RGB/YPbPr Intellivision Thoughts

[mattyv316]

I was able to install an Orange Peel board last night in my SSVA, so I can compare it against the Baked Potato v5 I have in my Intv III. I took a bunch of pics, so I just zipped them and attached. Too many to embed in the post.

The 2 devices I tested with are the RT5x and the OSSC. Inputs I tested are SCART and Genesis 2 HD Retrovision component cables.

Install was done with a Genesis 2 9 pin mini-din

Here are a few notes:

 

Baked Potato
Rt5x
  * SCART looks good
  * Genesis 2 HD Retrovision Component:
     Looks good, but will occasionally have distorted colors on occasional resets (See pics)

OSSC
  * SCART looks good
  * Genesis 2 HD Retrovision Component:
     Looks good

Orange Peel
Rt5x
  * SCART looks good for the most part.
     Did notice the occasional distortion in the upper right on some games (See pics)

  * Genesis 2 HD Retrovision Component:
     good for the most part. Some games have distorted colors on boot, but was able to get it to look normal by hitting reset a couple times. (See pics)

OSSC
  * SCART looks good
  * Genesis 2 HD Retrovision Component:
     OSSC screen recognizes the component input, but no display on TV

BP - OP - RT5x - OSSC.zip

[leonk]

Thanks for the comparison. It seems that Baked Potato is more baked than Orange Peel.     So if you want just RGB, you can't go wrong with Baked Potato.

[+-^CrossBow^-]

47 minutes ago, mattyv316 said:

I was able to install an Orange Peel board last night in my SSVA, so I can compare it against the Baked Potato v5 I have in my Intv III. I took a bunch of pics, so I just zipped them and attached. Too many to embed in the post.

The 2 devices I tested with are the RT5x and the OSSC. Inputs I tested are SCART and Genesis 2 HD Retrovision component cables.

Install was done with a Genesis 2 9 pin mini-din

Here are a few notes:

 

Baked Potato
Rt5x
  * SCART looks good
  * Genesis 2 HD Retrovision Component:
     Looks good, but will occasionally have distorted colors on occasional resets (See pics)

OSSC
  * SCART looks good
  * Genesis 2 HD Retrovision Component:
     Looks good

Orange Peel
Rt5x
  * SCART looks good for the most part.
     Did notice the occasional distortion in the upper right on some games (See pics)

  * Genesis 2 HD Retrovision Component:
     good for the most part. Some games have distorted colors on boot, but was able to get it to look normal by hitting reset a couple times. (See pics)

OSSC
  * SCART looks good
  * Genesis 2 HD Retrovision Component:
     OSSC screen recognizes the component input, but no display on TV

BP - OP - RT5x - OSSC.zip 46.38 MB · 2 downloads

Interesting...the distortion through the RT5x is similar to what I've seen with Yannick's when his was tested on a Tink5x. But... it was also possible to press reset on the Intellivision and that slight curl would go away. Have you tried that?

 

Also, how did you test the Baker v5 with HDRetrovision cables? Do you have the expansion board on that as well I assume?

 

[mattyv316]

I tested so many combinations, that I do not remember if I tried hitting reset when I saw distortion on the 5x. Will need to re-test with that suggestion, thanks.

As for the Baked Potato v5 with HD Retrovision, I did not have any expansion.  I just hooked the v5 directly up to the min-din 9 the way I always do and it seemed to work.

[leonk]

23 minutes ago, mattyv316 said:

I tested so many combinations, that I do not remember if I tried hitting reset when I saw distortion on the 5x. Will need to re-test with that suggestion, thanks.

As for the Baked Potato v5 with HD Retrovision, I did not have any expansion.  I just hooked the v5 directly up to the min-din 9 the way I always do and it seemed to work.

I wonder what you used for sync with baked potato when running HD Retrovision cables.  Did you run the csync pin to the cvideo pin on the 9 pin miniDIN?  That's the only way I can see it working.

[mattyv316]

4 minutes ago, leonk said:

I wonder what you used for sync with baked potato when running HD Retrovision cables.  Did you run the csync pin to the cvideo pin on the 9 pin miniDIN?  That's the only way I can see it working.

Yes, I usually have sync from the board go to sync and composite video of the mini-din.

That is how I had all my Fred K board wired, so I did the same when I installed all the Crayola mods.

Edited December 17, 2021 by mattyv316

[the_crayon_king]

The timing correction I did is correct I am certain of that much since I spent a stupid amount of time figuring that out.

Baked Potato and Orange Peel have the same exact timing/sync correction. It is interesting they would be different at all.

 

@mattyv316  There was some kind of issue with C-sync if not terminated. Try running Y as your sync on the Orange Peel board (for OSSC) and see if that corrects everything.

 

I have been running directly through the OSSC (RGB) or through my CRT (Y/C and CV) with no weirdness.

 

 

[mattyv316]

On 12/16/2021 at 10:21 PM, the_crayon_king said:

The timing correction I did is correct I am certain of that much since I spent a stupid amount of time figuring that out.

Baked Potato and Orange Peel have the same exact timing/sync correction. It is interesting they would be different at all.

 

@mattyv316  There was some kind of issue with C-sync if not terminated. Try running Y as your sync on the Orange Peel board (for OSSC) and see if that corrects everything.

 

I have been running directly through the OSSC (RGB) or through my CRT (Y/C and CV) with no weirdness.

 

 

@the_crayon_king I moved sync to the Y pad of Orange Peel as suggested and that solved my issue using the HD Retrovision component cable on the OSSC. Thanks for the suggestion. Do you see any problem with me leaving it connected this way?

[the_crayon_king]

@mattyv316

I am a bit confused since I was of the understanding that the HD-Retrovision doesn't work at all with C-sync (which is not the same as sync on composite video).

I wouldn't think it would work with Y either. I thought it only worked with Composite video.

 

Does using Y as sync fix the weirdness you were getting with the 5X and OSSC over RGB ?

 

At any rate Y, CV, or S can be used as sync safely. The only issue would be hooking Y up to run as sync AND running having S-Video connected at the same time; Or doing the same thing with Composite video. 

That wouldn't damage anything; just lower the brightness. 

 

[leonk]

3 minutes ago, the_crayon_king said:

@mattyv316

I am a bit confused since I was of the understanding that the HD-Retrovision doesn't work at all with C-sync (which is not the same as sync on composite video).

I wouldn't think it would work with Y either. I thought it only worked with Composite video.

HD Retrovision needs 75 ohm terminated (0.3Vpp) sync.  It uses CVideo for sync on "tested consoles" because csync is such a mess across RGB amp and cable makers and Y doesn't exist on some consoles (e.g. Genesis). The only guaranteed sync signal to always be correct across multiple consoles is CVideo.  HDR doesn't use the composite video or luma components of those signals, it just needs the sync info.  So, HDR will work with Y and C-sync as long as they follow the CVideo electrical standard.  

[the_crayon_king]

6 hours ago, leonk said:

HD Retrovision needs 75 ohm terminated (0.3Vpp) sync.  It uses CVideo for sync on "tested consoles" because csync is such a mess across RGB amp and cable makers and Y doesn't exist on some consoles (e.g. Genesis). The only guaranteed sync signal to always be correct across multiple consoles is CVideo.  HDR doesn't use the composite video or luma components of those signals, it just needs the sync info.  So, HDR will work with Y and C-sync as long as they follow the CVideo electrical standard.  

That is what I had originally figured but I had heard reports that when C-sync was conditioned to match Cvideo that it didn't work.

I don't have a HDR and I haven't tried it personally. 

 

Why do people put resistors in cables when it is far easier to put them into a kit?

I mean rule of thumb is to put resistors close to the amp. So being in the kit should have been the default.

That is ignoring the Genesis since that is a special case; since RGB was already active sans resistors.

 

I can't match super close to 0.3 p-p since if someone has a resistor in their cable it will be too low. 

I also can't shoot out 3.3V or 5V p-p incase someone is using a straight through cable and needs C-sync 75 (or whatever we are calling non-TTL C-sync).
 

I feel like I have said all this before but I am not going to look it up. 

 

[leonk]

People put resistors into cables just when RGB on that console already existed from factory.  When RGB didn't exist (3DO, 2600, Coleco, Intellivision) I always advocate for nothing in the SCART cable.

 

But if people insist on using Genesis 2 ports, with Genesis 2 SCART cables, in non-Genesis 2 consoles; then I believe the output from that console (be it Intellivision or ColecoVision) should put out the same electronic characteristics as a Genesis 2.  And that's when we get into trouble.  In my opinion, it comes down to the modder educating the customer.  When people asked me to put a Genesis 2 port into their system, I educated them on the issue.  The only time I'm fine with Genesis 2 port is in PC Engine consoles; but for those, I personally modify the RGB amps and remove resistors/caps from the amp.

[mattyv316]

Ok, so I had a little time to play around with this more. @the_crayon_king yes changing to Y as sync fixes the weirdness I was seeing on the 5X and OSSC. Orange Peel seems to be working as well as Baked Potato v5 for me now. Thanks for that pointer.

As far as my install with Gen 2 pinout, I did a little more testing using Orange Peel and my SCART cables. I have 3 Retro Access scart cables I was testing with.

The first was a standard Genesis 2 cable that was converted when I had my first Fed K mod installed. This cable had caps removed and points bridged as well as the resistor shorted so there is no attenuation on the board of the cable. 

The second cable is a standard, unmodified Genesis 2 scart cable.

The third cable was a Genesis 2 cable ordered as a generic RGB mod cable from RA. This basically matches the 8-pin mini din cable they sell for generic RGB mods, but with a 9-pin mini din on the end.

Baked Potato and Orange Peel only work with the cable #3. I do not get any video when using cables #1 and #2 (even if I use the resistor bypassed RGB points on OP board). 

Cable #3 is the cable I have always had hooked up, so to me, I never had an issue using the Crayola mods. I can see why @-^CrossBow^- failed to get video when using the 9-pin at first. It depends on how the cable is setup.

Here are a couple pics of the top and bottom of the 3 cables and their boards.

   

@the_crayon_king, I completely understand that you support the 8-pin mini din install. It simplifies the application and removes problems that can be had by using the Genesis 2 mini-din, so I am not posting this info expecting any changes in your mods to accommodate the different 9-pin possibilities. I am just posting this info for anyone that may find it useful or interesting.

 

Edited December 30, 2021 by mattyv316

[+-^CrossBow^-]

4 minutes ago, mattyv316 said:

I can see why @-^CrossBow^- failed to get video when using the 9-pin at first. It depends on how the cable is setup.

What are you talking about? I've always managed to get my 9-pin cable working. The ONLY time I didn't was when I actually did remove the output resistors on Crayon's earlier v3 boards. Those would produce a super dark image. So in those instances I just left all the resistors in place and dealt with a slightly darker overall image than I had with Yannick's. However, bypassing those resistors on his newer boards works fine and doesn't require anything to be modified on the cable. 

 

All of my 9-pin cables I have on hand contain the caps and resistors in the SCART housing because they were all purchased for use with Sega systems through RGB. But other than that, I've always gotten an image from his boards with the exception of when I removed the resistors or his older v3 board that didn't work through my OSSC and only worked through one of the cheap SCART to HDMI converters. Yannick's v1 board was the same way. It wasn't until Crayon and Yannick redid the sync output that both his v5 and Yannick's v1.2 (now 2.0) boards started to work with the OSSC and everything else that I had. On the Tink2x SCART Yannick's sync still causes tearing along the top but thankfully it isn't present in any of the actual game field area when playing games. And any game that uses a black background, you can't see the tearing along the top. However, with my OSSC the tearing isn't present and that is what I use personally in my game room setup is my OSSC so I was fine with that. 

 

Unless you are talking about the use of HDRetrovision cables? I only tried it with his older v3 board using a separate composite board that I also had installed and that didn't get me anything through those cables. Since I've not yet installed one of his orange peel boards, I hadn't tried it with that nor with his v5 + expansion boards. But it seems that I should use the Luma output pad and essentially be wiring in as sync on luma? I'm pretty sure that would require removing components from the SCART cable to use that.

 

[the_crayon_king]

@mattyv316 Lol, I am like 80% sure you must have a resistor on your Sync line. You can't do that because with Y as sync it is only 0.3V p-p (which is around it's minimum) when terminated with a 75 ohm resistor.  Cept you would be adding 200-560 ohms in series when using a resistor on the sync line (which would drop the voltage significantly). 

I can be relatively sure this is the issue because otherwise you would get dark video not "no video". 

[mattyv316]

3 minutes ago, -^CrossBow^- said:

What are you talking about? I've always managed to get my 9-pin cable working. The ONLY time I didn't was when I actually did remove the output resistors on Crayon's earlier v3 boards.

 

Sorry for my confusion. I was thinking about when you removed the resistors. I remembered it was when you were installing the v3, but forgot it was when you removed the resistors. My bad

[+-^CrossBow^-]

2 minutes ago, mattyv316 said:

Sorry for my confusion. I was thinking about when you removed the resistors. I remembered it was when you were installing the v3, but forgot it was when you removed the resistors. My bad

Okay that makes a lot more sense LOL!

[the_crayon_king]

@mattyv316

Let me reiterate that using sync on Y or CV can't go through an additional resistor because it's already where it should be (0.3V p-p).

I say 'reiterate' because @-^CrossBow^- and I posted nearly at the same time; so you could have missed it. 

 

The problem on V1 was I used the "SYNC OUT" pin of the BH7236AF and apparently it sucks (some current issue?).

Honestly, whatever it is I did not think a pin named "SYNC OUT" would have issues with sync.  

Anyway, this new version just sends sync to the BH and to the output (instead of going through the encoder). 

If V1.1 still has an issue I will go to a different encoder and handbuild it before ordering this time (doh). 

 

If you are having an issue with sync and cannot for whatever reason use Y or CV for sync then I will send you (or anyone else) V1.1 (assuming it works better than V1).

Boards should be tested around the 4th of January.

 

 

[+KylJoy]

FYI, I FINALLY got one of these installed.  I've had a few "baked potato" versions here for a while but had not been able to get the time to experiment.

 

These work great with OSSC and look SWEET on my Commodore 1084S.

 

For me, I live with the audio hum so I can always revert to RF, just in case.    Would there be a way to filter out the noise without disconnecting the audio to the RF module?

[the_crayon_king]

54 minutes ago, KylJoy said:

FYI, I FINALLY got one of these installed.  I've had a few "baked potato" versions here for a while but had not been able to get the time to experiment.

 

These work great with OSSC and look SWEET on my Commodore 1084S.

 

For me, I live with the audio hum so I can always revert to RF, just in case.    Would there be a way to filter out the noise without disconnecting the audio to the RF module?

I am glad it looks good for you. 

 

So the noise issue for me was on the model 2. Is that what you are using?

 

Lift those three audio pins then send through two voltage follower op amps; one that would go to be output for the modded audio and another than would hook back to any of the holes where the 3 pins were lifted out of. I am assuming there is some series resistance on those lines and that would need replicated on the line going back into the RF circuit; and I guess the modded audio one too. I'm am not an 'audio' guy but some version of that would work.

 

I think @emerson was working on an audio circuit that would give psudeo stereo sound. Might want to incorporate something like that if you are already putting that much effort into sound. Still should only need two op amps; one to do whatever and the other to pass back through to RF.

 

Notes:

Should be able to estimate the series resistance (on the audio lines already) by lifting one of the lines and using a pull down until reaching a set point. So of the voltage is 5V on those lines (I am pretty sure it is). Then with a pot adjust till you have 2.5V p-p then measure the resistance of the pot to have the series resistance (just round to a standard value). 

 

[+KylJoy]

On 12/31/2021 at 6:29 PM, the_crayon_king said:

So the noise issue for me was on the model 2. Is that what you are using?

 

Yep.  Model II.  If I can get a stand-alone solution for the audio humm I'd apply it to my Emerson Arcadia 2001, too!  That one also looks great with your "Baked Potato" board, thank you much!

[the_crayon_king]

29 minutes ago, KylJoy said:

 

Yep.  Model II.  If I can get a stand-alone solution for the audio humm I'd apply it to my Emerson Arcadia 2001, too!  That one also looks great with your "Baked Potato" board, thank you much!

I'm glad you like the kits. I never noticed a hum on my Arcadia. 

 

 

I had built something that would work (if finished),. but it wouldn't allow external audio.

 

If I remember correctly the model 2 had a large 60hz wave that audio rode along.

I don't know if there is a purpose for that large 60hz wave (I don't see it on the model 1 so I guess not). 

It may be easier to correct the issue on the RF line and tap it as usual.

 

There are many different solutions for this type of noise I am just trying to thing of the best one for this situation. 

 

[+-^CrossBow^-]

15 hours ago, the_crayon_king said:

If I remember correctly the model 2 had a large 60hz wave that audio rode along.

I don't know if there is a purpose for that large 60hz wave (I don't see it on the model 1 so I guess not). 

It may be easier to correct the issue on the RF line and tap it as usual.

It just not occurred to me that I've only had the audio hum issue on one Intelly 2 install with the v5 Baked Potato board and I ran an additional set of resistors etc. directly off the pins to minimize it as best I could. But I've done like 4 Intelly 2 units and only had it happen the one time.

 

Then I got to thinking and this reply jogged my mind. Most of my clients do NOT send anything with their consoles since I can test the systems with out all the attachments. As a result, that means most of the Intelly 2 units I get do NOT come with the PSU as I just use my 5200 PSU to power them up. In fact, that is what I use with my personal Intellivision 2 when I use it.

 

I'd be curious if I've not usually heard it because I'm using a DC power supply and so that AC hum wouldn't be present in the system right? Might be work testing from someone else that has the issue to see if using a DC supply like from a 5200, reduces or eliminates that?

 

[the_crayon_king]

@-^CrossBow^-

I had thought the same things about the adapter but my DC adapter does the same thing.

I will look into this and see what I can figure out (soon).

 

In other news because of parts delay it will be around a month before I get more of the IC's I need (BH7236AF). 

I might look into alternative ICs instead of that encoder if I can source it from the US. 

This only effects "Orange Peel" not "Baked Potato" (since I have a ton of those parts). 

 

There will be a lot of down time waiting for these parts. So with the few I have on hand I will run testing against the other consoles. 

I am also on the lookout for other niche projects to take on that are in my wheelhouse. 

[the_crayon_king]

So on V1 of Orange Peel EXT and COLSEL functions are switched.

So if you have a PAL console jump COLSEL and if you wanna change pallets jump EXT. 

This was an oversight that I corrected early on but effects probably the first 10 of the Orange Peel boards. 

I had thought that I mentioned it earlier until @-^CrossBow^- mentioned he was having issues with pallet switching. 

 

The above info is backwards from how it was supposed to be and how the current V1.1 board works. So ignore this unless you have the first batch of boards.