C-64/C-128 Questions

[Tempest]

After pulling out my Apple the other day I got to thinking about other computers of the same era. For awhile I thought I might dabble in the Atari ST, but for some reason it just doesn't grab me (it's too foregin to me). While I'm happy with my good ol' Apple, I'm reminded that the graphics aren't all that great (can we say artifacting to the extreme?). So I thought that maybe a C-64 or C-128 would be the way to go. Same style of games, but with much better graphics (and cartridges!).

 

Now as a C-64/C-128 newbie I have some questions:

 

1. Is the C-128 100% C-64 compatible? Is there any reason to go with the 64 over the 128? Does the C-128 have a cartridge slot?

 

2. What is the Plus/4? Is it compatable with c-64 software? Is it worth looking into?

 

3. What do I need if I just want to play games (let's forget tape stuff for now)? A system, a disk drive, and a monitor right? Do I need any memory upgrades or things of that nature? What about speech (Was there a seperate add on for that?).

 

4. When it comes to comparing Apple IIe games to C-64 games, how do they compare? Obviously the graphics and sound are better on the C-64, but what about the gameplay? Is he C-64 surperior in all categories?

 

5. Is there some kind of SIO2PC interface for the Commodore? Some way to transfer disk files to the C-64/C-128? Can you burn C-64 games on disk on a IBM with a 5.25 drive?

 

Oh and does anyone have a large C-64/C-128 collection they want to trade or sell?

 

 

Tempest

[Dauber]

I think I can answer your first question...

 

As far as I know, the C128 <B>is</B> 100% C64-compatible, as it runs in three modes: C128 mode, C64 mode and CP/M mode. I believe it has all the same ports and slots as the 64, if not more.

 

But since there wasn't a heck of a lot of C128 support, at least in comparison to the 64, there wouldn't be a heck of a lot of advantage of having a 128; just really a more advanced operating system and an 80-column display.

[Ze_ro]

1. Is the C-128 100% C-64 compatible?  Is there any reason to go with the 64 over the 128?  Does the C-128 have a cartridge slot?

 

Yes, the 128 has a cartridge port. It's not 100% compatible, but games that don't work with it are far and few between. I've been running a C-128 in lieu of a 64 for about 8 years now, without any major concerns. MegaManFan posted a thread about how Sega cartridges apparently don't fit well into the C-128, but I don't have any Sega cartridges to test this with.

 

2. What is the Plus/4?  Is it compatable with c-64 software?  Is it worth looking into?

 

The Plus/4 has a completely different chipset, and isn't compatible at all. It even uses a different interface for the tape drive and disk drive (You can't use the 1541 with it). It's main pro is that it has four built-in programs, but they're productivity apps that aren't really that useful in the 21st century. If you have lots of spare time and can find all the equipment, it might be an interesting diversion, but I'd stick with the 64/128 if I were you.

 

3. What do I need if I just want to play games (let's forget tape stuff for now)?  A system, a disk drive, and a monitor right?  Do I need any memory upgrades or things of that nature?  What about speech (Was there a seperate add on for that?).

 

There are Ram Expansion Units (REU's) available, but they're not really necessary unless you want to use GEOS a lot. I don't think I've ever seen a game that used the REU. GEOS is a windowing operating system, and it's actually fairly decent. However, if all you want to do is play games, then GEOS won't really help you (It's akin to running Win 3.1 on Dos). REU's are also fairly hard to find, and usually expensive. Speec was done through the C-64's own sound processor, the SID chip (It's actually a fairly good chip, and some sound-philes still use it).

 

All you need is a disk drive (Try to find a 1571 if you plan on using a C-128, as it has extra capabilities over the 1541), the computer, a pair of joysticks, and a TV (Or a nice composite monitor). Very few games ever needed additional hardware.

 

4.  When it comes to comparing Apple IIe games to C-64 games, how do they compare?  Obviously the graphics and sound are better on the C-64, but what about the gameplay?  Is he C-64 surperior in all categories?

 

I don't have much experience with the Apple II... but I've never heard anyone call either system inferior as far as gameplay goes. I imagine most games play almost exactly the same.

 

5. Is there some kind of SIO2PC interface for the Commodore?  Some way to transfer disk files to  the C-64/C-128?  Can you burn C-64 games on disk on a IBM with a 5.25 drive?

 

Unfortunately, the C-64 uses a GCR formatting for it's disks that normal PC's can't read. You can get a device called a "Catweasel" that is essentially a programmable drive controller, and will let you read/write almost any disk format (including C-64 disks). I haven't tried one of these myself though, so I can't attest to it's abilities.

 

Another option is to build an X1541 cables. These cables let you hook a 1541 into the parallel port on a PC, and use special software (freely available) to read and write to C-64 disks. I made one of these years ago, and it's served me very well. If you're interested in this, make sure you read the information thoroughly, as there are different types of X1541 cables.

 

Hope that helps.

 

--Zero

[Thomas Jentzsch]

Is the C-128 100% C-64 compatible?

IIRC it's about 99.998% compatible (there is a register that switches to C-128 mode)

 

Is there any reason to go with the 64 over the 128?

The 0.002% and having the original.

 

What is the Plus/4? Is it compatable with c-64 software?  Is it worth looking into?

That's a later computer mainly with a much better basic. But the hardware should be about the same, though it's not compatible.

 

3. What do I need if I just want to play games (let's forget tape stuff for now)?  A system, a disk drive, and a monitor right?

A powersupply and a joystick. And a disk-speeder cart!

 

There even exists a CPU-speeder for the C64!

 

What about speech (Was there a seperate add on for that?).

No.

 

4.  When it comes to comparing Apple IIe games to C-64 games, how do they compare?  Obviously the graphics and sound are better on the C-64, but what about the gameplay?  Is he C-64 surperior in all categories?

I don't know much about the Apple, but the gameplay of good C64 games is just great.

 

5. Is there some kind of SIO2PC interface for the Commodore?  Some way to transfer disk files to  the C-64/C-128?

There are ways to transfer data from a C64 to a PC via a special cable.

 

Can you burn C-64 games on disk on a IBM with a 5.25 drive?

I don't think so.

[Ze_ro]

Oh, and one last note about C-128 compatability.... there are actually three ways of getting into C-64 mode:

 

1. From BASIC, type "GO64", and answer "Y"

 

2. Hold down the Commodore key (the one with the C= logo on it) while turning the system on.

 

3. Start the machine with a cartridge plugged in.

 

Although I haven't experienced this myself, supposedly the second way is the most compatible. This is because going through method 2 leaves a number of chips uninitialized, that otherwise can actually been seen through the GO64 method (although I think you have to perform some voodoo to actually access them). So if you're running 64 stuff on a 128, I'd recommend using the C= key method.

 

Oh, and if you're just starting out, and don't have a machine yet, try to find a C-128D... they're slick (Detachable keyboard, desktop case, built-in 1571 and power supply)

 

--Zero

[Raijin Z]

C64 can't read PC floppies, and vice versa without the aforementioned drive controller, or one of several adapter cables that let you hook a 1541 up to a PC. Damn shame, too, because I have a 5" drive in near-new condition and about 50 blank 5" floppies.

[Keir]

1. Is the C-128 100% C-64 compatible?  Is there any reason to go with the 64 over the 128?  Does the C-128 have a cartridge slot?

 

Yes, the 128 has a cartridge port. It's not 100% compatible, but games that don't work with it are far and few between. I've been running a C-128 in lieu of a 64 for about 8 years now, without any major concerns. MegaManFan posted a thread about how Sega cartridges apparently don't fit well into the C-128, but I don't have any Sega cartridges to test this with.

I use a 128D and I always have a tough time getting cartridges in and out. It isn't just Sega, though they may be the worst offender.

 

BTW, if you decided to get a 128 for some reason, and didn't mind spending a bit of cash, I would suggest the 128D which has a built in 1571 drive. However, you should probably just get a C64.

[Tempest]

you should probably just get a C64.

 

Yeah that's what I'll probably do. I think my local SA may have had one floating around (I've passed up two or three during my thrifting days).

 

Here's another question for all of you, can you hook a C-64 up to a TV with a S-Video cable ala the Atari 8-bits or do you have to use a special monitor?

 

Tempest

[Warren]

The cable might look the same, but trust me.... they're different. You'll kill your SID chip. The C= cable has 3 rca outputs... luma/chroma/audio.

[Sanriostar]

In regards to the X1541 cable stuff, don't forget to also d/l the program Star Commander. It uses that cable and can do things like transfer a disk image onto a C64 disk straight up. But I've heard that it has some XP compatibility issues.

 

...and for the love of all that is holy, don't forget the Fast Load cart from Epyx, '%filename' (minus quotes) loads the programs, and the Pound key brings up the function menu.

[desiv]

No, you want the SX64!!!!

 

C64 in a "luvable luggable" design with a built-in 5 in color monitor!!!

 

I had one of these "back in the day" but sold it to get my first Amiga..

 

I loved my Amiga, but I miss my SX64!!!!!

 

Just carrying it from dorm to dorm would render the carrying hand basically unuseable for a week or so, but it was worth it!!

 

Today tho, if I couldn't swing a SX64 (expensive to buy AND ship on EBay), I'd seriously consider a 128D..

 

The 128 came in handy for BASIC stuff. I wrote a BBS way back for the C64, and eventually I added so much stuff it wouldn't fit.. So I moved the code to my friends 128 and used the Blitz BASIC compiler. The compiled version would fit and run on my C64!!!

 

desiv

[Tempest]

Yeah but the SX's screen is about the size of a postage stamp. Ick!

 

Tempest

[JB]

Yeah but the SX's screen is about the size of a postage stamp.  Ick!

 

Tempest

But if YOU own it, some psycho won't gut it to put a sub-par IBM-compatible in it.

[Scooterb23]

Out of curiosity, what is a decent price to pay for an SX-64?? I had the opportunity a few weeks ago, I have a feeling it still may be available...

[Brad2600]

This thread is perfect as I was thinking of getting a C64 myself. I already have a 1701 monitor all set and know where to get a back-up one.

 

I checked EBay and they do have some good packages but I was hoping to find someone on here with a spare unit and the hookups and maybe a few games.

 

I assume you can create games with the C64, right?

 

I'm just going to keep looking until I find a C64.

[Ze_ro]

My Plea For The 128

 

Despite people saying that the C-64 gets that retro feel, and despite the fact that the C-128 isn't 100% compatible, I really feel like I should stick up for the 128 here, because it really deserves it. The C-128 is easily my favorite computer of all time, and it's not just a suped up C-64... it's so much more.

 

In addition to the normal 40 column output, the C-128 can natively output an 80 column display (There are cartridges on the C-64 to do this, but they suck compared to what the C-128 can do). This 80 column display is very much appreciated when using things like spread sheets, word processors, terminal emulators and so forth. Addmitedly, this isn't terribly useful these days, since the programs are rather archaic, and not many games take advantage of this, but if you decide to program on this machine, the 80 columns just feels so much more professional, and it feels so much more like a real computer. I love the 64, but 40 columns just feels so kiddy somehow.

 

The chip that generates the 80 column display (it's known as the VDC chip) is also capable of doing high-res graphics modes. I believe 640x300 or so is about what it's capable of. Unfortunately, it lacks some of the nice capabilities of the VIC-II chip (The VIC-II is the 40 column graphic chip in the 64 and 128) such as sprites, but you can do some really nice looking things with high resolutions. The down side of 80 column mode is that you need an RGB monitor to display it. The 1902 monitor is really nice to have here since it does both composite and RGB at the flick of a switch (This aspect is also nice, since you can do your programming in 80 column mode, and switch to 40 column to view your results... or vice versa).

 

Not many people mention it often, but the C-128 is capable of running CP/M. Of course, CP/M is essentially dead and buried these days, but there's a LOT of programs available for CP/M that you'd never have access to otherwise (Unless you also have an Osbourne or a Kaypro). There's some decent productivity apps on CP/M as well. CP/M is essentially very similar to MS-DOS (In fact, MS-DOS copied CP/M for the most part), and is pretty easy to get the hang of after using Windows even (a: drive, etc). I admit that I don't use CP/M mode very often, but it's a nifty addition, and it's worth a try if you get one of these machines.

 

For the programmers out there, the C-128 has an extended version of Basic... in fact, it uses Basic V7 (In comparison, the 64 uses V2, and the Plus/4 uses V10). Basic V7 includes many new commands for graphics and sound, and many other things (Such as RENUMBER to reorganize Basic line numbers). Thankfully, the C-128 is built with a more disk-centric structure than the C-64 was... on the C-64, most of the commands default to the tape drive, but in the 128, you get nice commands like SCRATCH"filename" to delete, and CATALOG to view the disk contents. These commands are a godsend after lots of C-64 work (You need to type three Basic V2 commands to delete a file on the C-64). In addition to these extra Basic commands, you also get a built-in sprite editor (Type SPRDEF from Basic), and an entire machine language monitor (type MONITOR from Basic) for doing assembly programming. Although there isn't much appeal for programming on an old computer, I'd highly recommend trying it out. The C-64 is a great hobbyist computer, and is really fun to program since it's fairly simple and well-documented. The C-128 extends this much further. Obviously, the C-128 also has quite a bit more memory than the C-64, and it can also be placed in a 2MHz mode by turning off the 40 column chip with the FAST command (Of course, this will blank out the 40 column screen. 80 column will still function though, and you can also have a program enter 2MHz mode, and go back after it's done a complicated task). The SLOW command resets it back to 1MHz speed. By the way, the Z-80 that the machine uses for CP/M runs at 4MHz.

 

The C-128 also supports new hardware. I already mentioned the 80-column mode and the 1902 monitor, but the 1751 disk drive is also a great piece of work. The drive is inherently faster (The initial slow speed of the 1541 was due to a bug in the VIC-20, and wasn't changed due to compatibility reasons), and can read BOTH sides of the disk (In 1571 mode, if you format a disk, it transparently uses both sides at once and gets 1300 blocks per disk... you don't have to switch sides with disk commands or anything). It can be placed into 1541 emulation mode with Basic commands (Not easy commands though... "OPEN 15,8,15" kind of stuff). Unfortunately, I don't think the 1571 provides any benefits in C-64 mode... it just stays in 1541 mode the entire time. Also, as far as I can tell, the 1541 mode of the 1571 is perfect. I've never had a speed-loader fail due to using a 1571. Finally, the 1571 is capable of reading CP/M disks that were formatted using an Osbourne or Kaypro... the 1541 can't do this apparently. Of course, it should be pointed out that the C-128 will happily work fine with just a TV and a 1541 (or even just a tape drive)... you just have to sacrifice some of the more luxurious features.

 

Finally, the physical aspects of the C-128 are also much nicer. The system is much more streamlined, which leads to less carpal tunnel risk (you can use normal PC style wrist pads), there are dedicated arrow keys (although they are still in an unfavorable arrangement, at least you don't need shift keys), there's an actual reset key, and there's even a nice flat area on the top of the computer that is nice for setting stuff on. One other thing that I really liked is that the joystick ports are slightly farther from the power switch... I've shocked C-64's to death many times while turning them on due to slight static electricity. By the way, there's a machine called the C-64C that is a C-64 in a case similar to the 128... it doesn't have the classic look of a C-64, but it has some of the benefits of this last paragraph.

 

The C-64 is a nice machine, and it's definitely worth buying... but I can't sit idly by while people say things like "However, you should probably just get a C64.", since the 128 is all that a C64 is and much more.

 

--Zero

[Ze_ro]

C64 can't read PC floppies, and vice versa without the aforementioned drive controller

 

Maybe I'm wrong about this, but I think I remember seeing some programs that were able to read a PC formatted disk from a C-64. However, this is inherently somewhat useless since copying files would be a huge chore unless you had two floppy drives. You'd also have to make sure the the disk was a 360K disk, since no Commodore drive that I know of could read high density disks... plus, I imagine that you'd probably HAVE to have a 1571 since you'd need to be able to read both sides of the disk. It would probably be more of a vanity program than anything else.

 

However, a program that could read PC 3.5" floppies in a 1581 would be pretty sweet. I've been drooling over pictures of the 1581 since I was 6.

 

--Zero

[tyranthraxus]

The 64C and 128D are nice looking computers. I had the 64C in the late

80s and have wanted the rare 128D for years, look into getting one of

those if you do the ebay route.

 

My 2 cents is that you should absolutely buy a Fast Load Cartridge. It

is ESSENTIAL, the most common one is by Epyx and it will make your

system so much quicker.

 

You can usually spot the ports of Apple II games pretty quick. They

usually have few colours and are pretty crude although many are

enhanced graphic wise slightly over the Apple original. As for gameplay

that depends. As I recall the Apple had a two button stick so games that

use that second button had to be modified for the one button 64. As is

often the case its really up to programmer whether this was done well.

 

John

[Paul Slocum]

I'll throw in my 2 cents:

 

2. What is the Plus/4?  Is it compatable with c-64 software?  Is it worth looking into?

 

The Plus/4 sucks. I always wanted one and finally got a couple of them a a few years ago. They're C64's without sprites and without a SID. The built-in software is a joke. They're just boring. I have a LOT of vintage computers and I love them dearly, but those two pieces of crap went right onto Ebay! I still have a Mattel Aquarius.

 

3. What do I need if I just want to play games (let's forget tape stuff for now)?  A system, a disk drive, and a monitor right?  Do I need any memory upgrades or things of that nature?  What about speech (Was there a seperate add on for that?).

 

You really need a disk drive and/or a Star Commander cable. I built one of the cables and it was easy and works great. Of course you can download and play tons of games on your 64 with it, but also I was able to transfer the first programs I ever wrote to the PC for more stable storage. The Star Commander cable can also emulate a disk drive for your C64, although I haven't tried this yet (I've just used it to hook up the disk drive to the PC.)

 

http://members.surfeu.fi/1541/

 

There are several speech cartridges. I have the Magic Voice cart which is pretty cool. It adds voice to Gorf and is very easy to program.

 

4.  When it comes to comparing Apple IIe games to C-64 games, how do they compare?  Obviously the graphics and sound are better on the C-64, but what about the gameplay?  Is he C-64 surperior in all categories?

 

I played a lot of the same games on Apple and C64, and the gameplay was almost always about equal. The one big advantage of the Apple was that most of them had the 80 column card. I don't think the C64 ever had 80 column support (although the 128 did).

 

And about the SX64: I've heard that some cartridges don't fit.

 

-Paul

[chrisbid]

hey scooter,

 

diid you see that CX64 they had at crazy burts on bethel road?

 

i saw that a few times myself, and figured 100 bucks was a good deal, but its out of my price range, plus my apartment doesnt have much space for me to starat a vintage computer collection

[Keir]

80 columns is also good for text adventures, though I don't know how many of them support it. Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, Leather Godesses of Phobos and at least one other do.

 

I may have an extra Fast Load cart I could trade you.

[Rockin' Kat]

I have an SX-64. It cost me about $50 on E-bay. I'd say a good price range is about $50 to $175 depending on the condition of the system.....mine wasn't as pretty as some others but it works great and has a great picture.

 

To be honest I rarely touch my SX-64 anymore. Havn't done anything much with it since my very last day of highschool when I took it in and set it up under the stairs on a table to show off to friends and passers by.... which was fun, got a lotta WTF's and let people play games on it.

 

I've been thinking about selling it on but I've also been thinking I might take it with me next time I go to Spokane.

 

I use my C64 much more... I need to get one of my 1581's repaired so I can get back to copying games between MS DOS format floppies and CBM-format floppies and then writing the images to 1541(using special c64 utility software).

 

I've also been thinking about getting a C128 and selling my C64, but for now I'm just happy with the 64 since there are so few 128 specific game versions

[Bivotar]

4. When it comes to comparing Apple IIe games to C-64 games, how do they compare? Obviously the graphics and sound are better on the C-64, but what about the gameplay? Is he C-64 surperior in all categories?  

 

There is NO comparison between the Apple IIe games and C64. C64 wins hands down. It's like comparing the Channel F to 2600 (with 2600 being the C64). Apple IIe has much lower resolution in the color graphics mode, and it is appearantly very limited on the number of colors in graphics mode. Many Apple games have like 4 colors on screen at a time, where C64 can do 16, with higher res. And Apple seems MUCH slower.

 

I have both, but the Apple is more like a novelty and reminder of high school "programming" classes for me. The C64 has some kick ass games.

 

No comparison at all.

[Paul Slocum]

I don't think the resolution differences are very noticeable. It's basically 140x192 vs 160x200. And the prevalence of the Apple memory expansion meant that the Apple II got some games that the C64 never got like Thexder. I had a C64 and my friend had the Apple. We both had Hard Hat Mack, Marble Madness, Beyond Wolfenstein, Spy vs. Spy, Conan, Narnia, Karateka, and some others. Aside from the color and sound, gameplay was almost the same on those titles. And I was often impressed at what they were able to do with the limited sound and color. Wolfenstein still talks on the Apple.

 

-Paul

[Mayhem]

Boot up a C64 emulator (or the real thing), plug in "Turrican", "Io", "Uridium", "Turbocharge", "Mayhem in Monsterland", "Armalyte" or "Myth" and tell me the Apple II could do any of that

 

Oh and Paul, ever tried the Magic Voice with Wizard of Wor? It supports that too...

 

There's no much to add over what's already been said. Just aim for a breadbin (that's the older brown version) of the C64 as the SID chip is theoretically "better" (you can hear the sampled sound on it!).

 

http://sta.c64.org

 

Where you can download Star Commander from, and also order the cable to connect a 1541 to the PC to transfer software. If you have a Pentium PC, you'll most likely need a XE type cable. It is also preferable to run Star Com as close to DOS as possible. One reason I keep my 486 around as it acts as a StarCom server/permanent transfer machine. And yes, I own multiple disc drives for this purpose

 

It is also damn easy that way to get dumps of discs and carts onto the PC for manipulation and use in emulators and for people to download...

 

Oh if anyone's interested, I still have quite a bit of spare C64 stuff for sale at here http://www.mayhem64.co.uk/c64haves.htm