RGB/YPbPr Intellivision Thoughts

[+-^CrossBow^-]

25 minutes ago, the_crayon_king said:

So on V1 of Orange Peel EXT and COLSEL functions are switched.

So if you have a PAL console jump COLSEL and if you wanna change pallets jump EXT. 

This was an oversight that I corrected early on but effects probably the first 10 of the Orange Peel boards. 

I had thought that I mentioned it earlier until @-^CrossBow^- mentioned he was having issues with pallet switching. 

 

The above info is backwards from how it was supposed to be and how the current V1.1 board works. So ignore this unless you have the first batch of boards. 

 

Yes that took care of it and I thank you for the quick reply to the issue! You very well might have mentioned it and I don't recall it and didn't go looking back through the thread. But I did check your current ebay listings for these boards to make sure I wasn't loosing my mind and had things setup right. BTW... does the NTSC jumper pad not really matter either? I totally forgot to solder that closed when I first installed the board and it was working and looking correct minus the palette not changing and then I noticed I didn't have the soldered down and did so but again can't really tell anything. I assume it assumes NTSC unless the PAL pads are closed and that might be why it didn't matter?

 

[the_crayon_king]

@-^CrossBow^-

The NTSC and PAL pads are for the encoder not the CPLD. I just added what the datasheet dictated.

They are there to select the filtering band for the encoder AFAIK (this would effect S-Video or composite); but I have not noticed a difference when using them or not.

 

This is just like the "F" pad being pulled low when not used. It SHOULD be done; the ramifications for not doing so seem to be little to none however. 

 

[leonk]

Had a chance to try out baked potato on an Intellivision 2 and I’m impressed. Will be putting it through it paces with RetroTink 5X and OSSC 5X shortly.

[leonk]

My only gripe is the 8 pin miniDIN PCB. The holes are too small. Luckily I have a bag of >100 ports/PCBs from doing NESRGB installs (I use a Nintendo multiAV port) so I used that instead. Also, I prefer installing the RGB amp above the Intellivision PCB rather than bellow, so the breakout PCB for the video IC was useless for me.

 

Apart from that, worked great and looks sweet on my PVM!

[the_crayon_king]

21 minutes ago, leonk said:

My only gripe is the 8 pin miniDIN PCB. The holes are too small. Luckily I have a bag of >100 ports/PCBs from doing NESRGB installs (I use a Nintendo multiAV port) so I used that instead. Also, I prefer installing the RGB amp above the Intellivision PCB rather than bellow, so the breakout PCB for the video IC was useless for me.

 

Apart from that, worked great and looks sweet on my PVM!

The IC breakouts are designed to simplify locating pins/pads for those that prefer that. They are so cheap that even if only 1 out of 10 people get use from them it is still worth it.

 

I will change the 8 pin breakout holes to 0.065mm larger at some point (to match the RGB board) but I don't imagine that you would get size issues from one and not the other.

If you use 26 AWG, twist the wire strands, and pre-tin the tips before insertion you shouldn't have any issues.

Instead of the ribbon wire like you are using it may be better to have a male to male jumper wire such as this.

 

At any rate, I am glad you like it. 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

To everyone else I am still patiently waiting for the parts to make more of the "Orange Peel" boards. I will make a large batch as soon as I get the parts in (within the week?)

 

If I haven't outlined it already the differences between the two boards are:

Baked Potato V5 - RGB/YPBPR video, Sync on Green capable, does not work with Genesis RGB cables (assuming they have resistors in the cable), does not work with HD retrovision cables (no composite for sync). 35$ plus shipping.  

Orange Peel V1.1 - RGB/Composite/S-Video, works with Genesis cables (by using the bypass pads [RB, GB, BB]), works with HD Retrovision cables (since it has composite). 30$ plus shipping 

 

Both have PAL/NTSC functionality, and a pallet switch. 

Video should technically be more accurate (to what I programed) on Baked Potato but from the captures they have seemed more or less identical.

 

I think Orange Peel is going to be the primary board people buy from here on out because its pros far outweigh it's cons. Keep it mind it also has the same ability to be flashed for those other consoles just like Baked Potato.

 

I hope to be working on more complicated FPGA based stuff in the near future (time permitting). I don't anticipate any major future changes for the Intellivison boards. 

[leonk]

The problem with the 8 pin miniDIN PCB is not the holes for the wires, it's the holes for the port.  All these port are made in China and pin position varies port to port. Even when the PCB and port are in front of your eyes, it's almost impossible to make it fit.  It's a struggle to keep trying to straighten the pins on the port because the tolerance on the PCB is so tight.

 

As for HD Retrovision cables not working on Potato, I don't think that's accurate. It should.  The biggest issue is that there is no revision that's made for 8 pin miniDIN.  So people need to create custom pigtails that go from one of the other cables (Like what they officially did for Neo Geo support)  CSync from Potato should work as CVideo pin for the cables.

[leonk]

I can confirm that both RetroTink 5X and OSSC in 5X support baked potato using default options. I see no noise, dropped frames, everything just works!

 

[the_crayon_king]

Its the holes on the PCB. They are slightly out of alignment on the bottom two pins.

I ordered them many years ago and although I made it to exactly match the CAD file (as far as a remember) it still did not line up correctly.

It just takes and extra amount of twisting while pressing in. Easiest to insert the din before mounting then the pins conform to the needed shape and are easier to reinsert.

 

4 hours ago, leonk said:

CSync from Potato should work as CVideo pin for the cables.

I have had mixed data on that point. Without owning one I cannot confirm. I don't want to advertise "may possibly work with the HDR". The other board (Orange Peel) works for sure.  

 

[emerson]

Looks like some significant progress has been made on the rgb front. Good work!

 

It's been quite a while since I've experimented with any Intellivision hardware mods but here's the forum post with my most recent audio circuit if anyone is interested. It could likely use a re-design as this was mostly plug n play with parts from the bin, and my transistor theory is very poor.

 

https://atariage.com/forums/topic/287021-intellivision-stereo-mod/?tab=comments#comment-4202119

[leonk]

On 1/21/2022 at 1:49 AM, the_crayon_king said:

Orange Peel V1.1 - RGB/Composite/S-Video, works with Genesis cables (by using the bypass pads [RB, GB, BB]), works with HD Retrovision cables (since it has composite). 30$ plus shipping 

I don't see Orange Peel on your eBay store. Is that something that you're waiting for parts? are there any boards ready for sale?

[the_crayon_king]

@leonk Still waiting for parts  

Should be here in a few days. 

I went ahead and relisted the listing in advance:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/284566484576

[the_crayon_king]

@emerson I must have missed your post earlier. From looking at the schematic I dunno why you have a dual pot and then a 5.6k resistor. Wouldn't you just want one or the other ?

 

To everyone else, the parts I needed are in. 

 

Also, Below would be a RF replacement. 

The RF mod is the same on both the model 1 and model 2.

I made a 9 pin and 8 pin board with 4 points of contact and an alternate that is smaller and has only 3 points of contact. 

 

The idea here would be:

add the din connector

cover/trim the bottom of the din connector

solder 3 or 4 pieces of metal to the RF holes

add a spacer below the PCB (size TBD),

thread the metal through the holes on the breakout

solder the thing in place 

 

This is just a proof of concept; I still have very small measurements/adjustments to make. Thoughts ? 

 

[+-^CrossBow^-]

It is a good idea, but I've only had 1 client want their RF modulator removed on their model 1. Although on the model 2 units, I've been removing them completely anyway. And I think only the smaller one is needed. As for the space required, my mount boards are currently 2.4mm thick as that was the thickest allowed from PCBWay. Idealling it needs to be close to 3mm to be more centered to where the RF out was. Also, while this design would work well in keeping the mini din right side up on the model 2, it would result in the mini din being upside down on the model 1. So either way... depending on the model you have to deal with one of them being right side up, and the other being upside down do to how the mainboards themselves are installed.

 

[the_crayon_king]

@-^CrossBow^- I don't think there is anyway around the model 1 being upside down unless you use the existing 8 pin din connector and drill a hole or solder the md-80/90SM directly to the ground plane. 

The size of the PCB should perfectly match the current RF mod's holes (or that is the goal anyway). I just made smaller ones because it may have some benefit.

I think primarily this would be for people who rather not cut a hole; and I think many people would come around to the idea if it were easier to do.

 

I took many measurements with a caliper but I could use some other data points. If anyone has an astec RF modulator datasheet that gives the distance center to center of the pins that would be a great help. 

This is what I have so far:

I will have to tweak the PCB and print out the design (on paper) and maybe error check the design that way. 

 

 

 

Edited January 30, 2022 by the_crayon_king

[+-^CrossBow^-]

I understand that and I'm not against the mini din being upside down. But if you mount is upside down on the model 1 as I've been doing (Which is pretty easy and made a little easier with my mount PCBs), then the mini din on the model 1 actually ends up being right side up when everything is installed back into the case shell. It is only on the model 2 that is still ends up being upside down, and your PCB would allow it to still stay right side up. I prefer removing the RF so that the extra hole doesn't need to be drilled. But as most of my clients want both composite and the RGB and now the s-video since you have that also, holes are going to happen regardless since they are still needed for composite and s-video.

 

I have one of the RF modulators and can get these measures, but you are better off just measuring from the holes on the mainboards since that is more likely to remain consistent. Again again, you only need the smaller board for both models as the holes you have in the boards will line up the same on both.

 

BTW what fab house have you found that will make castinated vias on the sides that large? PCBway wasn't willing to go more than 1mm and it was the same with JLCPCB when I submitted my gerbers to them as well. In fact, I had to reduce my castinated via diameters because at 2mm originally, they were too large and 1mm was the limit.

 

[emerson]

The 5k6 resistors prevent pins 4 and 38 from shorting directly to the transistors when the pot is adjusted for full mono.

 

If a pot is not desired then the 5k6 resistors should be replaced with higher values to allow for decent channel separation. 12k to 22k rings a bell, but this greatly depends on how the user is listening (tv, surround sound, headphones, etc).

[leonk]

I'm always skeptical of any stereo mod done to a mono console.  It was popular mod a few years ago on the NES, but people quickly realized that it didn't sound natural (as it wasn't true stereo, but rather forcibly sending some audio to one side and other type of audio to the other; sometimes mixing the 2 channels in the process).  No amount of mixing made it feel right across all the games.

 

Even Nintendo, in their Famicom AV (their first 8 bit console that included a stereo capable port) simply tied the L and R channels together effectively making a dual mono console.  

 

I haven't had a chance to play around with Intellivision audio, but given its age relative to NES, I suspect the results will be pretty similar.  

 

Just my $0.02 on the subject. 

[the_crayon_king]

5 hours ago, emerson said:

The 5k6 resistors prevent pins 4 and 38 from shorting directly to the transistors when the pot is adjusted for full mono.

 

If a pot is not desired then the 5k6 resistors should be replaced with higher values to allow for decent channel separation. 12k to 22k rings a bell, but this greatly depends on how the user is listening (tv, surround sound, headphones, etc).

I haven't confirmed it but I would think there is internal resistors on the audio pins (inside the audio IC).

Which would be why the audio lowers when adding a termination to the three mixed audio lines. 

Other than that IDK anything about audio.

 

---------------------------------------------

I have attached several different RF replacement board gerber files.

I found the dimensions in the astec modulator datasheet (I was off 0.3mm and 0.25mm) from my measurements. 

Sometime in the future I will print these (as a PCB) to confirm they work. From printing on paper it seems to fit.

I assume the pinouts and everything are correct. These can work with any kit and any model Intellivision (AFAIK). 

Has S-Video, 9 pin, 8 pin, and RCA replacements. If it has "ALT" in the name that means it has 3 points of connection but is smaller. The default has four and is larger.

These will make the connectors 'upside down' on the model 1. 

 

The only thing I am missing is the spacing of the spacer (that would sit below this PCB) and the metal pins that would be soldered to mount this.

You could make do with random things you have laying around but I will try to find something more specific. 

 

If anyone has ideas for spacers/header pins that will work here let me know. The holes should be 4.5X1.5mm so the header pins would have to be smaller than that. 

RF REPLACEMENT.zip

Edited January 31, 2022 by the_crayon_king

[leonk]

I installed orange peel into an Intellivision 1 that was previously modded with composite video (hence why I went with this solution) and once again, I’m very impressed with the video quality. 
 

RGB is breathtaking. Composite looks very clean. 
 

I was just surprised by a few things:

 

1) why is orange peel cheaper than baked potato?

 

2) orange peel is noticeably bigger than baked potato. Unless I need composite or Svideo, I’ll be sticking to the rgb only solution (for size alone)

 

3) we need a better solution for audio. The audio output from this Intellivision has a horrible buzz at high volume. I tried to put a 220uF cap inline to reduce the buzz (with +ve lead towards the kit) but unlike on Famicom, it had no impact. 
 

congrats on this wonderful kit!!!

[leonk]

Almost forgot. What would happen if someone tries to run RGB and another video port (like composite) on orange peel? (Eg stream + local display) is the amp capable of supporting this use case or is it only 1 display type at a time?

[the_crayon_king]

1 hour ago, leonk said:

Almost forgot. What would happen if someone tries to run RGB and another video port (like composite) on orange peel? (Eg stream + local display) is the amp capable of supporting this use case or is it only 1 display type at a time?

It depends on what you are using for sync. If you are using Y (from S-Video) or Composite for sync then if you send that to a TV as well that is going to cut your video P-P in half.

There are enough options for sync that you should be able to configure about anything to meet your needs (in regards to Orange Peel that is).

 

 

1. Orange Peel is cheaper for no other reason than it is easier for me to make (by a lot). It actually costs a little bit more to make Orange Peel over Baked Potato. Hand soldering LQFP is no joke. 

2. The size was one of a few trade offs from one to the other. 

3. I am not really sure why you would be having audio issues on the model 1. The bypass solution I made for the model 2 might work for you.

I haven't implemented any sort of audio circuitry in the RGB boards because it is better to keep that noise separate. 

 

 

Anyway, I'm glad you like the board

--------------------------------------------------------

I added a 2.54mm header version of that breakout posted before. More practical. 

RF REPLACE 2.54MM HEADER.zip

Edited February 9, 2022 by the_crayon_king

[the_crayon_king]

So minor update, I have the model 2, 8 pin / 9 pin breakouts.

I don't know if this is the one I shared here, so I uploaded yet another one.

This one is reversible, so one side is 8 pin mini din, and the other is 9 pin mini din. 

 

 

Pictures:

 

Notice that the baked potato board sits on top of this.

So this both gives you a place to mount a RGB output and the kit itself. 

 

Steps: 

Solder the connector you plan to use (make sure correct side). 

Solder the header pins for the board (if you plan to mount it here) to the RF replacement board (do not solder the kit down yet that is last).

Now add the header pins in-between the motherboard and the RF replacement (stick the long side out the bottom of the MB). 

Add solder to the top side of the header pins (the RF replacement side).

Bend the header pins on the bottom side (the bottom of the mother board) toward a ground plane. 

Adjust the centering so that the din connector is centered (I didnt do this step). 

Solder the pins down.

Now add the kit to the top most header pins and solder it down., (take note of the 2 ground pads being used for additional support). 

 

The rest of the connections are like normal. 

I cannot tell if the din connector being slightly to the right is an error in PCB design or something else. but manually tweaking it when putting this together will fix it. Just make sure the bottom of the din connector isn't shorting to the ground plane (this shouldn't happen with normal sized 2.54mm header pins).

You may have to shave the hole to fit your cable. I didn't have any issues even with the slightly off-center placement. 

 

I have the bare PCB I can add into orders going forward. On request. You would just have to find either the MD-80SM, or MD-90SM and the header pins (basic 2.54mm header pins). I could sell the whole thing as a kit but IDK how popular that would be. 

 

Gerber_PCB_RF replacement 8 PIN.zip

Edited April 23, 2022 by the_crayon_king

[teknohed]

just wanted to jump in here and say that the mod you helped me with for my intellivision is still working like a champ a year later.  thanks for sharing your knowledge with us luddites.

[EdgeFaction]

@the_crayon_king and others - what cable do you personally use or recommend that has an 8-pin mini-din and 5 RCAs (for Component specifically but RGB is fine too) for use with Baked Potato.

[the_crayon_king]

2 hours ago, EdgeFaction said:

@the_crayon_king and others - what cable do you personally use or recommend that has an 8-pin mini-din and 5 RCAs (for Component specifically but RGB is fine too) for use with Baked Potato.

You can use both the 8 pin mini din and 5 RCAs you just daisy chain them together,. 

When the YPbPr jumper is toggled then you would be sending YPbPr to both the 8 pin and the RCAs. 

Vice versa when you have the toggle not jumpered. 

 

Just don't have both hooked up to a destination at the same time (this will cut the output voltage in half).

I have component RCAs if you request them on checkout I will send them instead of (or in addition to the 8 pin din.) 

Although my RCAs are cheap so source others if you want better quality,.