Reasons to (or not to) get a PET

[bluejay]

Lately I've fallen in love with the Commodore PET. I know it's an utterly useless computer, but I still want one more than I want my next breath.

Not that I can afford one yet, though. I only have $200 or so to spend right now.

 

Drawbacks of the PET that I am currently aware of:

Expensive as hell.

Unreliable keyboard(I'm willing to fix some stuff as long as it's not super duper complicated or annoying)

IEEE488; no cheap way to load programs into it without using tape or via serial transfer

No graphics(so no very exciting games)

Huge and heavy.

Rare and expensive peripherals

 

The pros:

Astonishingly good looking.

Fast disk access if I were to get an actual IEEE488 drive. (not that I would ever buy one though)

Attack of the PETSCII Robots. I have a VIC20 and a 128 but it would be interesting to play on a real PET.

Simple and straight forward in just about every way imaginable

The fact that it's the first home computer made by Commodore.

 

Any PET users here to point out some specific reason to or not to get a PET?

[youxia]

I nearly bought one some months ago. There was a guy selling a demonstrably working one for ~500USD. A lot, but of course these things do not go down in price so it's a sort of investment.

 

You've already mentioned one of the main reasons I wanted it: it's probably the most "retro" looking micro out there. A real icon. Aside from that, I wanted to take photos of its working monitor for a project of mine, and also I don't have any machine from the Seventies - one of the 1977 Trinity would be a major coup (I've always wanted a TRS-80 but these don't really exist in my area).

Another pro reason is that there actually exists a flash solution (not cheap thou, ~100USD) so you can actually load software easily.

 

I finally gave up on the idea because of the fact that I'm incapable of fixing electronics, so even a slightest fault would render it into a very expensive pile of old junk. And it was not popular in my area, (plus it's so big) so I wouldn't be able send it off for repairs to my local experts.

 

[carlsson]

From my own perspective: I've been a Commodore user since 1984-85. Back then the back side of the sales brochures for the VIC-20 and C64 had small boxes with PET and CBM-II systems. I never considered those to be relevant to me, just another strange computer. As the years passed by, I more or less forgot that the PET series even existed. It was C64 and later Amiga for me.

 

Fast forward to the fall of 2005 when I got in touch with a former Commodore reseller in hope he would have piles of NIB VIC-20 cartridges to sell cheap. I had been in touch with him already in the mid 90's to get a spare RF modulator for the VIC-20, when he still had a store/office. I was welcome to visit his home where he now kept all his old inventory. Sorry to say I didn't find much more than a few loose, homemade VIC cartridges. What I did find though was a basement and attached garage to the brim full with various PET and CBM-II systems, IEEE floppy drives, printers and more.

 

It allowed me, 20 years later to reacquaint myself with these systems and learn the differences from the VIC and C64 that I already knew. I took a quick inventory, went to the cbm-hackers list and offered to sell systems cheap. The majority of requests though were for super rare things like the 8" drives 8280, Commodore 65 (yeah, right), the 9060/9090 hard drives. Even in the community of Commodore users, regular PET and CBM-II systems back then were not really worth the shipping costs, or that everyone already got what they needed.

 

I cherry picked items for a couple years, sold and split the profits with the reseller. He was happy as it had been sitting in his basement for 10+ years, only taking up space. Eventually he told me I was welcome to pick up everything that was left for free. I didn't have the room so a few friends from the Netherlands and Poland came here with a van and almost fell backwards at the sight of items to pick up. They grabbed what they could and two weeks later my friend from Poland returned with an even bigger van to grab the rest.

 

Sure, nowadays these systems are considered collectable and have easily increased in price by some 300-500% compared to 15 years ago which makes it questionable if that is where your pocket money should go if you're not entirely convinced you want to break the bank for a PET. Sometimes you can still get a good deal, but given these are heavy beasts (15 kg and upwards), they're also very fragile and difficult to ship. More than one of the systems I shipped arrived more or less broken, despite ... adequate ... packing skills. I learned soon that adequate isn't enough, you need top notch packing, preferably double boxing with lots of padding.

 

I don't know if the keyboards are any less reliable than others, at least if you're looking at the full travel models (2001N, 3000, 4000, 8000 series). When it comes to storage solutions, there are a few SD based ones though usually those go out of stock. I think more designs are being made so there would be a supply. Jim Brain is also working on a kit to convert a 1541 into a 2031 if you insist on using an IEEE drive. Note though that the 2040/3040/4040/2031 series are double density, read compatible with a 1541 (slight differences in sync marks) while the 8050/8250/SFD-1001 are quad density 77 tracks, 100 tpi which are totally incompatible with anything outside of it. The latter drives can't even read the DD floppy disks from the former series.

 

Aesthetically yes, many people find those computers to be iconic so you might get one for the looks even if the hardware inside seems outdated.

[English Invader]

You might be better off with one of these:

https://www.thefuturewas8bit.com/shop/tynemouth-products/built-kits/bk-mpa-deluxe.html

 

He sells them as either DIY kits or ready-built systems.  There is also an SD2PET device you can add for software.

 

[bluejay]

Definitely not getting that. It's too expensive for what it is. Besides the biggest reason I want a PET is because how handsome the case looks. The MiniPET takes away most of the appeals of the PET.

[bluejay]

There are a few examples on ebay for around $600. One's a 32k 2001N. It's one of the cheapest and accepts offers, but the 2001N's porportions look kind of odd to me, compared to the later models. One's a 4032. It's nice but $699. The rest is too expensive.

I hope I'll be able to find a cheap example at some point and I'm more than willing to save up around $600 for a PET if those are the only downsides to the PET. I mean, it's a really nice computer to have, isn't it? Kinda like the original Fat Macs.

SD2PET is interesting but expensive. I wish there was an open source thing you could build so I could design my own board and sell remainders for cheap. But then again most people who can afford a PET wouldn't mind spending an extra $100 for an SD2PET. Maybe price will lower as time goes on.

[carlsson]

I believe if you join some user group, dedicated forums, mailing lists and managed to convince that you're serious about your thing, you could find a PET for half those amounts, perhaps even lower. But it would require you to come through as honestly interested, not your latest fling and you're trying to make a deal outside of the commercial channels.

 

Besides I'm not sure those $600+ machines really are selling any fast. If they accept offers you might try to offer $300 and see if the seller eventually accepts. Still that is a lot of money for something you mainly want for is aesthetics.

[bluejay]

If you say so, I'm giving it a shot. A quick google search yielded me only some dead forums that haven't been active in more than a year. Maybe Vcfed might work, or here too for that matter. And although aesthetics is a big appeal of the PET, if you think I'm going to be using it as an ornament you'd be completely wrong. I intend to try a few games on it along with some BASIC programming, and maybe I'll try some machine language if I can find a nice assembler. I'll maybe send eBay sellers some offers. What do I need to do to prove to the PET gurus that I am worthy of a PET?

[carlsson]

Not sure, but perhaps mentioning that you've been playing with one through emulation for a while and got seriously intrigued with owning one would be a good start. There are a few active Facebook groups too, though people over there tend to know what the going rates are like.

 

But as mentioned, these are difficult to ship. It means either you find a highly qualifier reseller who knows how to pack things, and expect to pay $500+ for the computer plus shipping expenses, or you find someone who doesn't care and you risk getting a computer smashed into pieces. Or you find a seller that is fairly local to you so you can pick it up in person.

Edited November 6, 2020 by carlsson

[youxia]

27 minutes ago, carlsson said:

Or you find a seller that is fairly local to you so you can pick it up in person.

I wouldn't bother otherwise. There's just too much risk involved with shipping CRTs, even if somebody packs it with real care.

 

When I was negotiating with my seller he offered to drive 500km to deliver it. There is quite a lot of money involved after all.

 

EDIT: just saw the price of that clone board. My jaw has literally dropped. Preposterous 

Edited November 6, 2020 by youxia

[carlsson]

Since Bluejay in status updates mentioned arcade games, another DIY solution could be to build your own PET. Not from TFW8B's expensive replica board but from a worn C64 keyboard, a Keyrah interface, a Raspberry Pi and a monitor installed in a chassis. As a bonus, you get your all-in-one C64, VIC-20, Plus/4 etc combined with your all-in-one PET. Sure it would not be the same as the real thing but I imagine a lot less expensive, in particular if you can source a spare C64 keyboard cheap and only need to invest in the Keyrah and Pi.

[bluejay]

1 hour ago, carlsson said:

Not sure, but perhaps mentioning that you've been playing with one through emulation for a while and got seriously intrigued with owning one would be a good start. There are a few active Facebook groups too, though people over there tend to know what the going rates are like.

 

But as mentioned, these are difficult to ship. It means either you find a highly qualifier reseller who knows how to pack things, and expect to pay $500+ for the computer plus shipping expenses, or you find someone who doesn't care and you risk getting a computer smashed into pieces. Or you find a seller that is fairly local to you so you can pick it up in person.

I guess it's time to load up xpet.exe.

It would be great if the seller was willing to drive the machine to me but I mean, I can't just expect the seller to do so. Maybe I'll be able to convince my parents a 40 year old computer is worth driving a 100 or so miles for. Maybe I'll try the commodore.ca. It seems to be the most active Commodore focused forum. But I do wish I could find someone here on AA although it's unlikely. I'd be more willing to trust someone here than on another forum as this forum is the one I know best. But again, it can't all be the way I want it.

I'll try there first and if it doesn't really work I'll ask here as well and then vcfed. If you find me there don't tell anyone what I'm up to ?

Edited November 6, 2020 by bluejay

[carlsson]

Testing out through emulation also lets you know more what you're looking for. It should be understood that PET/CBM is an entire series of machines, partly compatible with eachother. A quick breakdown:

 

PET 2001: The original model with built-in tape recorder and the small keyboard. Came with 4K or 8K IIRC, BASIC 1.0 (tape only) but possible to upgrade. Has a few motherboard revisions. The original ones had 6540 ROMs and 6550 RAMs, the later ones had 2316/2332 ROMs and 2114 RAMs. Combinations of both exist. This is the model that TFW8B tries to mimic. Generates video with discrete electronics, 9" display and 40 columns.

 

PET 3000 series: Upgraded model with full keyboard, no built-in peripherals. Came with 8-32K RAM, BASIC 2.0, the more common ROM and RAM chips. Generally a good base model which most of the games and other programs work on. Still video with discrete electronics, 9" display. The keyboard is the "graphics/normal" one, meaning you only have numbers on the numeric keyboard, not top row.

 

CBM/PET 4000 series: This one can either be a 3000 upgraded with BASIC 4.0, or the newer universal board with a CRTC chip, so basically two different computers with the same model names. I think this came both with 9" and 12" screens, 40 columns. I think this came with either the "graphics" keyboard or the "business" keyboard which has numbers on the upper row.

 

CBM/PET 8000 series: Universal or dedicated board with up to 32K RAM, CRTC chip, 80 columns, 12" screen? Probably most common with business keyboard though the other might exist too. Note that software for 40 columns only occasionally work on 80 columns, and that unless heavily modified it isn't possible to switch between the two graphics modes. There are programs to limit the screen to 40 narrow columns but depending on how programs are written, it may or may not work.

 

8032-SK: Same as 8032 (same motherboard) but with a lot of internal connectors to reroute ports plus that the keyboard is detachable.

 

8096-SK: I think this is an upgraded 8032 with 64K extra that may be accessed through bank switching mechanisms.

 

8296: Late model, reworked motherboard that has PLA chips like the C64 and that breaks just as often. Software wise about the same as 8032 I believe, except for the optionally bank switched memory.

 

I'm not getting into the CBM-II series because those are completely different beasts, even less common to find and possibly even more expensive if you find one... but at a rate of $600+ perhaps there is no price difference any longer.

[bluejay]

I'm not interested in PETs that have model numbers greater than 8000. I'd like a 40 column PET, since they seem to have better software support and are cheaper. The Porsche PETs are interesting but they're also too expensive. If I got to choose I'd pick a nice later model 4032, since I think they look and function the best. But I can live with a 2001N or a 3000 series model. Preferably I'd like BASIC 4.0 but older versions would be interesting to mess about with as well. I plan on buying an EPROM programmer to program a SD2IEC, so if I were to upgrade/downgrade the BASIC I should be able to burn the ROM onto an EPROM and shove it into the PET and expect it to work, right?

The 2001's keyboard is interesting. I'd like to try it but I definitely can't afford a 2001, and I wouldn't buy one if I did.

Did all PETs other than the cash register 2001 and the later beige ones have the same keyboards?

Edit: commodore.ca's register system seems to be slightly broken. I tried two different emails and waited an hour for each account but got no verification email. I'm off to vcfed, then.

Edited November 6, 2020 by bluejay

[carlsson]

The 2000/3000/4000/8000 boards tend to take 2332 ROM = 2532 EPROM. Those have a different pinout than 2732 EPROM, though you can manufacture adapters. Jim Brain also sells some modern adapter solutions. The fact that the OS takes 4-5 ROM chips a 4K each is a bit of a problem. You could also consider the generic 6502 RAM/ROM expansion that substitutes all ROM chips with one.

 

As for keyboards, I believe they all have the same mechanism type though there are a few variants. Sometimes the differences are so small that you need a detective's eye to spot them.

[bluejay]

4 minutes ago, carlsson said:

The 2000/3000/4000/8000 boards tend to take 2332 ROM = 2532 EPROM. Those have a different pinout than 2732 EPROM, though you can manufacture adapters. Jim Brain also sells some modern adapter solutions. The fact that the OS takes 4-5 ROM chips a 4K each is a bit of a problem. You could also consider the generic 6502 RAM/ROM expansion that substitutes all ROM chips with one.

 

As for keyboards, I believe they all have the same mechanism type though there are a few variants. Sometimes the differences are so small that you need a detective's eye to spot them.

Well if that's the case I guess I'll be keeping whatever BASIC the machine comes with. The keyboard isn't too bad to type on for long periods of time, is it? Is it worse compared to Apple ones of the era?

[Omega-TI]

If you must have one, I'd say save up for a while... and avoid the "Cash Register" looking model with the funky keyboard and the built in cassette player that will eventually go bad.

 

  Look ma, a cash register keyboard!

 

 

 More to go wrong, cramped keyboard.

 

 

  Looks better and has does not have a cramped el-cheapo looking keyboard.

 

 

[carlsson]

24 minutes ago, bluejay said:

The keyboard isn't too bad to type on for long periods of time, is it? Is it worse compared to Apple ones of the era?

Hard to tell. I've briefly used an original Apple II and a lot depends on how worn it is. The Mitsumi keyboards used by Commodore often can be refurbished by cleaning and recoating with carbon, not sure how the Apple ones are designed. Generally I like to do development and other grunt work on the PC, and in the end transfer the results to the target computer, let it be a PET, a C64 or anything else. Many people find charm in working natively on the old computers, but I like to save them as much as possible, plus that cross development has so many benefits anyway and that I know if I worked natively I wouldn't get half as much done.

[ventrra]

8 hours ago, Omega-TI said:

If you must have one, I'd say save up for a while... and avoid the "Cash Register" looking model with the funky keyboard and the built in cassette player that will eventually go bad.

 

  Look ma, a cash register keyboard!

 

 

 More to go wrong, cramped keyboard.

 

 

  Looks better and has does not have a cramped el-cheapo looking keyboard.

 

 

Oh, I don't know about that. I think the "cash register" one has a kind of interesting retro-futuristic look to it. I've certainly seen and used worse keyboards in my time.

[bluejay]

I discovered a type of keyboard with the numbers on the top row, the cursor keys in the weirdest places I have ever seen, and a repeat key. Looks like it would be a nightmare to use.

 

[carlsson]

That would be the "business" type keyboard. As for cursor keys, I'm not sure they're located differently but yes some keys are added/removed compared to the graphics keyboard.

[RobertB]

On 11/6/2020 at 8:46 AM, carlsson said:

8296: Late model, reworked motherboard that has PLA chips like the C64 and that breaks just as often. Software wise about the same as 8032 I believe, except for the optionally bank switched memory.

There is also the 8296-D with its built-in, dual disk drives.

 

Truly,

Robert Bernardo

Fresno Commodore User Group - http://www.dickestel.com/fcug.htm

Southern California Commodore & Amiga Network - http://www.portcommodore.com/sccan

[Papalapa]

Actually storage problem is solved by using this gadget (from the same guy sells the MiniPET):

 

https://www.thefuturewas8bit.com/sd2pet.html

 

CBM-8032 was the first computer I used at the school when I was young and I still hope to get one one day. The double disk drive was really monstrous, it was almost the size of the CPU...

 

[bluejay]

@Papalapa But it's expensive. No way in hell I'm paying that much for a flash storage gadget. Might as well make one myself, really.

[carlsson]

There were a few cheaper, more basic solutions before but those went out of production as well. I think there are yet a few under development. Much depends on which functionality and compatibility you want. Some only want a device to get individual files from. Others want a device that handles disk images, relative files, even more complex file systems and emulation of hard drives. Some want something that works on their machine, regardless if it would work on another model. Some want a device that has been tested to be known working on anything with the Commodore version of the IEEE-488 bus.