XM has shipped!

[Curt Vendel]

On 1/19/2020 at 11:01 PM, DEBRO said:

Do you have a demo of the XM working with a CC2 built in high score and POKEY?

 

Also, is there a way for a developer to know the XM is present?

My CC2 is currently hosed.  I’ve thoroughly tested with the CC2 in the very beginning.

 

ive got new SD/MMC slots on their way so I am hoping to have my CC2 back up and kicking in 2 weeks.

[Zonie]

Only three straps? Wow, I'm impressed. That is a very detailed board to get it nearly perfect. Bravo. 

[Curt Vendel]

14 hours ago, Zonie said:

Only three straps? Wow, I'm impressed. That is a very detailed board to get it nearly perfect. Bravo. 

Thanks, I'm using a very old CAD program that I just have a large library of custom Atari parts when I first started this project.  The board wasnt going to be as populated and complex as it became, so the software seemed fine in the beginning but has no auto-routing or  end point checks in it, so everything has to be down by the manual tracing feature in it that highlights the ends and then you click the traces and follow.   I just missed a couple of via's so those got me this time.

 

In the meantime this gave me the opportunity to nest a SOIC 28 inside of the DIP 24 of the NvRAM and run the connections and a CE line resistor for a FRAM replacement for the Dallas 1220's.   I only had about 25 of them on hand and used most in testing and HSC NvRAM carts, so instead of buying more of the 1220's which got for about $4 each, I can go with the FRAM's which are about $1 each and also have a huge lifespan to them vs the DS1220's which have a 20 yrs lifespan, though some pinballs and arcades that use them some 35+ yrs later are just failing now.

 

 

[Synthpopalooza]

Question:

 

Going forward, will the XM be using classic POKEY or the PokeyONE?

 

Because I use some sound techniques that require using the SIO functions that are not as yet supported in PokeyONE,  specifically 2-tone mode.

[+mytek]

4 hours ago, Curt Vendel said:

Thanks, I'm using a very old CAD program that I just have a large library of custom Atari parts when I first started this project.  The board wasnt going to be as populated and complex as it became, so the software seemed fine in the beginning but has no auto-routing or  end point checks in it, so everything has to be down by the manual tracing feature in it that highlights the ends and then you click the traces and follow.   I just missed a couple of via's so those got me this time.

What PCB layout program are you using? Don't feel bad, since I still use an older version of ExpressPCB myself, but I have a couple of auxiliary programs that make up for the deficiencies, such as Xcheck which verifies that all of the connections called out by the schematic jives with my layout, so no missed or incorrectly routed traces are possible. I also use Copper Connection to generate gerbers, and allow me to import artwork to go on the silk screen. So the only thing I'm really missing is auto-routing, which I do fine without.

 

[Curt Vendel]

5 hours ago, Synthpopalooza said:

Question:

 

Going forward, will the XM be using classic POKEY or the PokeyONE?

 

Because I use some sound techniques that require using the SIO functions that are not as yet supported in PokeyONE,  specifically 2-tone mode.

POKEY's and POKEY Max's

[Curt Vendel]

45 minutes ago, mytek said:

What PCB layout program are you using? Don't feel bad, since I still use an older version of ExpressPCB myself, but I have a couple of auxiliary programs that make up for the deficiencies, such as Xcheck which verifies that all of the connections called out by the schematic jives with my layout, so no missed or incorrectly routed traces are possible. I also use Copper Connection to generate gerbers, and allow me to import artwork to go on the silk screen. So the only thing I'm really missing is auto-routing, which I do fine without.

 

That is EXACTLY what I had wound up using.   Xcheck???   In all my years of using this old clunker of a program, never heard of that.   Copper Connection was nice, but had some very serious flaws when it first came out, by the time it matured enough (but lacked a schematic capture which made me not use it much, except for the export feature which was worth its weight in gold) he got bought out by ExpressPCB and they took out the export feature to lock people in.   But I managed to find a way to export out the gerbers from it anyway.

 

[+mytek]

Here you go: http://www.softwaregizmos.com/xcheck.shtml

 

This program really is worth it's weight in gold. I don't think I could have created the 1088 series projects without it. Very easy to use, just point to your PCB and Schematic files and it'll run a complete design rules and trace route verification check. Some of the ground plane clearance errors that pop up I ignore, since they are based on ExpressPCB rules and not the real world if you are exporting the gerbers to go to a different manufacturer.

 

Yeah I purchased the last rev of Copper Connection mere months before he sold it off to ExpressPCB. It works great for exporting ExpressPCB to gerbers, which is pretty much all I use it for. Cost me $49, but has saved me hundreds of $$$ because I'm not locked into ExpressPCB's high manufacturing costs. I usually send my stuff over to JLCpcb to get made, or if it's a tiny board I'll also use OSH Park where they can be competitive (this only works for the smallest boards).

 

 

Not to throw a wrench into the works, but since your board is still in flux, have you considered using any of the console/reset lines available on the TK-II-GS keyboard interface? Not sure if they would be useful for anything on the XM or 7800, but they're essentially 4 active low outputs that have been routed to the 15-pin Dsub connector, labeled Start, Select, Option, Reset which coincide with the Function keys on the PS/2 keyboard.

 

TK-II-GS Schematic

TK-II Manual

 

[Cobra Kai]

Great news that some finished units are shipped! Thank you for allowing us to fill out that form to update our addresses. My only issue with that was there was never any confirmation that the proof we provided with the form was 'acknowledged'. Would have been nice to get an email confirmation acknowledging that our information was updated.  Now I'm kind of anxious of my pre-order honestly.

[Curt Vendel]

20 minutes ago, Kobra Kai said:

Great news that some finished units are shipped! Thank you for allowing us to fill out that form to update our addresses. My only issue with that was there was never any confirmation that the proof we provided with the form was 'acknowledged'. Would have been nice to get an email confirmation acknowledging that our information was updated.  Now I'm kind of anxious of my pre-order honestly.

Sure, I understand that, right now I've been focusing on prepping to ship and I just planned to hit the forms from first entry onward, start contacting people in like 10-20 batches, do confirmations with each person, make shipping labels and then ship them out.   Then as Jinx suggested, I'll post up each batch of names that have gone out as well.  I'm trying to juggle a lot so please bear with me.

 

 

 

 

[Curt Vendel]

36 minutes ago, mytek said:

Here you go: http://www.softwaregizmos.com/xcheck.shtml

 

This program really is worth it's weight in gold. I don't think I could have created the 1088 series projects without it. Very easy to use, just point to your PCB and Schematic files and it'll run a complete design rules and trace route verification check. Some of the ground plane clearance errors that pop up I ignore, since they are based on ExpressPCB rules and not the real world if you are exporting the gerbers to go to a different manufacturer.

 

Yeah I purchased the last rev of Copper Connection mere months before he sold it off to ExpressPCB. It works great for exporting ExpressPCB to gerbers, which is pretty much all I use it for. Cost me $49, but has saved me hundreds of $$$ because I'm not locked into ExpressPCB's high manufacturing costs. I usually send my stuff over to JLCpcb to get made, or if it's a tiny board I'll also use OSH Park where they can be competitive (this only works for the smallest boards).

 

 

Not to throw a wrench into the works, but since your board is still in flux, have you considered using any of the console/reset lines available on the TK-II-GS keyboard interface? Not sure if they would be useful for anything on the XM or 7800, but they're essentially 4 active low outputs that have been routed to the 15-pin Dsub connector, labeled Start, Select, Option, Reset which coincide with the Function keys on the PS/2 keyboard.

 

TK-II-GS Schematic

TK-II Manual

 

Heck Mike!   That's an awesome idea, lemme look at what is needed and try to sandwich it in, the whole SIO/KB area is getting rather crowded. 

 

Thank you!!!

 

[+mytek]

23 minutes ago, Curt Vendel said:

Heck Mike!   That's an awesome idea, lemme look at what is needed and try to sandwich it in, the whole SIO/KB area is getting rather crowded. 

 

Thank you!!!

Yes I figured it would be nice to have some of the physical console buttons also mapped to the function keys on the keyboard if at all possible, especially since the hooks are already there in the TK-II-GS hardware . But I also don't want people throwing tomatoes at me if this derails or adds more time to getting the XM project released.

 

EDIT: BTW, those TK-II-GS outputs lines work very much like an open collector transistor, they go tristate and float when not needed, So that means they can be parallel connected with any console switch without interfering with it's original operation.

 

[Cobra Kai]

1 hour ago, Curt Vendel said:

Sure, I understand that, right now I've been focusing on prepping to ship and I just planned to hit the forms from first entry onward, start contacting people in like 10-20 batches, do confirmations with each person, make shipping labels and then ship them out.   Then as Jinx suggested, I'll post up each batch of names that have gone out as well.  I'm trying to juggle a lot so please bear with me.

 

 

 

 

I understand and appreciate the work ahead of you. I'm not trying to sound like a simplistic fool here, but I hope you will be contacting us through our emails, because I'm pretty sure my forum name is different even from when I updated my info with your form about a year ago.

[Shawn]

2 hours ago, mytek said:

 But I also don't want people throwing tomatoes at me if this derails or adds more time to getting the XM project released.

 

 

Ya, this thing needs absolutely no more features or changes added to prolong what has been a painful decade of waiting. I'm sure everyone is just happy to see this is finally done and sooner than later, start making it into the hands of those who ordered it so many moons ago. 

[HammR25]

I'd say that it really isn't in flux at this point since he's already sent the final design out to developers.  The time for adding new stuff to the board has LONG since past.  I've got lots of tomatoes. New features are things that should be added to the 3200 project instead.

[Trebor]

Please, don't do it...

 

"Feature creep is still trying to paw its way into even the last finalized design..." - June 29, 2010

 

I mean this kindly and sincerely; there will always be something more, something else, that could be/should be added, but it truly needs to stop at this point.

 

We need to learn from history and keep it final, finally... 

Please. ?

[Synthpopalooza]

5 hours ago, Curt Vendel said:

POKEY's and POKEY Max's

Does POKEY Max support the full I/O and 2-tone mode?

[+mytek]

I hear all of you. So here is what I propose...

 

Shelve any new changes for the time being. Lock in the design, assuming that nothing is found by the beta testers that absolutely needs to be corrected. Once the beta testers give the green light, produce and ship the boards to those that already put up their money. Then before doing another production run beyond that, take in all the feedback from these first users and evaluate if and where a change makes sense, then implement those changes prior to a new production run. This satisfies all the prepaid orders, and anything beyond that is completely up to what Curt and the rest of the development team feel like doing, since no one's money will be in the pot any more.

 

I know some of you are rightfully upset, and have likely lost patience a long time ago. But to totally ignore and/or forbid any possible improvements in design for future orders, would be in my mind kinda short sighted and defeats the whole idea of innovation that even brought about the XM and so many other cool upgrades for the Atari.

 

[Cobra Kai]

6 hours ago, mytek said:

I hear all of you. So here is what I propose...

 

Shelve any new changes for the time being. Lock in the design, assuming that nothing is found by the beta testers that absolutely needs to be corrected. Once the beta testers give the green light, produce and ship the boards to those that already put up their money. Then before doing another production run beyond that, take in all the feedback from these first users and evaluate if and where a change makes sense, then implement those changes prior to a new production run. This satisfies all the prepaid orders, and anything beyond that is completely up to what Curt and the rest of the development team feel like doing, since no one's money will be in the pot any more.

 

I know some of you are rightfully upset, and have likely lost patience a long time ago. But to totally ignore and/or forbid any possible improvements in design for future orders, would be in my mind kinda short sighted and defeats the whole idea of innovation that even brought about the XM and so many other cool upgrades for the Atari.

 

I've seen so many people recommend new features for this thing over the years, most of which don't have pre-order money in, so they essentially have nothing to lose. If I didn't want to get banned from the thread I would really let you have it. I think you should just be quiet.

[+mytek]

1 hour ago, Kobra Kai said:

I've seen so many people recommend new features for this thing over the years, most of which don't have pre-order money in, so they essentially have nothing to lose. If I didn't want to get banned from the thread I would really let you have it. I think you should just be quiet.

With all due respect for your opinion, I do have both time and money invested in this project. I both assisted Curt in finding a solution to the audio mixer problem, as well as contributed hardware to Curt and one of the other people on the team. Perhaps it's not the same as your situation, but none the less I am invested in the project being a success. What I proposed earlier was not really about adding new features, but more about wiring in a couple of pins from a keyboard connector that already exists to take advantage of some unused signals. But then I retracted that suggestion for the preorders, and pushed it down the line for future production beyond the preorders which has absolutely nothing to do with yours, or anyone else's preorder status. If anything, my interference as you seem to be suggesting, helped keep this project moving forward.

 

Oh and before I forget. Curt check your PM inbox, I uploaded that software application you needed.

 

[Cobra Kai]

You didn't need to make that proposal because that naturally would have occurred anyway, because that's what beta testers do. If beta testers get a fully functional unit, there's no need for further tweaks, no matter how much sense it makes. That has been the same excuse given for 10 years, "we're just making it better you idiots!" . Well enough already, what I want is already in there. I didn't help produce crap for this thing other than money if you want to know, but that's money unused elsewhere all this time, are you going to pay me a dividend for another delay?

 

If I sound irrational, thats nothing new, I'm often that way.

[+mytek]

1 hour ago, Kobra Kai said:

You didn't need to make that proposal because that naturally would have occurred anyway, because that's what beta testers do. If beta testers get a fully functional unit, there's no need for further tweaks, no matter how much sense it makes. That has been the same excuse given for 10 years, "we're just making it better you idiots!" . Well enough already, what I want is already in there. I didn't help produce crap for this thing other than money if you want to know, but that's money unused elsewhere all this time, are you going to pay me a dividend for another delay?

Ok first of all I did think better, and retracted my suggestion for the preorders, suggesting it be deferred for after the preorders have been satisfied. Secondly the suggestion referred to signals that I provide on the hardware that I already donated a while back to the people working on this project, which in all likelyhood they were not aware of since it wouldn't have been present on a stock XEGS keyboard - the original target for inclusion of the connector. And to be honest, even if my suggestion were included at this time, it really amounts to nothing but adding a trace or two connected to something like the system reset or pause if that's  available from within the XM. And since Curt needed to add some missing traces anyway, it would have amounted to nothing more than adding a few minutes to that job, not requiring or impacting on the beta testers time since it's really nothing more than another switch connection.

 

BTW, just so you know, I don't benefit monentarily in any way shape or form from any time and/or money I've invested in this stuff, whereas you'll at least see something representing your invested $$$, as you should. I do this for the love of the hobby, and nothing more. Perhaps you should be the one to pay a dividend, or better yet make that a donation to people like me  .

 

Now I suggest you should take your own advice and be quite .

 

[Cobra Kai]

2 hours ago, mytek said:

Ok first of all I did think better, and retracted my suggestion for the preorders, suggesting it be deferred for after the preorders have been satisfied. Secondly the suggestion referred to signals that I provide on the hardware that I already donated a while back to the people working on this project, which in all likelyhood they were not aware of since it wouldn't have been present on a stock XEGS keyboard - the original target for inclusion of the connector. And to be honest, even if my suggestion were included at this time, it really amounts to nothing but adding a trace or two connected to something like the system reset or pause if that's  available from within the XM. And since Curt needed to add some missing traces anyway, it would have amounted to nothing more than adding a few minutes to that job, not requiring or impacting on the beta testers time since it's really nothing more than another switch connection.

 

BTW, just so you know, I don't benefit monentarily in any way shape or form from any time and/or money I've invested in this stuff, whereas you'll at least see something representing your invested $$$, as you should. I do this for the love of the hobby, and nothing more. Perhaps you should be the one to pay a dividend, or better yet make that a donation to people like me  .

 

Now I suggest you should take your own advice and be quite .

 

Look, I think I remember now you having helped breath new life into this project, and for that you have my gratitude. I also think that a thread titled XM has shipped!!, is not the place to bring up more revision suggestions. 

[+mytek]

1 hour ago, Kobra Kai said:

Look, I think I remember now you having helped breath new life into this project, and for that you have my gratitude. I also think that a thread titled XM has shipped!!, is not the place to bring up more revision suggestions. 

It wasn't really my intention to specifically come into this thread and start talking about revisions. It started out when I put 2 and 2 together and had a pretty good hunch that Curt was using the same PCB layout program that I do, and that he probably wasn't aware of a tool that could help him out with a problem he was talking about, that being the missed traces on his last layout. Since a lot of people have expressed their opposition to my using that program in the past, I thought if I mentioned it first that perhaps Curt would be more comfortable confirming that's what he used as well. So as it turned out, yes he and I use the same program, but he wasn't aware of the verification tool I've been using that would prevent missed or incorrectly routed traces. So now he knows, and I think that will be another asset concerning this project. Anyway in the course of that back and forth conversation, and the fact that I've been recently working on a firmware revision for the TK-II-GS, it popped into my mind that perhaps he wasn't aware of the extra I/O available on that device of which he has two of. So I mentioned it. This was not something that my mind said "Opps I have an idea. Oh but maybe I should first go elsewhere before I mention it". It was only as I was writing it, that I thought about the possible consequences, hence the "throwing tomatoes" reference.

 

Yes I could have erased that last paragraph, and saved it for another day, or another topic, or a PM. But then I thought no, we're all mature adults and this really shouldn't be an issue, so I left it in and posted it while trying to keep it light and humorous (I guess I failed).

 

Being almost 64, my way of thinking was I better mention it before I forget it, which is becoming all to common lately. Even if the extra switch connections on the TK-II-GS were to simply go to extra I/O on the CPLD or the PIA, and doesn't presently get implemented in the core, that's ok since it'll be there for a down the road upgrade. An upgrade that wouldn't leave the pre-order people out of the loop (they can reprogram the CPLD and be back in business). So with Curt mentioning that he still needed to do one last tweak to the PCB layout, it just seemed like a good time to address a possible asset that he probably wasn't aware of.

 

Now the whole thing could have just been limited to that post I made, end of story. But then your response in-particular seemed kinda threatening and dismissive.

7 hours ago, Kobra Kai said:

If I didn't want to get banned from the thread I would really let you have it. I think you should just be quiet.

This was not something I think I deserved, hence the reason for my responses that followed.

 

Anyway let's move on. I think we've both gone off topic long enough, and I get your point (and others) about there should be no more distractions to getting the XM delivered .

 

[+eebuckeye]

I just hope any future revision of the XM does not segregate XM users.. i.e. you must have version 2 to run this XM game or use all the features.  That would really suck after the delays.