Dragon's Lair is sold out!

[+acadiel]

On 10/3/2022 at 11:05 PM, CLBrown said:

I mean, it just seems SILLY to have done all that work and then have it never be available, at all, to the majority of potential users (that is, anyone who doesn't follow this forum religiously).

 

So...  what's the status? 

 

CLBrown

Um, well - it's not available because it was a licensed work.  And because, copyright and the agreement that Tursi had with the IP holder.  And because the person who has spoken up to take over the work likely hasn't had the cycles to work on it yet.  

As someone who's coordinated community projects (750 Guidry 16K/64K ROM carts were produced and distributed), and helped designed some (UberGROM co-designer),  it's a lot of work for a person.  In my case, @Ksarul stepped up and took over the production and distribution of the ROM carts and works with @arcadeshopper to get them in people's hands.  

 

I agree that there are a handful of very anxious people who want to get ahold of this product, because it's one of the most kick-butt cartridges ever released for this console.  But, you must remain patient.  When @Albert decides to start working on it, he'll say something.  Or, in the odd event that someone else takes it over, re-negotiates all the agreements with the IP holder, and re-tools the programming of the cartridges and gets them made and assembled, then they'll be ready.

 

Be patient.  Rome wasn't built in a day.  

[whoami999ster]

35 minutes ago, acadiel said:

Um, well - it's not available because it was a licensed work.  And because, copyright and the agreement that Tursi had with the IP holder.  And because the person who has spoken up to take over the work likely hasn't had the cycles to work on it yet.  

As someone who's coordinated community projects (750 Guidry 16K/64K ROM carts were produced and distributed), and helped designed some (UberGROM co-designer),  it's a lot of work for a person.  In my case, @Ksarul stepped up and took over the production and distribution of the ROM carts and works with @arcadeshopper to get them in people's hands.  

 

I agree that there are a handful of very anxious people who want to get ahold of this product, because it's one of the most kick-butt cartridges ever released for this console.  But, you must remain patient.  When @Albert decides to start working on it, he'll say something.  Or, in the odd event that someone else takes it over, re-negotiates all the agreements with the IP holder, and re-tools the programming of the cartridges and gets them made and assembled, then they'll be ready.

 

Be patient.  Rome wasn't built in a day.  

... but was destroyed in a day ... LOL

[TPR]

On 10/5/2022 at 10:47 AM, Tursi said:

Why is is silly? It's silly to put in all that work, lose money on the product, have a copy stolen by a begging thief, and then have people tell me that I should keep dealing with it forever. That's what's silly.

 

The majority of potential users got a copy. There have been fewer than a dozen people who came out and said they missed it. Even of the potential users who did get a copy, most just stored them for the collection, they didn't play them. So I could have just printed and sold boxes -- designing PCBs, writing VHDL and pages and pages of assembly code, that's silly.

 

Honestly, printing and selling "what if" boxes for retro systems would probably be a good way to make a few bucks.

 

But the point is, I achieved my goals. I created an impossible, licensed product, thus scratching the itch for myself. I got to sell copies to my friends in the community and give everyone a little "what if" thrill. Those were worthy goals of all the silly.

 

So, forgive the ribbing... to answer your question, there's no status at this time. We aren't doing anything in the background right now.

 

I have said that anyone who wants to handle the licensing, manufacture, and distribution can work with me to get programmed PCBs. Everything else is your problem, and you must have the license FIRST as I will not support unlicensed copies. Thus far, only Albert considered stepping up, because people realize that all that is a LOT OF WORK.

 

 

POST.  OF.  THE.  YEAR!!!

 

 

And my copy has gotten quite a bit of play, thank you very much, Tursi! 

 

(I do hope that @Albert ends up doing a run for those who didn't get one... but still I agree with everything you said!)

[+OLD CS1]

Mine get good amounts of play, as well, especially at VCF.  It does look like that, for the collectors out there, even if @Albert does a new run, our original run will remain unique.

[ColecoGamer]

On 10/5/2022 at 10:53 AM, Albert said:

I am still interested, and I think it'd be a lot of fun to do a TI 99/4A release like this.  The first release on a new system is a lot of work, though!

 

 ..Al

I’d buy a copy! I missed out on the first and only run of the game.

[ColecoGamer]

@Albert Please keep us posted on a possible second run. I want a copy, as I mentioned above! Thank you for offering this opportunity!

[Albert]

On 10/14/2022 at 12:00 PM, ColecoGamer said:

@Albert Please keep us posted on a possible second run. I want a copy, as I mentioned above! Thank you for offering this opportunity!

I will!

[CLBrown]

On 10/5/2022 at 9:47 AM, Tursi said:

Why is is silly? It's silly to put in all that work, lose money on the product, have a copy stolen by a begging thief, and then have people tell me that I should keep dealing with it forever. That's what's silly.

So, someone "stole" your work and put it out there on his or her own?  That sucks, but sadly, it's largely  par for the course, and always has been.  Since the very first published books, no doubt... even the first scrolls... SOMEONE has made copies and distributed them as though they were his own.  It's unavoidable... human nature and all that.

On 10/5/2022 at 9:47 AM, Tursi said:

The majority of potential users got a copy. There have been fewer than a dozen people who came out and said they missed it. Even of the potential users who did get a copy, most just stored them for the collection, they didn't play them. So I could have just printed and sold boxes -- designing PCBs, writing VHDL and pages and pages of assembly code, that's silly.

I dunno, I'm not sure how many users there are in this community.  I mean, I've always loved my TI, but until I started seeing "PixelPedant's" videos on YouTube, I had NO IDEA that this community, right here, even existed.  I'd found the big WH FTP site, and had been slogging through that, incrementally (for a while there, it was impossible to just download the contents of the site via FTP... which renders an FTP site somewhat... illogical?)  I knew of a few other sites.  But he was the one who spread the word that, yes, there was actually NEW STUFF coming out, and people actively involved.  I learned about your Dragon's Lair project from his video, in fact... and that's what first led me to come to this page, way back when.  And at the time, it listed it as "sold out" but there was no indication, at the time, that there would be no further production.  So, I held out some hope.  (sigh)

On 10/5/2022 at 9:47 AM, Tursi said:

Honestly, printing and selling "what if" boxes for retro systems would probably be a good way to make a few bucks.

Not the worst possible choice, I suppose.  I have been incrementally scanning and storing off all my "paper" products, with the knowledge that the paper has a limited remaining lifespan... but digital, potentially, could last forever.  Certainly far longer than >I< will last!

 

But honestly, all I really wanted was the game itself.  The paper stuff is cool... and God, but I miss when software releases came in fold-out boxes with 500-pg manuals (Say, Falcon 4.0?)...  but in the end, it's the cart (or digital equivalent) which I care about.  All the rest is "gravy."

On 10/5/2022 at 9:47 AM, Tursi said:

But the point is, I achieved my goals. I created an impossible, licensed product, thus scratching the itch for myself. I got to sell copies to my friends in the community and give everyone a little "what if" thrill. Those were worthy goals of all the silly.

Well, it's your project, and sure, if you achieved your own goals, nobody else has any right to criticize you over it.  But still...  I suspect you might have sold quite a few more of these... I have no idea how many you DID sell, but certainly at least one more...     had it been more widely, shall we say, "publicized?"

 

As I said, by the time Pixel put out his video, and anyone not active on this forum or on your own page would have been aware of it, your run was already exhausted.   Which is...  disappointing.  (sigh)

On 10/5/2022 at 9:47 AM, Tursi said:

So, forgive the ribbing... to answer your question, there's no status at this time. We aren't doing anything in the background right now.

Oh, no worries.  I certainly understand your point.  I've been working on a project to create a fully realized digital model of the Todd Guenther's U.S.S. Ingram for several years now, and said that I'd make it available, through digital stereolithographic printing, to anyone interested.   And I've had a lot of interest, but too many people pretending that I "owe" them somehow.

 

In case anyone's curious...  this is the current state of the Ingram...  first, interior spaces... 

 

And exterior views...

 

 

 

 

 

 

I've spent several YEARS on this, on and off... with, as you say, the intention to "find out if it can be done," and mainly for my own edification, though I'll be willing to share my final result with some other folks, too.  And no doubt, someone will take my digital file, no matter how well I guard it, and will distribute it as if it were "his own work."  It's, as I said, inevitable.

 

And yet, I'll still have gotten what I wanted out of it, so... 

On 10/5/2022 at 9:47 AM, Tursi said:

I have said that anyone who wants to handle the licensing, manufacture, and distribution can work with me to get programmed PCBs. Everything else is your problem, and you must have the license FIRST as I will not support unlicensed copies. Thus far, only Albert considered stepping up, because people realize that all that is a LOT OF WORK.

Oh, certainly.  The real issue is balancing "work load" to "reward level."  It's not a big deal to do a "lot of work" if it's worth your while... financially and otherwise... to do so.  I'm sure you already weighed all of that.  But then again, you're not having to worry about the potential of a major film studio coming after you, like Todd and I have to on the above project...  and while we know our legal ducks are all in a row, that won't necessarily discourage the newest hire on the Viacom legal team from deciding to see if he or she can make a name for himself by trying to "take us down."  THAT'S an intimidating prospect, certainly... even if you know that you've got all your "I's" dotted and "T's" crossed.  (Todd got sued by Parmaount back in the 1980s, and instead of bowing to them, had them take him to trial with no negotiating first... which was a smart move, as they try to bankrupt targets through that legal wrangling rather than ever let it go to trial... and he won.  So, this design, and all his other designs, are established by law as solely his own property, and I'm using it under his legal authority.)

 

Your situation is a lot different.  And from your first sentence, I get the idea that after all that work, someone just scanned your software image and started distributing it somewhere?  Yeah, I'd be annoyed, too.   But I would still LOVE to get my hands on a copy of this, if you ever find one accidentally in the bottom of  your sock drawer or anything along those lines... OR if someone else makes another run.

 

And I really suspect I'm not alone.  No, you won't be selling 1,000,000 copies.   But probably more than you think.

 

Anyway, just my 2cents.

 

[+acadiel]

On 10/5/2022 at 10:47 AM, Tursi said:

Why is is silly? It's silly to put in all that work, lose money on the product, have a copy stolen by a begging thief, and then have people tell me that I should keep dealing with it forever. That's what's silly.

 

 

Did I miss something?  Is someone selling bootleg copies of your cart?  If so, that really sucks.

[+OLD CS1]

35 minutes ago, CLBrown said:

That sucks, but sadly, it's largely  par for the course, and always has been.  Since the very first published books, no doubt... even the first scrolls... SOMEONE has made copies and distributed them as though they were his own.  It's unavoidable... human nature and all that.

That kind-of makes his point.  The bigger point, I think, is that, without knowing the situation, the "begging thief" part.  I can infer a lot from this, but at a minimum I infer this goes beyond prima facie piracy.

 

44 minutes ago, CLBrown said:

I had NO IDEA that this community, right here, even existed.

Welcome aboard.

 

38 minutes ago, CLBrown said:

I learned about your Dragon's Lair project from his video, in fact... and that's what first led me to come to this page, way back when.  And at the time, it listed it as "sold out" but there was no indication, at the time, that there would be no further production.  So, I held out some hope.  (sigh)

You came late to the party.  It sucks, but it is a fact of life.  Around 155 were made, and I am fairly certain this was more than the community population at the time.  I have missed out on a lot of new things for my classic machines over the years, late to the party but still holding out hope, never to be realized.  @Tursi has noted that this was a project he just wanted to get done and over with and has expressed other feelings about it which make it clear that he will not pick it up again any time soon -- at least not on his own as he would provide some material support for anyone who wants to pick up the mantle and march forth.

 

44 minutes ago, CLBrown said:

I've been working on a project to create a fully realized digital model of the Todd Guenther's U.S.S. Ingram for several years now, and said that I'd make it available, through digital stereolithographic printing, to anyone interested.

All of the tools necessary to create another run of Dragon's Lair or any other similar games, perhaps even M.A.C.H. 3, have been made available.  The assets used to create this run of Dragon's Lair simply cannot be made publicly available to someone unless they obtain a license from Digital Leisure, and even then there is no promise that a license will permit the use of what has already been created.

 

56 minutes ago, CLBrown said:

And no doubt, someone will take my digital file, no matter how well I guard it, and will distribute it as if it were "his own work."  It's, as I said, inevitable.

As I posited previously, the phrasing tells me his situation goes way beyond simple piracy.  As well, it is likely something which will never be made public, for a number of likely reasons including community harmony and accord.  But, as you say, that is just my 2¢-worth (now worth approximately 1.5¢ versus a year ago.)

 

48 minutes ago, CLBrown said:

(Todd got sued by Parmaount back in the 1980s, and instead of bowing to them, had them take him to trial with no negotiating first... which was a smart move, as they try to bankrupt targets through that legal wrangling rather than ever let it go to trial... and he won.  So, this design, and all his other designs, are established by law as solely his own property, and I'm using it under his legal authority.)

Good for him.  It was the right and proper thing for him to do.  I really wish more people would fight these and other legal quagmires out.  In many, many cases the outcomes would be the same as his.  And courts generally do not like big guys using their behemoth leverage against little guys.

 

51 minutes ago, CLBrown said:

No, you won't be selling 1,000,000 copies.   But probably more than you think.

No amount is worth doing something you really loath the prospect of doing.

 

All-in-all, the bottom line here is haranguing Tursi is never going to get another run of Dragon's Lair.  As said several times before, someone is going to have to take it upon themselves to say, "Hey! I am going to make another run of this neat-o game, and I am going to purchase a license for it, and I am going to set up all the of the bits and bobs necessary to produce and distribute it."  Heck, maybe a Kickstarter campaign to cover the costs and line someone up to pay to do it.

 

Many options abound.  One could say, a plethora of options.

 

 

 

[Tursi]

Welcome indeed, @CLBrown! 

 

I'll just randomly address a couple of comments from random people.

 

Pretty much every thread like this includes the phrase "you could have sold a lot more". In fact I'm often told that if I only write this or that, it will get "massive adoption", including commercial. But the reality is that retro communities are small. I sold 155 copies, out of an expected run of 100. That was already 55% more than I had planned on. We're looking at 10-20 more copies based on feedback in the almost 4 years since. This is not to say a new run would be useless. But I would encourage anyone who undertook it to consider the numbers will be smaller, or at least need to be longterm. There will certainly be overlap in people who want both versions, and there will be the new people in there of course, but setting expectations is important to me.

 

I started sharing that the project was coming in 2015 or 2016. There's little I can do that not too many people were interested, and so it didn't spread. In fact as I was working on an /actual/ product, a related thread here in the Coleco community just talking about potential ways to do the video encoding was getting tons more interest and attention. My posts there were ignored. I thought my Youtube video showing an actually playable first level would get people talking, but it didn't. So between the level of disinterest, and the fact that I didn't think I could build more than a hundred of them anyway, I was pretty content to not embark on a massive advertising campaign. Not to be rude, but I didn't /want/ to sell to the people who only cared about the collection, and not about the technology. And I had all the people that cared right here. The fact that AFTER it was done people got interested sort of comes off to me as too bad, I gave plenty of warning.

 

I got the same kind of messaging when I released the first Skunkboard. I only had the resources to build 40 of them, so I sold them on Jaguar Sector to my friends there. I got chewed out here for not advertising it to the larger community. Well, I had no way to satisfy the orders in that first run, so there seemed no point. So I wasn't too surprised to see it again on this one, although I truly tried to meet everyone's demands. In fairness, had I finished it earlier and not run out the license, I had both the means and the willingness to keep going. But I did not have the legal right, and that ended it.

 

The game has not been dumped to my knowledge. If it were, only my own emulator can run it anyway. I waited to see if anyone would, but I don't think anyone even tried. If someone else made the PCBs, I'd probably buy a stack.

 

The stolen copy was the last physical copy I sold. The fellow begged me to reduce the shipping, begged me to lie on the customs form, begged me to reduce the cost (I cut him a break on shipping but refused the customs request and told him it wouldn't be fair to others if I reduced the cost). After I shipped it, he filed a claim with Paypal that it was never shipped (despite having tracking) and that I blocked communication with him (while he was still emailing and talking to me daily). He told me "oh, I bought someone else's copy for less", which sounds like a lie. Paypal wouldn't hear my side of it, claiming that even though I sent the tracking info, I did not provide evidence of shipping. So he got a full refund. I'm not a company, it's a hobby, so I don't have to deal with it. Someone else can do that. I'd rather just make the product anyway. Sales and marketing sucks.

 

Cost is not the issue. The promise of profit will be met with laughter on my side, meaning that promises of huge sales will only fill me with dread. But there really only two issues I don't want to deal with - and they are dealing with getting the license again (though I've asked at least once), and dealing with the public. Presented with the license and a check, I'll program the boards and ship them to anyone. At least as long as my hardware still functions. Send me the empty shells and I'll even assemble the carts (getting empty shells was kind of a thing too, I want nice new ones!) The license is a minor pain cause we're really, really small potatoes, and don't rank high on the attention meter. I think Digital Leisure was crazy generous with the time and attention that they did give me.

 

I lost roughly $9 per copy when all was said and done, still being told that $80 was too much. So /if/ I had sold 1,000,000 copies, I'd have lost nine million dollars. It would also have taken four million hours to program them all. See why numbers don't motivate? 

 

I kind of want to do Time Gal as a follow up. But I don't know who to ask for that one! And I'd more rather work on my own products anyway. I don't have to restrict my own products, I could sell them forever. An original animation to work from would also be pretty awesome. Let's gamify Big Buck Bunny. (Hmmm...?  )

 

But yeah. This isn't my first rodeo by a long shot. I've heard all the arguments before. What was the follow up? Well, for the Skunkboard, we did a second run of 100 which sold out, but I hated the public sales experience so much that I refused to do it again. But I made the same offer to assist with anyone else who wanted to do the sales and marketing. GOAT Games stepped up and after a lengthy process of trying to procure the flash chips we did another 200 pieces, which sold out. I then released everything to public domain, and there have been a few public runs, I suspect there are another 100-200 boards out there, but I no longer have any way of knowing. So yeah. Certainly possible to sell more than you expected... 

 

Dragon's Lair's sales was similar - a fine experience while confined to my friends, a pain when opened wider. Sales takes a level of patience I don't possess.

 

[+OLD CS1]

12 minutes ago, Tursi said:

The stolen copy was the last physical copy I sold. The fellow begged me to reduce the shipping, begged me to lie on the customs form, begged me to reduce the cost (I cut him a break on shipping but refused the customs request and told him it wouldn't be fair to others if I reduced the cost). After I shipped it, he filed a claim with Paypal that it was never shipped (despite having tracking) and that I blocked communication with him (while he was still emailing and talking to me daily). He told me "oh, I bought someone else's copy for less", which sounds like a lie. Paypal wouldn't hear my side of it, claiming that even though I sent the tracking info, I did not provide evidence of shipping. So he got a full refund.

Prime customer for an ass beating.

[digdugnate]

7 hours ago, Tursi said:

 

 

I kind of want to do Time Gal as a follow up. But I don't know who to ask for that one! And I'd more rather work on my own products anyway. I don't have to restrict my own products, I could sell them forever. An original animation to work from would also be pretty awesome. Let's gamify Big Buck Bunny. (Hmmm...?  )

 

But yeah. This isn't my first rodeo by a long shot. I've heard all the arguments before. What was the follow up? Well, for the Skunkboard, we did a second run of 100 which sold out, but I hated the public sales experience so much that I refused to do it again. But I made the same offer to assist with anyone else who wanted to do the sales and marketing. GOAT Games stepped up and after a lengthy process of trying to procure the flash chips we did another 200 pieces, which sold out. I then released everything to public domain, and there have been a few public runs, I suspect there are another 100-200 boards out there, but I no longer have any way of knowing. So yeah. Certainly possible to sell more than you expected... 

 

Dragon's Lair's sales was similar - a fine experience while confined to my friends, a pain when opened wider. Sales takes a level of patience I don't possess.

 

 

Wow, what a saga, Tursi.  Maybe you should make a game based on making that game! Your efforts, as always, are appreciated.

 

Time Gal I think is still owned by Taito.    

[+arcadeshopper]

8 hours ago, OLD CS1 said:

Prime customer for an ass beating.

Yep., this "customer" is banned from my store since it happened. He can just forget about getting anything new from me. 

[Elia Spallanzani fdt]

It is an instructive story. Niche product developers should be able to hire someone to take care of advertising and sales. Margins are low but the intermediary could sell more products, for more platforms.

[Tursi]

7 hours ago, digdugnate said:

 

Wow, what a saga, Tursi.  Maybe you should make a game based on making that game! Your efforts, as always, are appreciated.

 

Time Gal I think is still owned by Taito.    

Does Taito still own Taito? These days one can never be sure.

 

I was actually talking to the current IP holders about Double Dragon, but they eventually decided no.

 

[JB]

1 hour ago, Tursi said:

Does Taito still own Taito? These days one can never be sure.

Division of SquareEnix.

[+dhe]

@Tursi

 

 Second run through of this document:

   https://harmlesslion.com/text/Dragons Lair on the TI-99_4A.pdf

 

 In the end, you used an F18A for testing, not needed in the final version?

  If you didn't end up requiring that hardware, thoughts on what would have been different if you did?

 

 You mention sampling the sound and playing that, what tool(s) did you use to sample and play on the TI?

 

 

[Tursi]

On 10/30/2022 at 4:59 PM, dhe said:

Second run through of this document:

   https://harmlesslion.com/text/Dragons Lair on the TI-99_4A.pdf

 

 In the end, you used an F18A for testing, not needed in the final version?

  If you didn't end up requiring that hardware, thoughts on what would have been different if you did?

 

 You mention sampling the sound and playing that, what tool(s) did you use to sample and play on the TI?

Take a look at the original proof of concept demo. I don't have a video online anymore, but you can run the ROM or look at it in this video around 11:03: https://youtu.be/LOBZ6nf7QlM?t=663

 

See the black speckles? That's caused by updating the color table and the pattern table separately, and a large color change occurring.

 

So, I used the F18A to create an alternate mode. Using the GPU, I could upload both the color and pattern table updates offscreen, then write them together, very very fast. The odds of such a glitch in this mode approach zero. (As in it's still technically possible, but good luck seeing it.) The F18A was never required and it was never a goal, I just really wanted to use it in some way. I didn't have quite enough ROM space for an alternate color palette, but the GPU was always my favorite part.

 

As I got further along, I noticed that one of the reasons for the speckles was a "flip" in color order. IE: on one frame a color was red on black, but on the next frame it was black on red. This is because my converter chooses the foreground color by whichever one has the most pixels (this in turn is intended for software sprites to be drawn on top - if you replace only the foreground color you are guaranteed to affect the fewest number of pixels. I haven't used this yet).

For video I realized that wasn't needed, so I wrote a separate tool, "despeckle", which compared each frame to the previous one. If the colors were swapped between frames for the same byte, it swapped them back. In practice, IIRC, this reported swapping a good 40% of the pixels in the average video - that's really significant. And you can see it in the final result. This video doesn't use the F18A: 

https://youtu.be/QB3oHdSjfCE?t=306

 

If I'd had this earlier, I would have tried to use the F18A in other ways. One thing I thought about a lot was using compression and the F18A's GPU to decompress it in order to get full screen video at the same frame rate. But I didn't have any time to experiment with that.

All audio/video conversion was handled using the video converter toolchain that I released a couple years before. Audio is extracted from the video using ffmpeg, then converted to the correct playback rate using SOX. The playback rate is calculated based on the video data, but is roughly 13khz. It's then converted to volume levels. The conversion is non-linear in order to emphasize softer sounds and try to balance the center-balanced PC audio. This introduces some extra noise, but overall the result is better, IMO. Having some sort of auto levels might have helped in places, but I don't have that knowledge. If we could figure out how to convert the signed audio to positive-only levels cleanly we could get better fidelity, but all my experiments in this area sounded worse.

https://harmlesslion.com/software/vidconvert

 

Edited October 31, 2022 by Tursi

[+dhe]

Thank you for taking the time to explain. I think with the tremendous accomplishments of doing the video, the sound conversations got short changed, it was also a great accomplishment in it's own right.

[CLBrown]

On 10/19/2022 at 8:24 AM, arcadeshopper said:

Yep., this "customer" is banned from my store since it happened. He can just forget about getting anything new from me. 

Ah, and given that I've only seen one person (formerly very active here) who shows as "banned" these days... I think I have a pretty clear idea who's being discussed.

 

Shame, that.

[+OLD CS1]

53 minutes ago, CLBrown said:

Ah, and given that I've only seen one person (formerly very active here) who shows as "banned" these days... I think I have a pretty clear idea who's being discussed.

 

Shame, that.

I would not be so quick to judge.  That the guilty requested a fraudulent customs form indicates someone who lives in a country with import duties on such items.  I have imported thousands of dollars-worth of electronic devices into the US without paying duties, whereas an item valued at $70, after a $20 personal allowance, would have aboot $12 in duties to Canuckistan.  Or, as the CBSA officer put it, "a negligible tax of aboot 12 or 13%."

 

Therefore, I would indict someone else.

[+acadiel]

On 10/19/2022 at 9:24 AM, arcadeshopper said:

Yep., this "customer" is banned from my store since it happened. He can just forget about getting anything new from me. 

Wow... sounds like a crazy customer.  I can't believe they abused Tursi like that... that makes even me (who doesn't ever get angry) pretty upset.

 

[Tursi]

18 hours ago, CLBrown said:

Ah, and given that I've only seen one person (formerly very active here) who shows as "banned" these days... I think I have a pretty clear idea who's being discussed.

 

Very unlikely. I'm not aware that the person was ever on AtariAge.

 

[CLBrown]

On 11/8/2022 at 3:35 AM, Tursi said:

Very unlikely. I'm not aware that the person was ever on AtariAge.

 

Well, I was proceeding from the assumption that "arcadeshopper" was referring to someone also involved here... not an unreasonable assumption.  I have no idea why the person I've noticed "banned" from here was banned, but that's good to know that at least it was not due to him swindling you.

 

I'm, in general, not a fan of "bans" in the first place.  Especially in discussion forums.  I tend to follow the "Tyrion Lannister" quote where this is concerned.   You know...

Quote

"When you tear out a man's tongue, you are not proving him a liar, you're only telling the world that you fear what he might say."

So, "bans" in general make me uncomfortable.  When I end up in a discussion somewhere, and someone is getting really out-of-line, I actually prefer leaving everything they wrote up, for everyone to see.   Truly bad behavior is its own "reward."  And unofficial ostracization is far, far more effective than "official" ostracization could ever be.

 

But that's just me... your mileage may vary.  :)