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Opcode ColecoVision wishlist....


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On 11/17/2019 at 9:59 AM, opcode said:

 


I was just surprised that during their first presentation they talked about sprite specs, thousands of sprites in screen, and that is why I was expecting something more retro inspired in terms of hardware.
But from the screenshots it seems to me they are using some generic 3D chipset with no dedicated sprite generator. Sort of misleading.

Anyways, I don’t think it would be a good idea to go to the Intellivision forum to discuss this. Any negative comment coming from me would sound self-serving, but my humble opinion is that I would be very surprised if they pull this off. As software for an existing platform or as a service, maybe. But requiring a new platform, I just don’t see how it can work. Comparing to Wii is a stretch, as is comparing their controller to the Wiimote. There is no recognizable brand involved. People want familiar nowadays.

That is the nice about hobby. You can just do what you love and believe in, no pressure. As long as you can sell enough to pay for all the costs involved, that is good enough. :)


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To be clear... I wasn't misleading at all.  I've always said 2D & 2.5D from the beginning... it's just that some folks out there don't understand what 2.5D is so they misquote or misunderstood what I said.  

I believe you are basing too much of your opinion of us on "brand recognition".  I understand and respect that most folks like yourself who are building retro machines (which I love!) based on passion, etc. typically have very little marketing dollars... if any.  So I completely understand coming from your perspective why you would think that way.  But that isn't us.  Please understand that brand recognition doesn't matter what you have an $11M marketing budget for North America.  This isn't a side garage project or "hobby" to us.  There are currently over 300 people working on the system and we have real retail purchase orders for all of the top retailers.  Hope this helps you to better understand the differences in what we are doing and I hope that your project is a huge success.  You'll never hear me saying "I don't think you'll pull it off."    :)

 

I have a publishing/licensing question.  You showed Moon Patrol.  I'm wondering how the licensing on your system works.  For example, if someone has the ability to play Moon Patrol on your machine, how do the folks at IREM (who own Moon Patrol) get paid?  

p.s.  Looking forward to "surprising" you and "pulling it off".  :)

Edited by Tommy Tallarico
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On 11/16/2019 at 7:12 PM, opcode said:

 It will involve sending me a particular original CV cartridge that isn't working properly and that requires fixing. I will then fix the cartridge and send it back to you. Luckily you will be able to play your beloved pack-in again.

 

 

I thought that method would work. Glad you found your way with this :)

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20 minutes ago, Tommy Tallarico said:


To be clear... I wasn't misleading at all.  I've always said 2D & 2.5D from the beginning... it's just that some folks out there don't understand what 2.5D is so they misquote or misunderstood what I said.  

I believe you are basing too much of your opinion of us on "brand recognition".  I understand and respect that most folks like yourself who are building retro machines (which I love!) based on passion, etc. typically have very little marketing dollars... if any.  So I completely understand coming from your perspective why you would think that way.  But that isn't us.  Please understand that brand recognition doesn't matter what you have an $11M marketing budget for North America.  This isn't a side garage project or "hobby" to us.  There are currently over 300 people working on the system and we have real retail purchase orders for all of the top retailers.  Hope this helps you to better understand the differences in what we are doing and I hope that your project is a huge success.  You'll never hear me saying "I don't think you'll pull it off."    :)

 

I have a publishing/licensing question.  You showed Moon Patrol.  I'm wondering how the licensing on your system works.  For example, if someone has the ability to play Moon Patrol on your machine, how do the folks at IREM (who own Moon Patrol) get paid?  

p.s.  Looking forward to "surprising" you and "pulling it off".  :)

 

Tommy.

 

You seem to worry too much about my opinion, which doesn't go beyond this forum, and surely isn't going to put the smallest dent on your $11M marketing budget. But I believe I am also entitled to an opinion. I gave my opinion as a retro gaming fan, Amico isn't for me. As for me, there is indeed a distinct possibility that OMNI may never happen. And if it does happen, my audience would be a few hundred hardcore retro gaming fans here. I am not your competitor, you shouldn't waste your time treating me as such. I am just a fan that likes to make things happen, and if you check my profile you will see that I have been around since way before retro gaming was a hot thing...

 

Now, if you want to help me with licensing, that would be very much appreciated. Perhaps your fans here would appreciate that as well. I of course don't mind paying.

 

Ed

 

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50 minutes ago, Tommy Tallarico said:


To be clear... I wasn't misleading at all.  I've always said 2D & 2.5D from the beginning... it's just that some folks out there don't understand what 2.5D is so they misquote or misunderstood what I said.  

I believe you are basing too much of your opinion of us on "brand recognition".  I understand and respect that most folks like yourself who are building retro machines (which I love!) based on passion, etc. typically have very little marketing dollars... if any.  So I completely understand coming from your perspective why you would think that way.  But that isn't us.  Please understand that brand recognition doesn't matter what you have an $11M marketing budget for North America.  This isn't a side garage project or "hobby" to us.  There are currently over 300 people working on the system and we have real retail purchase orders for all of the top retailers.  Hope this helps you to better understand the differences in what we are doing and I hope that your project is a huge success.  You'll never hear me saying "I don't think you'll pull it off."    :)

 

I have a publishing/licensing question.  You showed Moon Patrol.  I'm wondering how the licensing on your system works.  For example, if someone has the ability to play Moon Patrol on your machine, how do the folks at IREM (who own Moon Patrol) get paid?  

p.s.  Looking forward to "surprising" you and "pulling it off".  :)

And btw, I wasn't insinuating that you were trying to mislead people. I just said that from your initial presentation, I assume your hardware was going to be some sort of retro inspired hardware because you were talking about sprites and in fact I remember seeing a spec sheet with sprites mentioned. From the screenshots I saw recently that does't seem to be the case. For me that was a surprise, and the reason why I posted.

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From zdnet... 

 

Quote

Perhaps the most controversial element of the console's direction is to optimize almost exclusively for 2D games. The company says it has developed the world's most advanced 2D gaming chip, one that can handle a million or more sprites on the screen.

 

https://www.zdnet.com/article/the-new-intellivision-amico-console-aims-to-revive-family-videogames/

 

And I assumed NeoGeo like graphics for some reason... Anyways, you don't have to worry about me.

 

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Changing subject to a more pleasant topic, for those contacting me about the boxes, i will start replying back tomorrow with all the details. So if you haven’t got a response, no need to worry. We haven’t reached 50 people quota yet.

For those getting the boxes, you are also invited to participate on something else. More info to come. :)




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17 minutes ago, opcode said:

Changing subject to a more pleasant topic, for those contacting me about the boxes, i will start replying back tomorrow with all the details. So if you haven’t got a response, no need to worry. We haven’t reached 50 people quota yet.

For those getting the boxes, you are also invited to participate on something else. More info to come. :)




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ok cool, I was getting worried I hadn't heard anything, and with how my email has been lately I certainly didn't want to not get in on this!! I emailed last night about a box, so thank you for the updates Eduardo!

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7 hours ago, opcode said:

 

Tommy.

 

You seem to worry too much about my opinion, which doesn't go beyond this forum, and surely isn't going to put the smallest dent on your $11M marketing budget. But I believe I am also entitled to an opinion. I gave my opinion as a retro gaming fan, Amico isn't for me. As for me, there is indeed a distinct possibility that OMNI may never happen. And if it does happen, my audience would be a few hundred hardcore retro gaming fans here. I am not your competitor, you shouldn't waste your time treating me as such. I am just a fan that likes to make things happen, and if you check my profile you will see that I have been around since way before retro gaming was a hot thing...

 

Now, if you want to help me with licensing, that would be very much appreciated. Perhaps your fans here would appreciate that as well. I of course don't mind paying.

 

Ed

 


Oh god...

Please go back and read my post as non-confrontational.  You have wrongly assumed that I am someone attacking you or your opinion.  I wasn't.  I was merely giving you more information based on your comments.  That is all.

No... believe me... I don't worry about your opinion... but I'm a member of this community as well and there is nothing wrong with me giving you more information about what we're doing and why we are not relying on our brand name to sell consoles.  Simple concept... was just relaying it to you and now you've taken it the wrong way (which I understand is typical on message boards).  This is exactly why I praised what you were doing and why I put as many smiley faces as I could. 

I'm really not sure why you believe that I think you're my competitor???  Nothing in my response gives that impression.  And if it did... I apologize.  But after re-reading it again... I think that is something you wrongly assumed as I don't find anything in there what-so-ever that suggested that I think you are competition in any way (which of course... I don't.).  So lets not have drama where there is none.

So don't take anything I said as being confrontational to you.  It wasn't meant that way. 

Although I personally find it interesting that would say that Amico isn't for you when you've never actually seen it or played it.  Especially from someone who clearly loves retro games.  But hey... like you said... your opinion and you're certainly entitled to not liking something before you have a chance to play it.


In regards to helping you with licensing.  Sure.  I have no problem in doing that.  I can easily pass you on to all of the original IP owners of games if you'd like.  Just tell me who you are looking to get a hold of and I can pass along the proper contact information.  Typically... licensing original IP's are around $10,000 - $20,000 (plus royalties) for some of the average to bigger known titles.  Lesser known games can sometimes be licensed for $5,000 depending on the company.   That is why I was asking you the initial question.  I was just asking out of curiosity... and yes... if you need any kind of help... I'm more than happy to provide you and anyone in the community the proper connections.

In regards to the sprite spec sheet... that was a bogus document that someone twisted on ResetEra in order to cause controversy and click-bait.

You can view all of our specs at our website:  www.IntellivisionAmico.com

Again... please let me know if you would like assistance in getting to the proper folks to obtain licenses and once again... chill on the "competitor" and confrontational stuff.  Was not my intention so please don't take it like that.  This is one of the issues of comunication through the internet.... I get it.  Hard to understand peoples intentions sometimes.  No worries.  Lets move on!

I hope you have massive success!

 

 

Edited by Tommy Tallarico
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6 hours ago, Tommy Tallarico said:

Although I personally find it interesting that would say that Amico isn't for you when you've never actually seen it or played it.  Especially from someone who clearly loves retro games.  But hey... like you said... your opinion and you're certainly entitled to not liking something before you have a chance to play it.

Your definition of "retro games" clearly differs from ours. What you're offering with the Amico is "retro-inspired" games. Nothing wrong with that, of course, and the Amico is clearly meant to cater to today's families as it should (because today's kids like flashy modern graphics) but the folks around these forums generally have a more strict definition of "retro-gaming", which begins with the look and feel (8-bit or 16-bit), and also involves working with decades-old hardware limitations (especially where homebrewing on old consoles is concerned).

 

Best of luck to you.  :) 

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10 hours ago, Tommy Tallarico said:

Although I personally find it interesting that would say that Amico isn't for you when you've never actually seen it or played it.  Especially from someone who clearly loves retro games.  But hey... like you said... your opinion and you're certainly entitled to not liking something before you have a chance to play it.

 

As Pixelboy indicated I was turned off by polygon graphics. I was expecting NeoGeo+ sort of hardware, planes and sprites. 3D just puts me off, I don't like the aesthetics. Also as Pixelboy indicated, some of us here operates in old terms, not just the look and feel, but also actual hardware limitations. OMNI for example has limitations, it can produce 2 planes, 64 sprites, etc. I must navigate through that. That is the fun part. When I play a SNES game, half of the beauty is the gameplay itself, half of the beauty is what the developer managed to extract from the hardware. Let's say, Axelay, that is quite a technical feat, and that makes the game more impressive.

 

Quote


In regards to helping you with licensing.  Sure.  I have no problem in doing that.  I can easily pass you on to all of the original IP owners of games if you'd like.  Just tell me who you are looking to get a hold of and I can pass along the proper contact information.  Typically... licensing original IP's are around $10,000 - $20,000 (plus royalties) for some of the average to bigger known titles.  Lesser known games can sometimes be licensed for $5,000 depending on the company.   That is why I was asking you the initial question.  I was just asking out of curiosity... and yes... if you need any kind of help... I'm more than happy to provide you and anyone in the community the proper connections.
 

 

Any kind of help? Ok, how about being my angel investor and paying those fees. :P Let me explain to you. 

1) I have tried to get licenses many times. 90% of the time I get radio license silence. 10% I get "no". I don't get proposals, I don't get information, I get "no, not available".

2) I don't know if you have any idea about the usual sales number for ColecoVision homebrew titles. 80% of my games can't cross the 100 copies barrier. A couple of them crossed the 200 copies mark. Now of course there are manufacturing costs. Packaging can be very expensive, particularly in such low volumes (and if you have seen my Super Game Module packaging for example, you know it is like nothing in the homebrew field). Then you divide the numbers you just gave me by the numbers I just gave you and yeah.... I don't think many ColecoVision fans can afford a $100+ game. Best route is just change name, graphics and other elements and create a clone. Reality of this hobby, Tommy... Unless of course you want to be my angel investor.. Think about the benefits, the whole AtariAge community would love you, many would buy Amico. I see that as a great use of your $11M marketing budget. :D 

 

[EDIT]: Not trying to be sarcastic or anything. Dead serious. I am open to talk. :)

 

[EDIT 2]: my wife got really upset about my response to you. So just to clarify, I was just trying to lighten up. My sense of humor may seem a little acid sometimes. And my answers tend to be a little dry as many here know. That said, I didn't mean to sound rude or sarcastic or anything. In fact I appreciated your offer for help. I was just being shameless and taking the chance to try to get an investor. I bet you have better things to invest on, but hey, I could n't resist. Seriously, no bad blood here. Game on, Tommy! :)

 

But thanks anyway. All the best with Amico.

 

 

15972660_1761304880749051_1504423357889720670_o.jpg

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I find one simple solution to the licensing issue: Don't release games using other companies' intellectual rights. If you are making ports and clones, add some variation in looks, level designs, obviously game title and logos. Several parties already release look-alike games and your customers probably wouldn't mind too much if they get mostly the same type of gameplay but with a few twists and differences that sets it apart from the original game. Most of those old titles are mostly forgotten by everyone outside of the die-hard gamers/collectors circles anyway so it would be throwing away money for nothing, alternatively risking C&D letters and worse along the way.

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Tommy, I have to be honest, I was originally interested in Amico because I liked the way you wanted it to be the "family" system.  But coming here and basically attacking Eduardo (yes I tried to read your responses as non confrontational, but I still felt like it was condescending) does nothing but cause conflict in our retro community and has soured me personally on giving Amico any further consideration (not that it matters I guess). The mere fact you brought up licensing (not going to get into that)  tells me there is animosity or at least some negative feelings.  We are a small niche of a small crowd.  OMNI may sell a few hundred units, if it happens, in a market that people will probably not want to buy every single game.  So like Eduardo said, there may be a game where there is 100 sold.  I am at a loss as to why you felt the need to even respond since anyone can view your systems specs and there is no chance anyone here, whether for or against your system, will impact sales or reputation.

 

I personally like old tech and seeing how people can further push the limits of the tech, it just is appealing to me.  I think with people "homebrewing" new systems helps keep the scene alive and draws more interest in it.  Coming in and swooping down with your 11 million dollar marketing budget bs feels dramatic to me.  This scene already has had enough drama from the Chameleon debacle to a NJ rapper gone rogue with a brand name, we don't want or need anymore.

 

Eduardo has and will continue to have our support with these projects, your goals are much bigger than this arena, maybe stick to what you are good at.  My opinion only.

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3 hours ago, lawdawg710 said:

But coming here and basically attacking Eduardo (yes I tried to read your responses as non confrontational, but I still felt like it was condescending) does nothing but cause conflict in our retro community and has soured me personally on giving Amico any further consideration (not that it matters I guess). The mere fact you brought up licensing (not going to get into that)  tells me there is animosity or at least some negative feelings

Hmmm... Just reading his comments, I can deduce that Tommy comes from a different place where gaming is concerned, and he has a different business philosophy (and a different approach to getting things done) than the homebrewers who hang around here. Associating his words to condescendance seems to me somewhat uncalled for.

 

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I believe all that needed to be said on this matter has been said. Anything else will just add to the drama, and god knows we don’t need more. May I suggest we go back to our regular programming. :)


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1 hour ago, Pixelboy said:

Hmmm... Just reading his comments, I can deduce that Tommy comes from a different place where gaming is concerned, and he has a different business philosophy (and a different approach to getting things done) than the homebrewers who hang around here. Associating his words to condescendance seems to me somewhat uncalled for.

 

This is why I stated that is how "I" took it.  Different people have different views!

 

And yes Eduardo is right, all that needs to be said has been!!

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On 11/6/2019 at 7:15 PM, opcode said:

 


I don’t think that is how it works, unless you adjust your CRT to compress the image. Dot clock is 5.37Mhz on the TMS. A square pixel requires a dot clock of 6.14Mhz. I know that because OMNI uses that clock and we played with a number of clocks including 5.37. So pixel in a real TMS is indeed wider than taller.

So F18A suffers from the fact it started as a VGA compatible device. Unless that changed with the new HDMI version and I am not aware of.


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I like the technical explanation.  I noticed the narrow aspect ratio with the f18a immediately.  To me it looks like they padded the 256 horisontal resolution with blank pixels to get to 320/640.  Effectively narrowing the aspect ratio to 80% original on a 4:3 display.  It kind of helps the way coleco dk looks.  If you let a widescreen TV stretch it out than the aspect ratio is only off by about 9%.

 

On 11/17/2019 at 12:45 PM, ZilogZ80 said:

Not interested in MAME(hate all the hassle of going from PC to CRT) i dont have the time or money to wire a arcade cabinet..

...

Raspberry Pi has native composite output.  It doesn't run current versions of Mame but the Mame it does have does play the arcade machines of the 1980s.

 

On 11/19/2019 at 3:25 PM, Swami said:

Yeah, boy did I get it when I said I didn't like the original intellivision controller's side buttons.

Most intellivision owners would complain that the side buttons are too stiff.

 

On 11/17/2019 at 11:07 PM, Loafer said:

Yeah I don’t recommend going to that thread to debate their business model I just meant to more or less get a better idea on what they are trying to do.  All good 

Questioning the Amico market has been discussed in the other thread and all over the internet.  The 2D/3D confusion has been discussed there as well.  Amico hardware was originally described as a modern 2D system.  I assumed the thousands of sprites would be software based.  Any modern computer can handle lots of software sprites. 

 

The retro titles were always described as "reimagined" with modern graphics and sounds, and new exclusive gameplay (e.g. multiplayer).  [It's been said that gane proposals with pixel graphics are rejected.]  When their marketing begins next year I'm not sure how much retro titles might even be mentioned. 

 

If someone has new concerns, they should be welcome in the other thread.

 

----------------

On topic; I know the focus here is on z80 based games but how about translating a 6502 game.  Here's an example of a project where the code was translated to a different cpu.  The colecovision roller controller could use a missile command.  Maybe there's a better 6502 example.

 

 

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----------------
On topic; I know the focus here is on z80 based games but how about translating a 6502 game.  Here's an example of a project where the code was translated to a different cpu.  The colecovision roller controller could use a missile command.  Maybe there's a better 6502 example.
 



Actually it is being done, Castlevania. :)



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3 hours ago, opcode said:

 

 


Actually it is being done, Castlevania. :)



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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vampire_Killer

 

EDIT: your port covered here http://retrogamingmagazine.com/2017/03/18/castlevania-coming-to-colecovision-retro-console/

Not sure how much is still the MSX2 version vs porting the NES content etc....

 

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17 minutes ago, phoenixdownita said:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vampire_Killer

 

EDIT: your port covered here http://retrogamingmagazine.com/2017/03/18/castlevania-coming-to-colecovision-retro-console/

Not sure how much is still the MSX2 version vs porting the NES content etc....

 

 

The SGM2 version is based on the NES version. MSX2 version is quite different in many ways.

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9 hours ago, mr_me said:

I noticed the narrow aspect ratio with the f18a immediately.  To me it looks like they padded the 256 horisontal resolution with blank pixels to get to 320/640.  Effectively narrowing the aspect ratio to 80% original on a 4:3 display.  It kind of helps the way coleco dk looks.  If you let a widescreen TV stretch it out than the aspect ratio is only off by about 9%.

My understanding is that the F18A takes the original 256×192 (4:3) image and pixel-doubles it to 512×384 (4:3), and then centres this in the 640×480 (4:3) resolution area.  This preserves the original 4:3 aspect ratio throughout.

 

I certainly don't see a "narrow aspect ratio" from the F18A on my monitor (Dell U2410) whether it is set to display 1:1 (no scaling) or aspect (where it enlarges the image to fill the vertical height of the screen while preserving the input 4:3 aspect ratio).  In fact taking measurements of the screen displayed with the display set to 1:1 it is exactly 4:3.

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47 minutes ago, Ikrananka said:

My understanding is that the F18A takes the original 256×192 (4:3) image and pixel-doubles it to 512×384 (4:3), and then centres this in the 640×480 (4:3) resolution area.  This preserves the original 4:3 aspect ratio throughout.

 

I certainly don't see a "narrow aspect ratio" from the F18A on my monitor (Dell U2410) whether it is set to display 1:1 (no scaling) or aspect (where it enlarges the image to fill the vertical height of the screen while preserving the input 4:3 aspect ratio).  In fact taking measurements of the screen displayed with the display set to 1:1 it is exactly 4:3.

Something to do with this.

 

 

 

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16 hours ago, mr_me said:

I know the focus here is on z80 based games but how about translating a 6502 game.  Here's an example of a project where the code was translated to a different cpu.  The colecovision roller controller could use a missile command.  Maybe there's a better 6502 example.

Some of the guys in the Atari 8-bit computers section have been translating several ZX Spectrum games to the Atari, instruction by instruction. They have even published some of their tools used to convert a Z80 binary to 6502, though a good deal of hand work obviously is required to get a playable game. Here we suddenly are talking about the opposite direction, going from 6502 to Z80. If ports are desired, Opcode and rest of the Colecovision community already are more than aware of the entire MSX library, plus of course the ZX library, even the Amstrad CPC library might partially be within reach though the latter two use different types of graphics hardware so even though the CPU is the same doesn't mean it would be a shorter path.

 

Speaking of which, I think there is a healthy set of new MSX games being developed just like there is a healthy set of new Colecovision games being developed. Instead of porting 30-40 years old copyrighted stuff, perhaps deals can be made with current developers to have their new games ported over, unless that route already has been tested of course. Same goes with the ZX or for that matter C64 communities which are growing each day, though again bigger differences in hardware capacities. I don't know about the OMNI if it has a superset of the VDP enough to fully cover e.g. the VIC-II graphics capacities.

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10 hours ago, Ikrananka said:

My understanding is that the F18A takes the original 256×192 (4:3) image and pixel-doubles it to 512×384 (4:3), and then centres this in the 640×480 (4:3) resolution area.  This preserves the original 4:3 aspect ratio throughout.

 

I certainly don't see a "narrow aspect ratio" from the F18A on my monitor (Dell U2410) whether it is set to display 1:1 (no scaling) or aspect (where it enlarges the image to fill the vertical height of the screen while preserving the input 4:3 aspect ratio).  In fact taking measurements of the screen displayed with the display set to 1:1 it is exactly 4:3.

A standard colecovision has larger top/bottom borders than side borders; so its aspect ratio is actually greater than 4:3.  If you are measuring 4:3 than it shows narrowing.  The numbers I posted earlier are off; it's probably more like 89% with f18a and 118% when stretched on a widescreen display.  Like I said it still improves the look of coleco donkey kong, and that's what I first noticed.

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