RGB/YPbPr Intellivision Thoughts

[the_crayon_king]

@Cereal510 Well you can test the output of Red directly then. You should have some waveform there.

If not then disconnect your outputs from the kit and test again.

If still no signal then I would assume an error in one of those two spots.

[Cereal510]

4 hours ago, the_crayon_king said:

@Cereal510 Well you can test the output of Red directly then. You should have some waveform there.

If not then disconnect your outputs from the kit and test again.

If still no signal then I would assume an error in one of those two spots.

Huzzah! It was something so dumb. Threw on the jewlers loop and checked the lines again. There was a small solder ball that must have dislodged from somewhere when i put the unit back together, and that was shorting red to ground intermittently.

 

Thank you so much for your help and time @the_crayon_king

[the_crayon_king]

@Cereal510 I'm just glad the problem wasn't on the board and that it was simple enough for you to resolve. 

These things are hard for me to put together by hand. 

[the_crayon_king]

This has RGB, S-Video, and Composite. (RF has been replaced with composite). Channel switch replaced with color pallet selection. 

 

Anyway, basically I have learned what NOT to do when doing this kind of install.

See that S-Video jack next to the power cable? Yea don't put that there. It may have been ok if I had moved it a little to the right. 

See the red RCA? It is a mm or two too far to the right so I had to cut the EMF shielding; so don't do that either. 

 

If you are trying to do a ton of outputs it may be better to use the top shell instead of the bottom.

Else cut the EMF shield to give yourself more room on the bottom. If I had done that from the start this would have turned out a lot better. 

 

I should note there is nothing wrong with the console or anything; just the placement is not ideal for installation.

Now that I know what not to do I will be able to do this very easily in the future. 

 

 

If you have the expansion board and want to use the RF hole for composite then:

• cut the 4 leads that go to the RF box (cut both ends of the leads just to mitigate chance of shorts)
• lift off the RF modulator cover
• cut the wire going to the RF RCA
• desolder the RCA hole so that you can place a wire in there
• cut anything out [besides the RCA connection] that is in your way
• then add the wire and you can snake it out of one of the holes in the top shell of the RCA cover (just turn it 180 degrees from how it was).

 

I think going forward I will just add the expansion board to any console I do; it seems like it could be worth the effort if you want RGB for recording and Composite/S-Video for playing on a CRT or something. 

Edited September 8, 2021 by the_crayon_king

[+-^CrossBow^-]

I've yet to install the expansion boards I ordered but will eventually. I did order up the last 4 of the current V5 you had on the 'bay last week and got them in yesterday so thanks again for the quick shipping. You boards are all I have to go on for now as the chip shortage is preventing me from getting any more of Yannick's made up.

 

Now...to your install.

 

I install all of the AV jacks on the bottom shell but use a template so my spacing is pretty darn even. The next trick? Don't reinstall that bottom large RF shield. I remove it to do the work and don't put it back on. I just install the top smaller shield as it doesn't interfere and gives you the room you need.

 

And with yours and Yannick's boards, I've installed the RGB boards by simply attaching them to the top of the GROM IC chip using my industrial velcro. If I attach the RGB in place of where the RF was, then I can place your board right where the RF modulator used to be and solder the 9-pin jack upside down along the ground traces as they line up pretty well on the model 1. Keeps the wiring short, and everything to the mainboard for the RGB side. 

 

Another option that one of my clients asked me about, but hasn't been in touch with me lately on. Is to try and use one of the newer made 3D printed Nintendo style AV multiouts. There are pins for audio, composite, s-video, and RGB in one connection and cable type that can be used. But as the Nintendo multiout is a large connector, it might have to be done on the top shell. I just prefer to try and keep that faux wood grain looking as good as possible LOL!

 

[mattyv316]

I ordered an updated v5 board for my SSVA and wanted to see if I could have RGB connected as well as component. I was thinking of using the channel selector for the component switch/selector. Has anyone tried this configuration, or see any problems with it?

[+-^CrossBow^-]

8 minutes ago, mattyv316 said:

I ordered an updated v5 board for my SSVA and wanted to see if I could have RGB connected as well as component. I was thinking of using the channel selector for the component switch/selector. Has anyone tried this configuration, or see any problems with it?

Works just fine. Did it on a model 1 just over a month ago. It already had a composite mod in it. I removed that, added in 2 more holes and swapped out all the RCAs for new component ones. Removed the RF and added the RGB there. Re wired the channel select on the bottom to switch between the component and RGB.

 

[mattyv316]

Perfect. Thank you for the quick response

[the_crayon_king]

5 hours ago, -^CrossBow^- said:

I've yet to install the expansion boards I ordered but will eventually. I did order up the last 4 of the current V5 you had on the 'bay last week and got them in yesterday so thanks again for the quick shipping. You boards are all I have to go on for now as the chip shortage is preventing me from getting any more of Yannick's made up.

 

Now...to your install.

 

I install all of the AV jacks on the bottom shell but use a template so my spacing is pretty darn even. The next trick? Don't reinstall that bottom large RF shield. I remove it to do the work and don't put it back on. I just install the top smaller shield as it doesn't interfere and gives you the room you need.

 

And with yours and Yannick's boards, I've installed the RGB boards by simply attaching them to the top of the GROM IC chip using my industrial velcro. If I attach the RGB in place of where the RF was, then I can place your board right where the RF modulator used to be and solder the 9-pin jack upside down along the ground traces as they line up pretty well on the model 1. Keeps the wiring short, and everything to the mainboard for the RGB side. 

 

Another option that one of my clients asked me about, but hasn't been in touch with me lately on. Is to try and use one of the newer made 3D printed Nintendo style AV multiouts. There are pins for audio, composite, s-video, and RGB in one connection and cable type that can be used. But as the Nintendo multiout is a large connector, it might have to be done on the top shell. I just prefer to try and keep that faux wood grain looking as good as possible LOL!

 

Yannick's boards are missing components? I bet you could order without the out of stock parts and then just hand populate what is missing. Which is what I do for these V5 boards. I remember you saying you weren't set up for SMD soldering but besides a magnifying arm w/ light and a J-tip soldering iron I don't have any special tools for SMD soldering. I mean if these ever sold in significant numbers I would do solder paste and a solder oven or a pick an place machine. The parts I use can actually be ordered completely through the manufacture but the price for the CPLD and the DAC (the missing parts) would increase the price of the board by around 20$ or more which is why I don't do that. 

 

So you don't need the bottom shell? I only add them because of the minor amount of moisture protection; a little is better than none. 

 

I too have industrial velcro; I keep using hot glue for reasons. 

 

My placement is largely arbitrary. I do like having stuff accessible in case of further modding. Like say adding the expansion board. I think mostly I picked a spot the first time I installed one of these and I don't like to change things. Replacing the RF area is excellent if you intend to replace the hole with something. I have to have a more generalized methodology because these "kits" as it were function in other consoles and that plastic 8 pin was the most versatile option. 

 

A multiout would be good. I am starting to wonder if I could just replace the RF mod entirely with a kit. So make a larger kit that sits in the footprint of the RF modulator. I swear I was going to do that initially and then somebody talked me out of it... I may break out the ol caliper and look into it. The main issue would be finding some sort of standoff that can fill the holes left by the RF mod.

 

Anyways, good info as always thanks 
----------------------------------------------------------------------

@mattyv316 I keep cutting the switch trace that goes to the RF mod. If you remove the RF mod entirely then you won't need to. There is already a ground there so you only need to run the non-ground connection to the switch. That would be the non-square one under "YPBPR" on the kit. You probably already knew that I am just adding info for those that may stumble upon this. 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

I think I am going to make a video in the next few days. There is just too much information to try to explain in a text dump when it comes to installing. Crossbow's video is what I keep pointing people towards but I really should have my own video that is geared more towards basic installs given what is in the kit. 

Edited September 9, 2021 by the_crayon_king

[the_crayon_king]

So update. For installing RGB, S-Video, and Composite in a model 1 Intellivision this is how I am going to do it:

Left to right: RGB, S-Video, L/R dual mono, Composite (RF replaced with composite), Pallet switch.

Just do as Crossbow said and remove the bottom metal shielding (black) then space is not an issue.  

 

Further general tips would be to just bend the top shell metal tabs over instead of resoldering it in place. 

This saves alot of time and if you ever need to rework the mod then it will be far easier to get at. 

The top plastic plate holds everything tight so really you probably don't even need to bend the tabs at all.
 

This console specifically has an issue where it will sometimes show a glitchy screen when you power the console up until you hit reset.

Then it acts like normal until a hard power off. If anyone knows what the deal is with that I would love to know. 

This console has had the problematic transistors and resistor replaced. I am tempted to change out the capacitors to see if that alleviates the issue (I suspect the issue is capacitor related). 

 

[+-^CrossBow^-]

On 9/18/2021 at 10:02 PM, the_crayon_king said:

So update. For installing RGB, S-Video, and Composite in a model 1 Intellivision this is how I am going to do it:

Left to right: RGB, S-Video, L/R dual mono, Composite (RF replaced with composite), Pallet switch.

Just do as Crossbow said and remove the bottom metal shielding (black) then space is not an issue.  

 

Further general tips would be to just bend the top shell metal tabs over instead of resoldering it in place. 

This saves alot of time and if you ever need to rework the mod then it will be far easier to get at. 

The top plastic plate holds everything tight so really you probably don't even need to bend the tabs at all.
 

This console specifically has an issue where it will sometimes show a glitchy screen when you power the console up until you hit reset.

Then it acts like normal until a hard power off. If anyone knows what the deal is with that I would love to know. 

This console has had the problematic transistors and resistor replaced. I am tempted to change out the capacitors to see if that alleviates the issue (I suspect the issue is capacitor related). 

 

Glitchy until to do a reset? Hmm.. have you checked the clock signal value from pin10 at the cartridge port? Might be that the variable cap a C2 needs a minor tweak And yes that is what I was talking about in regards to installing the jacks. However, you don't have to space the RCAs that far apart. I usually measure mine out at 3/4 inch centers from each other. Also, that boss post that is near the RF output can be removed completely as NOTHING actually attaches to that and I suspect it was only put there for either some future use thing, or as some additional support that was never actually completed. Doing that and not using that bottom (Actually the top) black RF shield, you pretty much have the entire section of space from the left all the way to the RF modulator opening at that point.

 

As you effectively disabled the RF by modifying the RCA to be composite, why didn't you just repurpose the channel select switch for palette instead of adding in another? That would have been less work. I don't even thing you need to cut any traces on the channel select switch on the model 1 as I don't recall having to when I did a model 1 last with your board? 

 

[mr_me]

On 9/18/2021 at 11:02 PM, the_crayon_king said:

This console specifically has an issue where it will sometimes show a glitchy screen when you power the console up until you hit reset.

Then it acts like normal until a hard power off. If anyone knows what the deal is with that I would love to know. 

This console has had the problematic transistors and resistor replaced. I am tempted to change out the capacitors to see if that alleviates the issue (I suspect the issue is capacitor related). 

This thread talks about a reset capacitor at c26.

https://atariage.com/forums/topic/318151-cartridge-port-conundrum/

 

[the_crayon_king]

On 9/20/2021 at 12:11 PM, -^CrossBow^- said:

Glitchy until to do a reset? Hmm.. have you checked the clock signal value from pin10 at the cartridge port? Might be that the variable cap a C2 needs a minor tweak And yes that is what I was talking about in regards to installing the jacks. However, you don't have to space the RCAs that far apart. I usually measure mine out at 3/4 inch centers from each other. Also, that boss post that is near the RF output can be removed completely as NOTHING actually attaches to that and I suspect it was only put there for either some future use thing, or as some additional support that was never actually completed. Doing that and not using that bottom (Actually the top) black RF shield, you pretty much have the entire section of space from the left all the way to the RF modulator opening at that point.

 

As you effectively disabled the RF by modifying the RCA to be composite, why didn't you just repurpose the channel select switch for palette instead of adding in another? That would have been less work. I don't even thing you need to cut any traces on the channel select switch on the model 1 as I don't recall having to when I did a model 1 last with your board? 

 

Lots of good questions/info there.

 

This is on 3/4in centers. Which is what my jig is. Maybe the camera is making it look weird? 

I measured it with a ruler just now to double check. 

 

I have no idea about the clock/variable capacitor situation. Something like that sounds relevant. I changed out all the standard electrolytic capacitors including the bipolar one that is normally on the reset switch (C26?). 

 

I didn't use that RF switch because it is not a great action on this specific console (and a few of the others).  

There is a slight lever feel when switching RF because it has such a long arm. If you have a gummy rf or loose RF switch it makes it feel like its going to fly apart.

 

I don't know what else is on that trace (the one going to RF) so I just cut it when I do use it. 

 

@mr_me

I replaced all the capacitors (except the one on RF which I just removed). So C26 has a fresh capacitor so that can't be it. 

 

Edited September 22, 2021 by the_crayon_king

[+-^CrossBow^-]

I take the channel select switch apart, clean it up really good. Reform the inner leaf springs to tighten the connection and apply some dielectric grease into it for smooth action and to help prevent further corrosion on those contacts in the future. If you don't do this, then yes that RF switch can be iffy otherwise. And in looking at my template for the 7800 and 5200 RCAs, it looks like I actually have those on just slightly over 1/2 inch centers as they are tighter together on those consoles per my templates. But I'm using the 3/4" on the Intellivision template I have. So yeah, it was likely the angle of the shot making those RCAs appear to be further apart. 

 

The variable cap isn't something that is replaced. It can be tuned using a small flatblade driver. It can be adjusted without having to remove the mainboard or RF shielding as there is a hole to access it from both sides of the board and shielding. I test all the ones that come through by attaching my freq counter to pin10 and ground with the MTE test cart running. You can check it directly at the clk pin off the color chip too, but the furthest reach for it at the cartridge slot pin 10 so I find that to be the best way to measure and adjust. Not saying it is the issue you were talking about specifically, but I've had one or two that just gave me a black screen and would magically work again once I tweaked that C2 cap a little and readjusted it back to spec.

 

[+-^CrossBow^-]

Did a YT stream today where I installed @the_crayon_king's expansion board but paired it with one of Yannick's RGB boards instead. It does work, kinda. Once all connected up the issue is that the vsync is too far off and results in a skewed image along the top that actually encroaches into the game play area and not really usable. Does it on both composite and the s-video. That said, without that issue the rest of the image resulted in the best composite image I've seen from an intellivision console bar none. The s-video looked even more sharp through my little CRT but still had the skewing along the top 1/6th of the image. 

 

However, in testing it just now on my actual AV setup in the game room, that skewing is not present and the composite and s-video image are completely stable. The only issue I have is that there is very defined vertical bars or jail bars on the s-video image.

 

Since I was using Crayon's expansion board with Yannick's RGB I was only interested in using the composite and s-video output side. So I only had to attach +5, Gnd, and the RGB and sync outputs from Yannick's to the RGB input on Crayon's board. The other required change was I still had to solder on the clock signal wire from off of Pin 15 of the Color IC chip to the expansion board. If you pair it all with Crayon's board then quite a bit more gets soldered up and used but at least in this case it wasn't too much work at all and while not working well on my PVM crt, it does work well on my actual AV setup in the game room.

 

So in a nutshell the expansion board does work and works well, but likely will only provide consistent results across all displays when paired with Crayon King's v5 RGB output board. I don't know about Yannick's newer v2 board that does more changes to the sync signal as I don't have access to those yet but do intend to test it. Since I have working results with my AV setup in the game room at least, I'm likely to keep this expansion board installed even if the composite and s-video doesn't work on CRTs in this setup. 

 

 

[+-^CrossBow^-]

Since the composite and s-video do actually work without issues on my actual AV setup in the game room, I went ahead and permanently installed the s-video jack. Was just able to shoehorn it next to my RCA jacks off to the left. But I had to use the s-video panel mount that @the_crayon_king includes in his kits in order to fit in that spot. Still tight and 'fun' to solder to LOL. But it came out okay. Yes the RCAs are off kilter, this is my personal SVA I've used over the years (read abused) for upgrade testing and the like and I didn't have my templates or my proper bits back when I installed these RCAs back then that I do now. 

 

[the_crayon_king]

@-^CrossBow^- if those jailbars are evenly spaced then they are probably caused by the clock bleeding into the video lines. Sometimes moving the wiring so it is not ran parallel with kits is enough to fix it. Othertimes the boards may need to be moved entirely.

 

I haven't seen any jailbars when running through my RGB kit then into S-Video. 

 

[+-^CrossBow^-]

Well the clock is the only input wire I have along that side of the board since I'm not using the RGB from it as that goes through Yannick's board in this case. Relocating the board, there is only one other spot I can move it to on this Intelly and that is to mount it on top of the sound IC at that point. But that would mean I have longer input and output wires that could easily pick up even more additional noise although the clock signal wire would be shorter at that point. Remember I attached my clock input from off of R4 just under the Sys RAM IC U2. At first I had it attached off pin10 but the frequency at that location was too weak as the colors weren't strong on the output and occasionally it went to black and white as you may remember in my live stream on it. Attached off the left side of R4 is direct to pin 15 off the color IC so was the next closest spot I could get to to run that wire.

[the_crayon_king]

 

This is a first draft of "Orange Peel". 3.2X1.3 inches.

 

This board will put out RGB, S-Video, and Composite by default.

It will be cheaper than the V5 board but will not put out component (I may make an addon board for Pb and Pr)

 

This is only "cheaper" because it will require far less time for me to make; as far as cost (in parts) it is slightly more than V5. 

 

Notice the two jumpers "COLSEL" and "EXT" these will do what they did on the prior boards. 

There will also be two places for clock "XC" and "CLK". On the Intellivision you can just use either clock spot.  

Further there are two "PAL" jumpers and one "NTSC"; set these according to your region. 

To be clear NTSC region will only need to set the "NTSC" jumper. 

PAL regions will have to set both "PAL" jumpers and the "EXT" jumper.

COLSEL will change between two color pallets.

 

The are three through holes labeled "RB", "GB", and "BB". These are spots that can be used to bypass the 75 ohm resistors so that you can use a Genesis cable if desired. [Just FYI I couldn't do that on the V5 because that DAC required pulldowns not series resistors].

 

If you just want RGB this should be one of the cheapest things I can feasibly make. If you want Composite or S-Video in addition to RGB that will costs a few dollars more. Keep in mind Composite and S-Video are enabled regardless; so if you wanted to source your own parts at a later time you can. 

 

I haven't priced this out yet but I would expect the RGB only setup to be around 30$ and closer to 35$ for RGB, S-Video and Composite.

I would expect this to be visually similar to the V5. The goal would be for it to be visually identical but I won't know until I test this.

 

 

 

 

Assuming there are no major issues I should have these for sale by January.

 

I know this is kind of a word dump but let me know if you have any questions or comments.

I am kind of polling for interest since I am not sure there is enough demand left for me to order these in a significant quality. 

Edited November 23, 2021 by the_crayon_king

[+Rick Reynolds]

6 hours ago, the_crayon_king said:

I know this is kind of a word dump but let me know if you have any questions or comments.

I am kind of polling for interest since I am not sure there is enough demand left for me to order these in a significant quality. 

 

I'm definitely interested in this new board.

[+-^CrossBow^-]

22 hours ago, the_crayon_king said:

I know this is kind of a word dump but let me know if you have any questions or comments.

I am kind of polling for interest since I am not sure there is enough demand left for me to order these in a significant quality. 

Would it be possible/better instead of using the A,B,C... labels on the input side to just put the pin numbers those pads attach to on U10? 

 

[the_crayon_king]

3 hours ago, -^CrossBow^- said:

Would it be possible/better instead of using the A,B,C... labels on the input side to just put the pin numbers those pads attach to on U10? 

 

I can't change the labels to the pin numbers because this still can work on other consoles which would have different pin numbers. 

I think the most practical thing I could do would be to make a breakout for the AY-3-8915. 

 

Here is a rough example:

 

For this setup you would remove the 8915; put this in its place and then resolder the 8915 on top (if you plan to use RF). Otherwise you could leave the 8915 off entirely.

Then you would have 1:1 labels for everything. 

 

I am open to other ideas if anyone has any but this seems like a good way to go IMO.

 

Of course this is only a practical thing to do if you have a socketed 8915. 

 

I could instead make a RGB board that takes up the 8915 spot entirely and would be exclusively Intellivision.

Having all the pins on one side and then putting wires (or pressure) on the other side would cause a lever type situation; which could damage the traces/through holes. 

 

Anyway, I am open to ideas about placement/design of how I can further simplify things. 

 

 

[+-^CrossBow^-]

Only problem with this break board in this form is that it looks too big to actually fit and clear the main crystal as that sits pretty close to the color IC. 

 

[the_crayon_king]

17 hours ago, -^CrossBow^- said:

Only problem with this break board in this form is that it looks too big to actually fit and clear the main crystal as that sits pretty close to the color IC. 

 

 

 

What about this? It would sit under the AY-3-8900 (since that exists on all models).

All the pads are written 1:1 as where they should go on the RGB kit. 

 

Unfortunately, I cannot make the wire connection points through hole.

 

I could make a AY-3-8915 connector the same way but as you noted it has the clock to worry about. 

Edited November 26, 2021 by the_crayon_king

[the_crayon_king]

I am assuming these will work:

https://oshpark.com/shared_projects/XIPKocHF

https://oshpark.com/shared_projects/scKXo5S8

 

This can be used with any RGB Intellivison mod (just substitute A for V5, B for V4, etc. [they are in order]). This way the names will be 1:1 with what the are on the board and in the same order. 

So use a ribbon cable and connect to the spots; you make have to put a bend in the cable but otherwise it should be straightforward. 

 

When I start selling the alternative kit then I will start adding both of these in with the either kit per order.

You would use one or the other not both; just whichever is more in line with your installation placement.

I didn't make one that uses the top of the the ICs because I do not attach there on either model.

I am assuming I put them in the correct order but its hard when you are flipping the pins respective to their normal orientation.

These boards are not required; just something that should simplify the connection process. 

 

This is the finalized version of the new board. I may have to adjust three resistor values but otherwise I don't see anything right off the bat that needs changed. 

I did through holes and solder pads since the board was already going to be bloated anyway. 

Edited November 27, 2021 by the_crayon_king