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Desoldering woes with a Hakko FR-301


seastalker

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I've done some soldering but wanted to get into some desoldering work, particularly to re-cap some consoles of mine.  Earlier in the year I bought a Hakko FR-301, hoping to make life easier after butchering some dead VCR boards as practice without one.  I fired it up to retrieve some ICs on a dead C64, as well as to practice capacitor removal.  First few ICs and caps were a breeze and my investment seemed to be worthwhile.  On the same board, just a few chips later, the task is getting harder, and the vacuum seems no longer there.  Using the same small circular movements, all that happens it seems is just making the solder joints shinier. The solder melts from the heat, but the vacuum doesn't such anything out. The thing is brand new and a well respected brand no less, so I assume it is my learning curve.  I looked up videos of how to clean it out and did so, but can't imagine a brand new desoldering gun would need it after under an hour of use.  

 

I have several cap kits waiting to go, but I don't want to attempt anything until this is first resolved.  Any tips and tricks that might help? Thank you all!

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You do need to clean it occasionally.  If you bought it as a kit, it should come with a wire to clean out the heating element part.  The solder canister also needs to be removed and cleaned often.  It has rubber pieces on both ends, so you can pull them off and clean out the tube piece.  The metal solder dish in the back may need to be scraped clean.  It also has a filter on the back side that the vacuum pulls through.  Once that turns from white to grey/whatever, you'll have to replace it.

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You need to replace the ceramic fiber filter at the back end of the canister. They do fill up with with bits of solder and vapor depositions from flux and are a wear item. Buy a 10-pack of spares and if you get down to your last 2-3 filters, buy more. :) 

 

 

IMG_0316.JPG

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7 minutes ago, seastalker said:

DrVenkMan, Please don't fault me for thinking that was a tasty mini-quiche with a pearl of solder as a garnish.

:) 

This is what the original filter in my FR301 looked like after I removed all 16 DRAM chips and all 7 of the custom Atari ICs from a 130XE donor board. ? 

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On 12/8/2019 at 3:08 PM, seastalker said:

I've done some soldering but wanted to get into some desoldering work, particularly to re-cap some consoles of mine.  Earlier in the year I bought a Hakko FR-301, hoping to make life easier after butchering some dead VCR boards as practice without one.  I fired it up to retrieve some ICs on a dead C64, as well as to practice capacitor removal.  First few ICs and caps were a breeze and my investment seemed to be worthwhile.  On the same board, just a few chips later, the task is getting harder, and the vacuum seems no longer there.  Using the same small circular movements, all that happens it seems is just making the solder joints shinier. The solder melts from the heat, but the vacuum doesn't such anything out. The thing is brand new and a well respected brand no less, so I assume it is my learning curve.  I looked up videos of how to clean it out and did so, but can't imagine a brand new desoldering gun would need it after under an hour of use.  

 

I have several cap kits waiting to go, but I don't want to attempt anything until this is first resolved.  Any tips and tricks that might help? Thank you all!

You need to constantly be cleaning that freaking thing.

Nozzle size is a big factor in clogging, another is filter replacement.

One key thing is to hold the trigger for a few seconds after sucking a few blobs (that sounds weird)

I usually tilted it backwards to hopefully get gravity to somewhat assist.

 

If you need another sucker use this. <<this is not like the basic mechanical de-soldering pumps. It's malleable tip allows much better suction.

Actually, that tool IMO is much better than the FR-300 (I dunno about the 301).

Really, I am convinced they made the FR-300 crappy just to sell more of their 20$ tips.

Typically I would use the FR for huge blobs and something else for smaller pins (like PDIP40).

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I have that same Engineer solder sucker and while it's light-years better than the $6 blue aluminum and plastic solder suckers you can find all over eBay and Amazon, and while it is great for clearing a single via or removing a component leg now and then, when you need to remove a 16-pin, 28-pin or 40-pin IC on a fragile board without damage, there's nothing like a Hakko in the hands of someone who knows how to use it. ;) 

 

(1 dead 16-pin DRAM chip, 2 maybe/questionable 16-pin 74-series logic chips and 28-pin PLA chip all removed, socketed and replaced with no damage from a POS shit-tastic quality C64 board this past summer). 

 

 

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You can also remove the ceramic filter layers...so I've found I can get a little more life from the filters by remove a few layers and getting a cleaner part of the filter. Combine it with another and I can extend the life of the use out of a filter.

 

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Thank you all for the tips and tricks.  As you know, these things aren't inexpensive, so when losing suction on my FIRST C64 board after about 12 chips, I panicked that I had a lemon.  I know service and cleaning were par for the course, but with no frame of reference, I thought that was WAY too soon to of an interruption to my fun.  I tried poking the rod through to clean it and dump the canister contents before my original post. I will try to clean every part that needs it, and I see I will have to order more filters just to keep work flow going.  Those blue $6 solder suckers I can't stand unless I have nothing else.  The spring and backing pop out from a crappy locking design and I tape it to keep it from constant fiddling. They remind me of the "Wayne's World" joke of the 'suck-cut'  (It certainly does suck). I may try Crayon King's link to have as a good in-between, but will be careful on fragile boards as DrVenkman suggests.

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3 hours ago, seastalker said:

I tried poking the rod through to clean it and dump the canister contents before my original post.

If you remove the cannister and place your finger over the back flange, does the vacuum seem to work harder?  Can you blow through the cannister with the filter on the back?  Can you blow compressed air through the tip?

 

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11 hours ago, -^CrossBow^- said:

You can also remove the ceramic filter layers...so I've found I can get a little more life from the filters by remove a few layers and getting a cleaner part of the filter. Combine it with another and I can extend the life of the use out of a filter.

 

 

Bingo!

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  • 4 weeks later...

I found a download of the manual in English which is a big help (mine came with Japanese only) I inspected the unit, removed the rear cover and unscrewed the fixing plate and cleaned the diaphragm with isoprop, though that looked pretty clean.  Screwing and unscrewing it with that wobbly crank shaft and crank made diaphragm alignment a process, but after putting the fixing plate back, all looks pretty good.  I razored the bad part of the filter off and still have it, but opted to replace it outright while troubleshooting. I can push the cleaning rods through the heating element but not the nozzle itself, which is a mixed emotion discovery.

 

I was happy to find out I may just need to unclog the nozzle, but then I reconsidered. If the nozzle is clogged, you would think that heat when powered on and pushing the cleaning pin while pulling the trigger would clean it if there was no vacuum problem.  I've tried putting the nozzle tip in a helping hands and use a soldering iron to heat it - manual solder sucker, even push a sewing needle through but no dice.  I read that I could clean it by using a small drill bit, but none in my collection are small enough for this one nozzle it came with, marked N61-08    1.0   190619.

 

So I ask, the manual shows several compatible nozzle shapes and sizes.  Nozzle tips seems expensive so I don't want to buy ones I won't likely use.  If I mostly work on electronics like retro computers and consoles (MAYBE I will try CRT boards), which tips are suggested?  Is there a bundle to look into? Also, what drill bits/sizes should I also have on hand for cleaning purposes? Thank you fellow Hakko fans.

 

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, seastalker said:

I was happy to find out I may just need to unclog the nozzle, but then I reconsidered. If the nozzle is clogged, you would think that heat when powered on and pushing the cleaning pin while pulling the trigger would clean it if there was no vacuum problem.  I've tried putting the nozzle tip in a helping hands and use a soldering iron to heat it - manual solder sucker, even push a sewing needle through but no dice.  I read that I could clean it by using a small drill bit, but none in my collection are small enough for this one nozzle it came with, marked N61-08    1.0   190619.

My cleaning rod will go through even the smallest nozzle, so I don't even need to remove the nozzle to attempt to clear the solder.

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6 hours ago, seastalker said:

I was happy to find out I may just need to unclog the nozzle, but then I reconsidered. If the nozzle is clogged, you would think that heat when powered on and pushing the cleaning pin while pulling the trigger would clean it if there was no vacuum problem.  I've tried putting the nozzle tip in a helping hands and use a soldering iron to heat it - manual solder sucker, even push a sewing needle through but no dice.  I read that I could clean it by using a small drill bit, but none in my collection are small enough for this one nozzle it came with, marked N61-08    1.0   190619.

The trick, such as it is, is never turn off the tool until you've run the little cleaning wire through the nozzle several times while triggering the vacuum a couple times each. That will ensure nothing ever hardens inside the nozzle and clogs it. If you do get a clogged nozzle (which I have, once very early on when I forgot the cardinal rule above), heating it won't really help much. All the flux will have evaporated leaving a solid mass of metal. It will melt much more slowly and much less thoroughly without it. You might have luck by dripping liquid flux into the nozzle while heating but I wouldn't count on it. The one time the nozzle got clogged on mine I simply used a tiny drill bit in a hand drill.

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Yes, I may have taken a short break where I turned off the tool for safety on my initial use. I can't think of what else caused it. Thank you for the cardinal rule.  Good news though, not only do I have another tip coming, but I got my current one working again!  Such a simple thing that experienced people will probably laugh at me for, but as a noob it is a learning experience.  While trying to push the cleaner stick through the nozzle tip while heated did NOT work, I pushed on one end and pressed the trigger a few times at the same time and it was enough to clear it.   I got some more practice time on a dead C64 board and feel ready for a re-cap project now. 

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I think I pretty much just have the 1mm tip on mine all the time. You can get small drill bits just for this purpose from Hakko as I've got 2 different bits to use for clearing the nozzles on mine. But the real thing I've done that helps the most to keep the nozzles clear is to keep the trigger held down a few seconds longer after each use to make sure the nozzle is clear before starting the next via I need to clear. I use the cleaning rod anytime I start to sense the suction being affected. With use, you will start to learn it and know by sound when it needs to be cleared or at least verify it is cleared before an issue arises.

 

 

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Though I really got the hang of it today with a Model 1 Sega Genesis VA3 board, even being careful, some solder pads were injured in the making of this post.  I can label them here if need be, but since there are solder pads on BOTH sides of each hole, is there ever an instance where capacitors might be ok as long as you have contact on say the topside of the board and not the bottom?  Otherwise, for the ones that came off, is a patch wire the way to go forward and how do I determine a point from that capacitor leg to connect to?

 

I hit a stopping point with all the caps out and the pads cleaned.  Tomorrow I was going to put the new caps in.

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1 hour ago, seastalker said:

Though I really got the hang of it today with a Model 1 Sega Genesis VA3 board, even being careful, some solder pads were injured in the making of this post.  I can label them here if need be, but since there are solder pads on BOTH sides of each hole, is there ever an instance where capacitors might be ok as long as you have contact on say the topside of the board and not the bottom?  Otherwise, for the ones that came off, is a patch wire the way to go forward and how do I determine a point from that capacitor leg to connect to?

 

I hit a stopping point with all the caps out and the pads cleaned.  Tomorrow I was going to put the new caps in.

Don't be hard on yourself - some boards are just better-made than others, some have had heat or chemical damage of the years and are just more fragile. 

 

So long as there are pads on both sides of the board and the through-hole is plated, if you've lifted one it's not a big deal. Just follow the traces and verify continuity over to the next component in line from the questionable pad. If you don't have continuity, simply run a bodge wire (jumper wire) over to the next component. 

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What temp are you using on that hakko? You really shouldn't need to have it higher than 2 on the bottom dial for most de-soldering work. Also it really helps if you first add some fresh solder to what you are going to de-solder as it will help to melt all the solder together and have it suck out of the vias when you trigger the gun.

 

The only PCBs I've had lifted traces on even when using my FR-300 is the colecovision. But I just have to keep the temps a bit lower on it.

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16 hours ago, seastalker said:

Though I really got the hang of it today with a Model 1 Sega Genesis VA3 board, even being careful, some solder pads were injured in the making of this post.  I can label them here if need be, but since there are solder pads on BOTH sides of each hole, is there ever an instance where capacitors might be ok as long as you have contact on say the topside of the board and not the bottom?  Otherwise, for the ones that came off, is a patch wire the way to go forward and how do I determine a point from that capacitor leg to connect to?

 

I hit a stopping point with all the caps out and the pads cleaned.  Tomorrow I was going to put the new caps in.

I've recapped about 7 or 8 model one Genesis boards using the Hakko FR-300.  The VA2's I've seen are a lot easier to work on than the VA3's and VA6's (these three are the only revisions I've recapped) the way the leads were bent all the way over and soldered on, on the VA3 and VA6 makes reworking them a bit harder and had to be a bit more careful and yeah, I've lifted a couple of pads on those too and had to make repairs.  I've got a few more of those Genesis to work on, but I have to be in the mood. Those 39 electrolytic caps, soldered on they way they are, I have to be in the right mood. :)

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Dr Venkman, thank you for the "Don't be too hard on yourself" quote. I may print it out to look at while I work. I'm hoping my posts of successes and failures will inspire others to join the hardware preservation club.  If Bob at RetroRGB can laugh at himself for bad soldering or de-soldering, so can I. :Thanks everyone for not calling me a Genesis killer as I learn.  Being fair, to answer CrossBow, I had it set to 2.5 after reading what little I had for when to use which temp and ideas I found on youtube. I never knew what temp to put my crappy soldering pen on for the task at hand either.  I will dial back to 2 from 2.5 for now.

 

Some may be proud of me that I at least have learned enough in soldering that I knew times when I lifted traced that were clearly my fault being a soldering infant with no experience vs. THIS experience. Here, these VA3 board pads I really suspect being not my fault this time. They seemed too easy to have been lifted as if manufacturing shortcuts were made, or more likely just got tired with age like we all do. 

 

I do have a decent multi-meter and have tested continuity before but always had questions because my testing felt ambiguous at times.  Some points on motherboards have a clear start and end, though others seem isolated in a tiny island or lawn of green unmarked solder-mask.  I don't know where to point the other end to test continuity.  

 

Dr Venkman said "So long as there are pads on both sides of the board and the through-hole is plated". Plated? I looked it up and found this.  I can't tell by looking at the motherboard if a VA3 Genesis is plated or not.  I would LOVE to find out all is well and to just solder in the new caps, but instead I will solder in all but these I damaged: 

 

BOTTOM SIDE of JP1/C71 and TOP SIDE of C72, C31, and C61 

 

And to Cmherndon79, I hear you on the amount of caps to replace. This Genesis is my first re-cap because for me it is not as rare or expensive to replace as my other projects: I have to do a 32x, a Panasonic 3DO, and my PC-Engine which should be a dream job in comparison to the 30+ Genesis capacitors. I want to re-cap my Genesis 1 because it is what I had.  I am not liking that my MegaSD is being held back by setup TMSS model 1.  It bugs me because my original release Genesis could play Populous and Budokan without issue, and the TMSS screen is a reminder I can't play them on every other game.

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I got all the other caps installed and legs trimmed and am down to the problem children. I have about 5 where a leg would be in without a solder pad on just one side. Can anyone confirm if the Sega Genesis VA3 board is 'plated' as DrVenkman mentioned?  Cmherndon79's mention of repair work makes me think I may have to do the same.  Are there any good guides on how to roadmap a pcb?  I know green is the mask and copper are the 'roads' to follow from point A to B.  Some paths aren't so easy to determine like these capacitor legs that seem to be 'detached' from any copper roads. I am looking now online for some guides. 

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