, mostly it's down to 14-16mhz).  We are missing the sound card... so if we could get some sort of equivalent sound device (not sure if quad POKEY could do it, but man it'd be cool to try!) But ifwe could emulate the Apple IIGS, that could give us some instant software support too!

 

Just some thoughts.

 

Also;

On 2/5/2019 at 11:31 AM, Stephen said:

What the heck is going on with the scrolling in that game? BlueMax was buttery smooth.

Ha, while I have not tried Desert Falcon on the A8, or even on the 7800, Blue Max really is buttery smooth.  Love the shit out of that game!

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  • 1 year later...
On 1/26/2019 at 3:31 PM, gozar said:

 

Steve Jobs purposely hobbled the IIgs so it didn't overshadow the Mac. The IIgs was in color and had some great sound, he did not want it to be faster than the Mac Plus.

He also made sure half the oscillators in the Ensoniq sound hardware were hobbled by making it a mono output from a stereo sound chip. 

 

If you put Rescue on Fractalus XEGS side by side with the so called NES killer app Super Mario (VERY childish game not suitable for normal people who had already experienced puberty) XEGS may have had a chance, after seeing Super Mario, unlike most yanks, I immediately realised it's not for intelligent mid teen or older humans. A quick and dirty 4mhz mode compatible update to the cartridge ROMs and job done for impressive pack in game for Atari S.XE console (and how can a console called 'sexy' not sell to the mostly now mid-late teens male audience who grew up with VCS then 8bit micros. 

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5 minutes ago, oky2000 said:

He also made sure half the oscillators in the Ensoniq sound hardware were hobbled by making it a mono output from a stereo sound chip. 

My understanding of this was that Apple Music sued them, so they had to hobble it.  You can now get some boards to give you all 4 outputs back;

https://www.reactivemicro.com/product/2soniq-stereo-sound-card-from-manila-gear/

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10 minutes ago, leech said:

My understanding of this was that Apple Music sued them, so they had to hobble it.  You can now get some boards to give you all 4 outputs back;

https://www.reactivemicro.com/product/2soniq-stereo-sound-card-from-manila-gear/

I honestly don't remember what the talk at the time was about this machine's failure, it is 3 decades ago. All I remember is that it was a colour GUI desktop based machine with a nice sound chip and not useless CPU (not quite 68000 performance but hey) that wasn't pushed in any way and made worse than the sum of its components on purpose due to the utterly pathetic monochrome mac as a home/creative/family computer.

 

I only remember the Ensoniq aspect of the II GS because the company was started by none other than VIC-20 and 6581 Sound Interface Designer Bob Yannes after he left MOS Technology :)

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2 hours ago, oky2000 said:

I honestly don't remember what the talk at the time was about this machine's failure, it is 3 decades ago. All I remember is that it was a colour GUI desktop based machine with a nice sound chip and not useless CPU (not quite 68000 performance but hey) that wasn't pushed in any way and made worse than the sum of its components on purpose due to the utterly pathetic monochrome mac as a home/creative/family computer.

 

I only remember the Ensoniq aspect of the II GS because the company was started by none other than VIC-20 and 6581 Sound Interface Designer Bob Yannes after he left MOS Technology :)

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Corps_v_Apple_Computer

1986–1989Edit

In 1986, Apple Computer added MIDI and audio-recording capabilities to its computers, which included putting the advanced Ensoniq 5503 DOC sound chip from famous synthesizer maker Ensoniq into the Apple IIGS computer. In 1989, this led Apple Corps to sue again, claiming violation of the 1981 settlement agreement.[2] The outcome of this litigation effectively ended all forays at the time by Apple Computer into the multimedia field in parallel with the Amiga, and any future advanced built-in musical hardware in the Macintosh line.[citation needed]

 

Oh, that is a bit different than the story I read...

 

Yeah, the fact that the 65c816 can go up to 14mhz...  the IIGS could have been an Epic 16bit computer.  Instead the mac was pushed to drop 8bit compatibility and try to force everyone to rebuy software.  Like all the other companies were doing.  Quite a shame as the IIGS is a very capable machine.

 

Still waiting now for the IIGS enhanced Nox Archaist...

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15 hours ago, oky2000 said:

If you put Rescue on Fractalus XEGS side by side with the so called NES killer app Super Mario (VERY childish game not suitable for normal people who had already experienced puberty) XEGS may have had a chance, after seeing Super Mario, unlike most yanks, I immediately realised it's not for intelligent mid teen or older humans

 

10 hours ago, adam242 said:

 

???

Super Mario Bros. doesn't feature aliens.  Aliens are the defining feature of games for normal, adult people who have already gone through their teen years.  Mario, you see, didn't qualify for that status until 1989, when Super Mario Land introduced aliens into the Mario mythos.

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On the Atari front - I think the problem had always been - support, support, support.

 

It's easier with hindsight.  To notice that Synapse jumped on board early and were noted for their fantastic software.  So why didn't Atari build up a good relationship with them?  Maybe then, Synapse would have held on longer in providing Atari support?  Maybe, maybe not?

 

Like with APX - why didn't APX continue.  I was looking at who could I approach with Hawkquest back in 1989, but I completely forgot about approaching Atari (UK) to see if they were interested or not?

 

Nintendo had a lot of commercial companies keen to cash in on the NES popularity.  Whereas it seemed that only small independent companies showed some interest in Atari.  This can explain the lack of later titles lacking quality for the Ataris.   Those experienced with the Atari hardware had moved onto other platforms or whatever leaving very few people left developing for it.  Explaining the poor scrolling of Desert Falcon.

Tramiel didn't see the point of providing fresh new titles to sell the hardware - that this was what the popular platforms could provide.

 

Harvey

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On 1/22/2022 at 2:57 PM, oky2000 said:

I honestly don't remember what the talk at the time was about this machine's failure, it is 3 decades ago. All I remember is that it was a colour GUI desktop based machine with a nice sound chip and not useless CPU (not quite 68000 performance but hey) that wasn't pushed in any way

Yes, the IIgs was not pushed and exercised like most other micros of the time. A total shame too!

 

On 1/22/2022 at 2:57 PM, oky2000 said:

and made worse than the sum of its components on purpose due to the utterly pathetic monochrome mac as a home/creative/family computer.

The first MAC wasn't a creative/home/family computer. And it was not marketed as such. As far as pathetic? Maybe technically hardware-wise by Amiga/ST standards. But it was a huge success and its firmware lightyears ahead of anything Amiga/ST could ever hope to offer. Superbly elegant all the way around. Had I had the money I would have bought into that ecosphere.

 

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On 1/23/2022 at 7:25 AM, DavidD said:

Super Mario Bros. doesn't feature aliens.  Aliens are the defining feature of games for normal, adult people who have already gone through their teen years.  Mario, you see, didn't qualify for that status until 1989, when Super Mario Land introduced aliens into the Mario mythos.

There was this concept called "The Ewok Effect" that said your enjoyment of the Ewoks depended on which side of age 12 you were when ROTJ came out. 

 

I think there is some truth to this, especially for teenage boys many who develop an aversion to cuteness while in their teen years.   I know when I was a teen, I found super Mario games repulsive and had no desire to play them.  Too happy, too colorful, etc.

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3 hours ago, zzip said:

There was this concept called "The Ewok Effect" that said your enjoyment of the Ewoks depended on which side of age 12 you were when ROTJ came out. 

 

I think there is some truth to this, especially for teenage boys many who develop an aversion to cuteness while in their teen years.   I know when I was a teen, I found super Mario games repulsive and had no desire to play them.  Too happy, too colorful, etc.

Which is weird because the older I get, things like cuteness and color seem to no longer matter in the long run. The main question I end up asking in the end is over whether it is fun and enjoyable. I think this is the C.S. Lewis effect.

Edited by empsolo
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4 minutes ago, empsolo said:

Which is weird because the older I get, things like cuteness and color seem to no longer matter in the long run. The main question I end up asking in the end is over whether it is fun and enjoyable. I think this is the C.S. Lewis effect.

Yeah,  I think it's a teenage phenomenon that maybe lasts into your 20s.   At that age many people become very concerned with what their peers think and don't want to be seen  liking the wrong stuff.

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28 minutes ago, zzip said:

Yeah,  I think it's a teenage phenomenon that maybe lasts into your 20s.   At that age many people become very concerned with what their peers think and don't want to be seen  liking the wrong stuff.

Ha, I always tended to like the 'wrong' stuff... like Sega, when Nintendo had the NES, or the Jaguar, when others were getting the other things out at the time.  or having an ST when the PC started to kill it...

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1 hour ago, leech said:

Ha, I always tended to like the 'wrong' stuff... like Sega, when Nintendo had the NES, or the Jaguar, when others were getting the other things out at the time.  or having an ST when the PC started to kill it...

I had Betamax, and still have an HDDVD player.

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On 1/24/2022 at 10:38 AM, zzip said:

There was this concept called "The Ewok Effect" that said your enjoyment of the Ewoks depended on which side of age 12 you were when ROTJ came out. 

Some further examples of this;

Liking ST:TOS seems to be an age / introduction to Star Trek thing vs Liking TNG more.  Growing up with Atari vs Nintendo being the 'Let's Play Atari' (being generic for Video games no matter the system), which then became 'Let's play Nintendo'.  Even to some extent this happened with 'Computer gaming' vs 'Console Gaming.'  Though a big part of that I suppose is at what point you were introduced to computers.  Like we had the 800xl before we got a Sega Master System.  So a lot of my earlier gaming was done on the Atari 8bit computer, whereas my younger brother (by 3 years) ended up becoming more of a console gamer.  Especially after the last computer he owned had Windows XP on it, and he killed it... :P  Now he mostly just uses a laptop with Linux on it.  Though we do try to game on that too :)

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The original Mac is only slightly less crap than the IBM PC XT. It is the 2nd worst computer of the mid 80s NOT meant to be a home/micro computer. Top is Archimedes, next is Amiga 1000, next 520ST, next Mac mono and then PC. I am talking as an engineer, it is nothing more than a 68000 based ZX81 with somebody else's copied homework (the OS is Xerox design and the mouse even older invention). The original machines running the Xerox PARC stuff in the 70s were more like accelerated Amiga 1000 messing about with animbrushes in Dpaint III....the Mac is a terrible copy of that system just as Windows is a pathetic hacked together x86 wannabee of Mac OS of 84 I guess.

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On 1/29/2022 at 3:05 AM, leech said:

Some further examples of this;

Liking ST:TOS seems to be an age / introduction to Star Trek thing vs Liking TNG more.  Growing up with Atari vs Nintendo being the 'Let's Play Atari' (being generic for Video games no matter the system), which then became 'Let's play Nintendo'.  Even to some extent this happened with 'Computer gaming' vs 'Console Gaming.'  Though a big part of that I suppose is at what point you were introduced to computers.  Like we had the 800xl before we got a Sega Master System.  So a lot of my earlier gaming was done on the Atari 8bit computer, whereas my younger brother (by 3 years) ended up becoming more of a console gamer.  Especially after the last computer he owned had Windows XP on it, and he killed it... :P  Now he mostly just uses a laptop with Linux on it.  Though we do try to game on that too :)

The Ewok Effect can also translate to why Phantom Menace is sooo hated by all but little kids who saw it in the cinema. Ewoks were bad, little kid Darth Vader....erm no thanks George!

 

I like GEM/TOS in hi-res (med res icons needed to be done separately to account for 2:1 ratio of screen area and lo-res icons are wayyyy too big full stop) and in general because with a software blitter loaded as a desk.acc it is actually a nice system to use. I like Kickstart because it allowed me to do 21bit colour photomontage over a shared copy buffer via 3 multitasking programs (the next step up from that was a 50,000 quid Quantel Paintbox). Mac did less for DTP in reality than the revolutionary Atari SLM laser and host computer driven 'Laser engine' and well if you wanted to become a bedroom recording artist you should really have bought the 8 channel software stereo panning controlled Acorn Archimedes. I see no reason for PC XT or Mac mono to exist. It's nothing to do with my age it's a technicality :)

 

 

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The first MAC and PC/XT/AT machines had market-commanding features. MAC had elegant software drawing routines and a remarkably easy to use interface standardized across many applications. PC/XT/AT machines were extraordinarily versatile in what they could do. They had widespread comprehensive support and open-ended designs letting them fit every task.

 

Typically an end-user doesn't care much about the engineering put into a product, as long as it performs. They care even less about a machine's lineage or any superiority in unusual niche tasks. The end-users that do are often small numbered and nowhere near what it takes to establish standards and encourage continued evolution.

 

At any rate, the superior MAC and PC designs rapidly took control of their respective markets and evolved into what we have today. I wouldn't have it any other way.

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, oky2000 said:

The original Mac is only slightly less crap than the IBM PC XT. It is the 2nd worst computer of the mid 80s NOT meant to be a home/micro computer. Top is Archimedes, next is Amiga 1000, next 520ST, next Mac mono and then PC. I am talking as an engineer, it is nothing more than a 68000 based ZX81 with somebody else's copied homework (the OS is Xerox design and the mouse even older invention). The original machines running the Xerox PARC stuff in the 70s were more like accelerated Amiga 1000 messing about with animbrushes in Dpaint III....the Mac is a terrible copy of that system just as Windows is a pathetic hacked together x86 wannabee of Mac OS of 84 I guess.

What I find most entertaining about this post?  macOS (as they are now calling it) 12.x finally added the wonderful feature of 'now you can change the colors of your mouse pointer!' You can literally change the inner color and the outer line of it... that's it.  Whereas Amiga Workbench 1.3 not only had that feature, but you could use 4 different colors. 

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28 minutes ago, Keatah said:

The first MAC and PC/XT/AT machines had market-commanding features. MAC had elegant software drawing routines and a remarkably easy to use interface standardized across many applications. PC/XT/AT machines were extraordinarily versatile in what they could do. They had widespread comprehensive support and open-ended designs letting them fit every task.

 

Typically an end-user doesn't care much about the engineering put into a product, as long as it performs. They care even less about a machine's lineage or any superiority in unusual niche tasks. The end-users that do are often small numbered and nowhere near what it takes to establish standards and encourage continued evolution.

 

At any rate, the superior MAC and PC designs rapidly took control of their respective markets and evolved into what we have today. I wouldn't have it any other way.

 

 

 

What it comes down to is they both were kind of crap in comparison to some of the other platforms.  The problem is the other platforms were ran by companies that were floundering, or just outright controlled by corrupt individuals.  Apple barely survived the 90s.  IBM compatibles survived because 'No one ever got fired for buying IBM' was a thing at one point, and propagated to home use.  The thing that neither of these (PC Compat, Mac) were more than mediocre at was gaming.  As soon as VGA and sound cards came about... well the rest is history.  Atari/Commodore/others just couldn't keep up with the technical improvements that came from the IBM open architecture.  Just think, if the reverse engineering of the IBM BIOS never happened, the computer industry today would be very very different.  No clue if it'd be any better, but it would definitely be different.

 

Now mind you... this is just discussing HOME computer usage.  What about all the other big iron competitors that all basically became consolidated into the x86 (and now more and more ARM)?  I'm talking about SGI, Sun, DEC, etc.  These systems were amazing for the time!  The end of them?  Well the infighting of the various Unix flavors.  Funny enough, now we basically have a few flavors of BSD, and the many distributions of Linux to replace those.  But the real reason we don't see them anymore is because of Linux being a free Unix-like operating system for x86 (commodity hardware), so people no longer had to pay 50k-200k to SGI for a nice workstation...

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