+madman Posted September 21, 2023 Share Posted September 21, 2023 22 hours ago, roots.genoa said: Anyway, my point regarding Madman's comment was just that the Spectrum palette is not some kind of British invention, since you can find it in a lot of computers from around the world. Now I can obviously understand people find it ugly but, personally, I prefer Spectrum's vivid palette to the richer but faded C64 one. Did I miss the post where someone claimed the British invented the Spectrum's palette? If so, thanks for clarifying! ETA: AtariAge has to be one of the few places on the Internet where someone will use SMB3, generally considered one of the best video games of all time, as a means to defend the Spectrum. A computer that has exactly zero of the greatest games of all time. I don't understand why people get so defensive over that tiny box with rubber keys. There are plenty of systems and games I like that people crap on and somehow strangers on the Internet not liking things I like doesn't affect my enjoyment. If licensing a Spectrum emulator/BIOS (whatever the hold up is) and games is profitable for Blaze, they will do it. As one of the gaming industry's greats once said, "Simple as that". 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Loguidice Posted September 21, 2023 Share Posted September 21, 2023 14 hours ago, mr_me said: I think Ed Averitt retained the rights to the Odyssey2 games he programmed. The Astrocade controller does have an analog paddle integrated in the joystick but the Channel F does not. They are very different. ---------- Regarding colours, the ZX Spctrum used a straight rgbi colour palette. With some other systems that have fixed 16 colour palettes, colours were individually chosen and programmed into the graphics hardware. EGA had user programmable 6-bit colours; the default palette was for CGA backward compatibility. The Atari systems were the best for colours. You're right about the Odyssey2 and there are probably even easier rights to acquire with the games on the Vectrex and a few other platforms. I suspect the reason why these haven't been pursued to this point is even though the data rights are there, the marketing rights (for lack of a better term) aren't there, so there might be an issue with using packaging and other materials that don't fall under that type of ownership. I could be wrong, though, and that may not even be a particular blocker, but I wouldn't be surprised if there were something more to some of the more obvious collections that could be pursued and haven't as of yet (by anyone). And yes, I'm aware of and own both the Astrocade and Channel F. I just don't think bumpers are a suitable substitute for the respective knobs, but I admit I haven't tried it with a modern gamepad and emulation to see if it would be workable. Although it's not ideal, using bumpers/triggers for similar controlling arcade games with rotating joysticks is generally passable, but again, that's specifically the games that combine the joystick and rotation, not the specific paddle or paddle-like stuff. The obvious answer, of course, is to just don't include games that make use of those features on any compilations, but of course in the Channel F/VES's case, that would eliminate most of its best titles. In terms of "The Atari systems were the best for colours," that's true from an available palette standpoint for sure, but it's again an "in practice" type of thing versus "on paper." In quite a few cases, the number of onscreen colors were actually fewer than other systems with more limited palettes. When everything fell into place, however, it was absolutely one of the most impressive non-16-bit platforms in that regard. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Loguidice Posted September 21, 2023 Share Posted September 21, 2023 2 hours ago, madman said: ...the Spectrum. A computer that has exactly zero of the greatest games of all time. I don't understand why people get so defensive over that tiny box with rubber keys. There are plenty of systems and games I like that people crap on and somehow strangers on the Internet not liking things I like doesn't affect my enjoyment. If licensing a Spectrum emulator/BIOS (whatever the hold up is) and games is profitable for Blaze, they will do it. As one of the gaming industry's greats once said, "Simple as that". For a subjective concept of "greatest games of all time," your statement is objectively untrue. There are plenty of "greatest games of all time" that originated on the Spectrum, including Jetpac, Manic Miner, Jet Set Willy, The Lords of Midnight, Atic Atac, Knight Lore, and more. That type of compilation would do big numbers for the Evercade, particularly since they have a massive UK audience. And to go back to an earlier statement by someone else, yes, many of us love the technology for technology's sake and will just as happily game on an all-text, no sound machine as we will on a tricked-out modern gaming PC, but that's not true for the wider populace, even the wider retro gaming populace. There are absolutely limits and expectations to what people will put up with in terms of graphics, sound, smoothness, intuitiveness of controls or gameplay, etc. That's in evidence by some of the people in this very thread. It's just a question of how much further you can break up what's already a niche and still turn a profit. Again, for whatever its pluses and minuses from a technical standpoint, the Spectrum is a platform that is immune to that and any decent compilation will easily turn a profit. Since the Commodore PET was mentioned, assuming you could even cobble together a reasonable collection of licensed titles, that would be a VERY tough sell beyond a very small niche. You generally do need a minimum level of audio-visual performance, and PETSCII just wouldn't cut it with a large enough crowd. And as much as I love the platform and its simplistic block-based graphics and the sometimes brilliant games pulled off on it, the TRS-80 Model x series would fall into the same category, even though that has far more audio-visual punch (relative to purely text-based systems with limited or no sound, of course). I guess there are just some systems we have to accept forever being relegated to non-licensed emulator usage (games, obviously some emulators don't necessarily infringe any copyrights) or original hardware and media. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+madman Posted September 21, 2023 Share Posted September 21, 2023 56 minutes ago, Bill Loguidice said: For a subjective concept of "greatest games of all time," your statement is objectively untrue. There are plenty of "greatest games of all time" that originated on the Spectrum, including Jetpac, Manic Miner, Jet Set Willy, The Lords of Midnight, Atic Atac, Knight Lore, and more. That type of compilation would do big numbers for the Evercade, particularly since they have a massive UK audience. I'm here to learn. What are 3 Spectrum games that are mentioned in the same breath as SMB3. Perhaps I've underestimated the Spectrum. Jet Set Willy doesn't even appear to have been thought of as a top 10 Spectrum game. In the final issue of Your Sinclair, the ZX Spectrum version was ranked number 32 on "The Your Sinclair Official Top 100 Games of All Time", and voted number 33 on "The Your Sinclair Readers' Top 100 Games of All Time." Jetpac did even worse: The ZX Spectrum version was voted number 73 in the Your Sinclair Readers' Top 100 Games of All Time in 1993. I guess the Spectrum has at least 73 of the greatest video games of all time, time to download an emulator and find what I've been missing out on. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Loguidice Posted September 21, 2023 Share Posted September 21, 2023 (edited) 28 minutes ago, madman said: I'm here to learn. What are 3 Spectrum games that are mentioned in the same breath as SMB3. Perhaps I've underestimated the Spectrum. Jet Set Willy doesn't even appear to have been thought of as a top 10 Spectrum game. In the final issue of Your Sinclair, the ZX Spectrum version was ranked number 32 on "The Your Sinclair Official Top 100 Games of All Time", and voted number 33 on "The Your Sinclair Readers' Top 100 Games of All Time." Jetpac did even worse: The ZX Spectrum version was voted number 73 in the Your Sinclair Readers' Top 100 Games of All Time in 1993. I guess the Spectrum has at least 73 of the greatest video games of all time, time to download an emulator and find what I've been missing out on. To be fair, not a lot of games are mentioned in the same breath as Super Mario Bros. 3, regardless of platform or era. Just like there are the "greatest movies of all-time" and "greatest albums" and "greatest books", etc., it's impossible to have a truly definitive list because there are so many different genres, tastes, etc., not to mention what people have been exposed to (most don't have our type of history or exposure to different platforms). You tend to like what you like and it's hard to be objective about things you don't care for, even if they're something most other people like. An example for me is Super Mario 64. While I acknowledge it's one of the great games of all-time and extremely well executed, I don't personally like it. And further for me, although they permeate all kinds of "top" and "best of" lists for various vintage platforms, including the likes of the Spectrum and C-64, I give much less weight to, and have much less interest in, licensed titles or ports of arcade games unless they're truly something special and/or offer a unique experience. To me, far more interesting are the "first on" or "best on" titles, which is why I mostly limited my top 10 games to try in the Vintage Game Consoles book for each platform to "first on" or "originals" rather than ports. The quick top-of-head list I gave for the Spectrum was purposely just originals, despite the fact that for actual "best of" Spectrum lists you'll see things like arcade ports, which I have little interest in on a system like that (and I'm sure would also leave you cold). Now, I'm not saying YOU would like the Spectrum titles I mentioned. After all, it CAN be extremely hard to get into older games even if we previously liked them back in the day. At the same time, I think we can also acknowledge why they might qualify as among the best of all-time since release. Even using Super Mario Bros. 3 as an example, even though it's easy to argue it's a "best of all time" game, not a lot of people relatively speaking will want to be playing that versus a newer title. There are very few truly timeless games that will be perfect as-is from release to any point in the future. That's also why we have so many remasters and updates. The originals still exist, but expectations change. That doesn't diminish the value that game had at the time or for x number of years after release. Edited September 21, 2023 by Bill Loguidice 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Loguidice Posted September 21, 2023 Share Posted September 21, 2023 1 minute ago, Bill Loguidice said: Now, I'm not saying YOU would like the Spectrum titles I mentioned. After all, it CAN be extremely hard to get into older games even if we previously liked them back in the day. At the same time, I think we can also acknowledge why they might qualify as among the best of all-time since release. Even using Super Mario Bros. 3 as an example, even though it's easy to argue it's a "best of all time" game, not a lot of people relatively speaking will want to be playing that versus a newer title. There are very few truly timeless games that will be perfect as-is from release to any point in the future. That's also why we have so many remasters and updates. The originals still exist, but expectations change. That doesn't diminish the value that game had at the time or for x number of years after release. To add onto this, I think a good example is the new Wizardry 1 remaster that was just released. It's safe to say the original is unequivocally one of the greatest games of all time. With that said, few would want to or even have the patience, if so motivated, to play it now. It's hardcore as all get out, but certainly was a definitive game for a number of years. Interfaces, audio-visuals, expectations, etc., have all evolved since. That's why the new version (https://store.steampowered.com/app/2518960/Wizardry_Proving_Grounds_of_the_Mad_Overlord/) keeps the core gameplay, but offers several quality-of-life improvements. Does that mean that the original Wizardry is a bad game or should no longer be considered an all-time great? Absolutely not. Similarly, that's why I think you'll need to keep an open mind with the Spectrum stuff by trying not to put modern expectations on titles from the early to mid 80s. Hopefully you can at least appreciate them for what they were. With that said, I DO think some of the games hold up well still (and yes, many of those titles mentioned have ALSO received modern updates--you don't typically do that with just any old title). 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mr_me Posted September 21, 2023 Share Posted September 21, 2023 2 hours ago, Bill Loguidice said: You're right about the Odyssey2 and there are probably even easier rights to acquire with the games on the Vectrex and a few other platforms. I suspect the reason why these haven't been pursued to this point is even though the data rights are there, the marketing rights (for lack of a better term) aren't there, so there might be an issue with using packaging and other materials that don't fall under that type of ownership. I could be wrong, though, and that may not even be a particular blocker, but I wouldn't be surprised if there were something more to some of the more obvious collections that could be pursued and haven't as of yet (by anyone). And yes, I'm aware of and own both the Astrocade and Channel F. I just don't think bumpers are a suitable substitute for the respective knobs, but I admit I haven't tried it with a modern gamepad and emulation to see if it would be workable. Although it's not ideal, using bumpers/triggers for similar controlling arcade games with rotating joysticks is generally passable, but again, that's specifically the games that combine the joystick and rotation, not the specific paddle or paddle-like stuff. The obvious answer, of course, is to just don't include games that make use of those features on any compilations, but of course in the Channel F/VES's case, that would eliminate most of its best titles. In terms of "The Atari systems were the best for colours," that's true from an available palette standpoint for sure, but it's again an "in practice" type of thing versus "on paper." In quite a few cases, the number of onscreen colors were actually fewer than other systems with more limited palettes. When everything fell into place, however, it was absolutely one of the most impressive non-16-bit platforms in that regard. You couldn't use any artwork from the original packaging, or possibly any logos that have copyrightable graphics but trademarks would have expired long ago. I don't see any issue re-releasing these games with the rights owner's permission. The Vectrex has an analog joystick, so any Vectrex games that require analog control could be an issue on Evercade. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
famicommander Posted September 21, 2023 Share Posted September 21, 2023 1 hour ago, Bill Loguidice said: For a subjective concept of "greatest games of all time," your statement is objectively untrue. There are plenty of "greatest games of all time" that originated on the Spectrum, including Jetpac, Manic Miner, Jet Set Willy, The Lords of Midnight, Atic Atac, Knight Lore, and more. If you lined up all of those games plus Yars' Revenge and Super Mario Bros 3 and showed them all to people who had never played any of them before 100% of people would pick Yar and Mario over those other six games combined. Anyone who has ever enjoyed video games can appreciate SMB3. The only people who can appreciate Spectrum are people who didn't know how much worse it was than every other game platform of its day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+madman Posted September 21, 2023 Share Posted September 21, 2023 41 minutes ago, Bill Loguidice said: To be fair, not a lot of games are mentioned in the same breath as Super Mario Bros. 3, regardless of platform or era. Just like there are the "greatest movies of all-time" and "greatest albums" and "greatest books", etc., it's impossible to have a truly definitive list because there are so many different genres, tastes, etc., not to mention what people have been exposed to (most don't have our type of history or exposure to different platforms). Correct, but generally speaking you will see many of the same games, movies, albums, etc on the various "best of" lists. Spectrum games are on "best of" lists as often as Police Academy 4 is on "greatest movies of all time" lists. I pointed out how Spectrum fans themselves in a Spectrum magazine considered Jetpac the 73rd best Spectrum game and here you are arguing it's one of the greatest games of all time. That honestly makes no sense to me and you can't say it's because people aren't exposed to the games, it was a ranking in a Spectrum magazine. Maybe I'm not understanding your argument here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Loguidice Posted September 21, 2023 Share Posted September 21, 2023 23 minutes ago, famicommander said: If you lined up all of those games plus Yars' Revenge and Super Mario Bros 3 and showed them all to people who had never played any of them before 100% of people would pick Yar and Mario over those other six games combined. Anyone who has ever enjoyed video games can appreciate SMB3. The only people who can appreciate Spectrum are people who didn't know how much worse it was than every other game platform of its day. Disagree, but it really doesn't matter. An all-time classic is an all-time classic regardless if it's in the top 100 or top 1000. I mean, there are literally millions of games. Would someone pick a game now over another game is not a good metric because there are so many variables. I mean, how many people would pick Jerry Butler's "Moon River" now over another song? It's the same type of thing. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Loguidice Posted September 21, 2023 Share Posted September 21, 2023 3 minutes ago, madman said: Correct, but generally speaking you will see many of the same games, movies, albums, etc on the various "best of" lists. Spectrum games are on "best of" lists as often as Police Academy 4 is on "greatest movies of all time" lists. I pointed out how Spectrum fans themselves in a Spectrum magazine considered Jetpac the 73rd best Spectrum game and here you are arguing it's one of the greatest games of all time. That honestly makes no sense to me and you can't say it's because people aren't exposed to the games, it was a ranking in a Spectrum magazine. Maybe I'm not understanding your argument here. Let's not fight over semantics. I gave a few examples of highly regarded and popular Spectrum games that could make an all-time list. I'm not even saying I like them all. Goodness knows I never liked the Manic Miner series because it's based off another all-time classic, Miner 2049er, that I never really liked the mechanics of either. I can still acknowledge the presence, influence, and regard others hold for it/them. It's not about what any one of us genuinely likes. We all have our own personal all-time lists that are no doubt wildly different from each other and common "best of/top" lists. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
famicommander Posted September 21, 2023 Share Posted September 21, 2023 3 minutes ago, Bill Loguidice said: Disagree, but it really doesn't matter. An all-time classic is an all-time classic regardless if it's in the top 100 or top 1000. I mean, there are literally millions of games. Would someone pick a game now over another game is not a good metric because there are so many variables. I mean, how many people would pick Jerry Butler's "Moon River" now over another song? It's the same type of thing. All time classics? I have spent most of my life collecting old videos game shit and I had never even heard of most of the games you mentioned. There are tons of classic books I've never read but when someone mentions War and Peace or Ulysses I have an idea what they're talking about without running to YouTube. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Loguidice Posted September 21, 2023 Share Posted September 21, 2023 Just now, famicommander said: All time classics? I have spent most of my life collecting old videos game shit and I had never even heard of most of the games you mentioned. There are tons of classic books I've never read but when someone mentions War and Peace or Ulysses I have an idea what they're talking about without running to YouTube. OK, so you're not into British platforms. That's on you and perfectly fine. Also, those are well-known games even outside of the Spectrum, so you acting like they're some obscure titles just sounds silly, even if that's a genuine response. Those games have appeared on many other platforms and in various remakes/updates, so again, you not hearing about most of those games is more about you than it is about their impact. Let's just bottom line this as I don't really want to defend the Spectrum. It doesn't need it. It's one of the best-selling computer platforms of all-time with quite a few well-beloved games. Whether any of us personally likes them or has played them or has heard of them, etc., doesn't change any of that. My only point ever was was that it's not even a question of being a viable platform for the Evercade to cover. I was just providing some additional context of why that might be and just a handful of example games that are popular, well-regarded, and have even seen many ports and updates. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
famicommander Posted September 21, 2023 Share Posted September 21, 2023 1 minute ago, Bill Loguidice said: OK, so you're not into British platforms. That's on you and perfectly fine. Also, those are well-known games even outside of the Spectrum, so you acting like they're some obscure titles just sounds silly, even if that's a genuine response. Those games have appeared on many other platforms and in various remakes/updates, so again, you not hearing about most of those games is more about you than it is about their impact. Let's just bottom line this as I don't really want to defend the Spectrum. It doesn't need it. It's one of the best-selling computer platforms of all-time with quite a few well-beloved games. Whether any of us personally likes them or has played them or has heard of them, etc., doesn't change any of that. My only point ever was was that it's not even a question of being a viable platform for the Evercade to cover. I was just providing some additional context of why that might be and just a handful of example games that are popular, well-regarded, and have even seen many ports and updates. The entire platform sold 5 million units worldwide over its lifespan. All of its games are obscure and very few of them are culturally relevant to anyone who isn't a Brit over 45. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Loguidice Posted September 21, 2023 Share Posted September 21, 2023 2 minutes ago, famicommander said: The entire platform sold 5 million units worldwide over its lifespan. All of its games are obscure and very few of them are culturally relevant to anyone who isn't a Brit over 45. You more or less made my point, save for the obscure thing, which should be "all of its games are obscure to me, famicommander, which doesn't mean much." That 5 million mark makes it one of the best-selling computers of all-time. In terms of cultural relevance in Britain, it's regularly brought up even today in mass media. As for the over 45 thing, if true, I'm sure that's a significant demographic of the Evercade platform, so that's a great match. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
famicommander Posted September 21, 2023 Share Posted September 21, 2023 Just now, Bill Loguidice said: You more or less made my point, save for the obscure thing, which should be "all of its games are obscure to me, famicommander, which doesn't mean much." That 5 million mark makes it one of the best-selling computers of all-time. In terms of cultural relevance in Britain, it's regularly brought up even today in mass media. As for the over 45 thing, if true, I'm sure that's a significant demographic of the Evercade platform, so that's a great match. Again, I didn't say that they shouldn't make a Spectrum cart. I just said that those games are completely irrelevant and unplayable to pretty much everyone's outside that demographic and the people who are here dying on their swords trying to explain why they don't suck are wasting their time. Your use of the term "all time classics" just comes across as comical in this context. Classics are universal. No matter how many centuries pass or how many languages it gets translated into, The Odyssey is universal. That's what it means to be an all time classic. The Spectrum is more akin to a regional folktale that wouldn't have any significance of meaning to people from outside that region. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+5-11under Posted September 21, 2023 Share Posted September 21, 2023 2 minutes ago, Bill Loguidice said: You more or less made my point, save for the obscure thing, which should be "all of its games are obscure to me, famicommander, which doesn't mean much." That 5 million mark makes it one of the best-selling computers of all-time. In terms of cultural relevance in Britain, it's regularly brought up even today in mass media. As for the over 45 thing, if true, I'm sure that's a significant demographic of the Evercade platform, so that's a great match. I think the Spectrum's capabilities also fit in nicely with some of the classic consoles that many people love, such as ColecoVision, Intellivision, Atari 5200. It's the computer that perhaps many here should get more interested in, if not already done. As an aside, in response to other points made here, it did also reach beyond the U.K., into a fairly wide variety of countries. Sinclair Research was also a very interesting company back in the day... it's famous to this day, for many people, especially if you were into computers in the very early '80s. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Loguidice Posted September 21, 2023 Share Posted September 21, 2023 1 hour ago, famicommander said: Again, I didn't say that they shouldn't make a Spectrum cart. I just said that those games are completely irrelevant and unplayable to pretty much everyone's outside that demographic and the people who are here dying on their swords trying to explain why they don't suck are wasting their time. Your use of the term "all time classics" just comes across as comical in this context. Classics are universal. No matter how many centuries pass or how many languages it gets translated into, The Odyssey is universal. That's what it means to be an all time classic. The Spectrum is more akin to a regional folktale that wouldn't have any significance of meaning to people from outside that region. I disagree with the idea that the games are irrelevant and unplayable today. That's not true of any platform's best games. It's your opinion about games you have no interest in. The fact that the Spectrum platform and its games are consistently re-released, available, actively played and discussed, etc., prove that. With all of that aside, as long as we agree that a Spectrum cartridge is an inevitability, and with good reason, then there's really nothing further to discuss. I think we do. Whether or not we appreciate, respect, or even like the games is irrelevant. We know that there's a significant population in this vintage gaming and computing niche that does all of those things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
famicommander Posted September 21, 2023 Share Posted September 21, 2023 (edited) 2 hours ago, Bill Loguidice said: I disagree with the idea that the games are irrelevant and unplayable today. That's not true of any platform's best games. It's your opinion about games you have no interest in. The fact that the Spectrum platform and its games are consistently re-released, available, actively played and discussed, etc., prove that. With all of that aside, as long as we agree that a Spectrum cartridge is an inevitability, and with good reason, then there's really nothing further to discuss. I think we do. Whether or not we appreciate, respect, or even like the games is irrelevant. We know that there's a significant population in this vintage gaming and computing niche that does all of those things. From all the information I can find not a single Spectrum game broke half a million in total sales. The most popular game on the system appears to be Ghostbusters but that was also released on Amiga, Apple II, Commodore 64, Tandy, 2600, CPC, NES, Master System, MSX, and Atari 8-bit. And all of those versions combined sold over 1 million but less than 2 million globally. So I think you're vastly overstating the relevance and popularity of the system and its games today. Hardware wise it sold less than half of what the Game Gear did and software wise its best selling titles didn't even come close to doing half of what the best selling Intellivision titles did (and Intellivision is a super niche platform too, with under 4 million total consoles sold). Even the Commodore 64, which is thought of as a popular platform, only had about 12.5 million total units produced. That puts it in the same neighborhood as the Master System. A far cry from the classic machines which were actually popular in the mainstream like the 2600, NES, or Genesis, which all sold over 30 million (over 60 in the case of the NES). Especially when you consider at least some percentage of the buyers of these ancient computers weren't buying them to play games at all. Edited September 21, 2023 by famicommander Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Loguidice Posted September 21, 2023 Share Posted September 21, 2023 2 minutes ago, famicommander said: From all the information I can find not a single Spectrum game broke half a million in total sales. The most popular game on the system appears to be Ghostbusters but that was also released on Amiga, Apple II, Commodore 64, Tandy, 2600, CPC, NES, Master System, MSX, and Atari 8-bit. And all of those versions combined sold over 1 million but less than 2 million globally. So I think you're vastly overstating the relevance and popularity of the system and its games today. Hardware wise it sold less than half of what the Game Gear did and software wise its best selling titles didn't even come close to doing half of what the best selling Intellivision titles did (and Intellivision is a super niche platform too, with under 4 million total consoles sold). Even the Commodore 64, which is thought of as a popular platform, only had about 12.5 million total units produced. That puts it in the same neighborhood as the Master System. A far cry from the classic machines which were actually popular in the mainstream like the 2600, NES, or Genesis, which all sold over 30 million (over 60 in the case of the NES). I'm done discussing this. I made my case. If you don't think the Spectrum and its games are relevant, that's solely on you and no doubt a pretty empty island of contrarians. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
famicommander Posted September 21, 2023 Share Posted September 21, 2023 4 minutes ago, Bill Loguidice said: I'm done discussing this. I made my case. If you don't think the Spectrum and its games are relevant, that's solely on you and no doubt a pretty empty island of contrarians. I don't think we agree on a definition of relevance. When your best selling game didn't do a quarter of what Astrosmash did, to me that's not relevance. Because I freaking love Astrosmash, it's in my Intellivision as I type this, but Astrosmash is super irrelevant in 2023. When your platform sold less than half of what the Game Gear sold, to me that's not relevance. Because I love my Game Gear but it has been relegated to a footnote in history. Seems to me if the Spectrum were such a slam dunk we'd have gotten Spectrum games by now. We have multiple carts each of Amiga, C64, Atari Lynx, and Intellivision games and those are all very low selling platforms compared to where the bulk of Evercade releases come from (NES, arcade Genesis, SNES). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roots.genoa Posted September 21, 2023 Share Posted September 21, 2023 4 hours ago, famicommander said: If you lined up all of those games plus Yars' Revenge and Super Mario Bros 3 I disagree with that, a lot of people wouldn't understand what you're supposed to do in Yars' Revenge to begin with. 13 minutes ago, famicommander said: Even the Commodore 64, which is thought of as a popular platform, only had about 12.5 million total units produced. That puts it in the same neighborhood as the Master System. And yet the C64 is still the best selling computer ever (except for the PC obviously). The Wii U sold more and is considered a failure; why is that so? Because times have changed, there are a lot more gamers than 40 years ago. That's why your comparisons are not relevant, especially when talking about games sold, given there was a lot of piracy on computers. ZX Spectrum games were on cassettes, which are even easier to copy than floppy disks. Also the ZX Spectrum was also a success in other countries of Europe and in Russia for instance, which explains why the best homebrewers today on Spectrum are Russians. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Loguidice Posted September 21, 2023 Share Posted September 21, 2023 Just now, famicommander said: I don't think we agree on a definition of relevance. When your best selling game didn't do a quarter of what Astrosmash did, to me that's not relevance. Because I freaking love Astrosmash, it's in my Intellivision as I type this, but Astrosmash is super irrelevant in 2023. When your platform sold less than half of what the Game Gear sold, to me that's not relevance. Because I love my Game Gear but it has been relegated to a footnote in history. Seems to me if the Spectrum were such a slam dunk we'd have gotten Spectrum games by now. We have multiple carts each of Amiga, C64, Atari Lynx, and Intellivision games and those are all very low selling platforms compared to where the bulk of Evercade releases come from (NES, arcade Genesis, SNES). One last time I guess. The rights are not as straightforward as you might think. The C-64 and Amiga stuff that's been released has already been rights-consolidated for a while versus other computing platforms, so that's why those are out first. It's not going to be as easy with other computer platforms. With the hint at Thalamus joining the fray, it's all but a guarantee we'll start to see some Spectrum stuff. And again, it's not solely a popularity contest for a platform like the Evercade, it's about what you have access to to compile into compelling cartridges. If we want to talk popularity, a random single spectrum group on Facebook is nearly 20,000 users strong. The ZX Spectrum next has raised several million dollars in two different Kickstarters. Etc. You're really barking up the wrong tree if you're trying to make the case that the Spectrum is not currently relevant and was not relevant. Both statements are objectively false. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
famicommander Posted September 21, 2023 Share Posted September 21, 2023 2 minutes ago, roots.genoa said: I disagree with that, a lot of people wouldn't understand what you're supposed to do in Yars' Revenge to begin with. And yet the C64 is still the best selling computer ever (except for the PC obviously). The Wii U sold more and is considered a failure; why is that so? Because times have changed, there are a lot more gamers than 40 years ago. That's why your comparisons are not relevant, especially when talking about games sold, given there was a lot of piracy on computers. ZX Spectrum games were on cassettes, which are even easier to copy than floppy disks. Also the ZX Spectrum was also a success in other countries of Europe and in Russia for instance, which explains why the best homebrewers today on Spectrum are Russians. I was comparing those systems to other systems from the 80s, not to modern systems. The 2600, NES, and Genesis were drastically more popular than the Commodore and the Commodore was almost 3X as popular as the Spectrum. The Spectrum is on the scale of the Intellivision or Atari 8-bit family as far as contemporary sales and modern relevance. Niche within niche. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
famicommander Posted September 21, 2023 Share Posted September 21, 2023 (edited) 6 minutes ago, Bill Loguidice said: One last time I guess. The rights are not as straightforward as you might think. The C-64 and Amiga stuff that's been released has already been rights-consolidated for a while versus other computing platforms, so that's why those are out first. It's not going to be as easy with other computer platforms. With the hint at Thalamus joining the fray, it's all but a guarantee we'll start to see some Spectrum stuff. And again, it's not solely a popularity contest for a platform like the Evercade, it's about what you have access to to compile into compelling cartridges. If we want to talk popularity, a random single spectrum group on Facebook is nearly 20,000 users strong. The ZX Spectrum next has raised several million dollars in two different Kickstarters. Etc. You're really barking up the wrong tree if you're trying to make the case that the Spectrum is not currently relevant and was not relevant. Both statements are objectively false. How does that 20,000 user Facebook group compare to Atari, SEGA, Nintendo, or Amiga/Commodore facebook groups? The Ouya and the Amico and the Atari VCS raised a ton of money on crowdfunding platforms too. And the three platforms combined have precisely zero relevance. EDIT: ZX Spectrum Next issues 1 and 2 combined to raise roughly 2.5 million pounds. The Ouya raised over 8.5 million dollars. The VCS raised 3 million on Indiegogo. Edited September 21, 2023 by famicommander Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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