Popeye 7800

[+darryl1970]

44 minutes ago, sramirez2008 said:

Beta 2.5a test results:

- Confirmed. Bottom line text on Intro and Credits screen look good. Maybe could center the bottom line text a bit more on the Intro screen.

 

Confirmed via SaveKey. Also confirmed that the scores are retained (between shut downs/start-ups)

 

Just want to confirm that "Arcade" mode is the only one currently available, correct? 

I am able to select 1 or 2 players. 

*Tested with SEGA Genesis 3 button via Edladdin Seagull 78 controller adapter*

 

This game really is stunning to look at.

Thank you! I really appreciate the TV shots. I adjusted the text in my current WIP!

 

3 minutes ago, RevEng said:

This game would be an impressive feat for a 7800 veteran to pull off. Consider now that Darryl started his little Popeye demo in August as an exercise to learn 7800 coding, and now three months he has the game looking and playing like a dream...

 

LOL!! Thank you! I couldn't have done it without your creation!

[+sramirez2008]

39 minutes ago, RevEng said:

This game would be an impressive feat for a 7800 veteran to pull off. Consider now that Darryl started his little Popeye demo in August as an exercise to learn 7800 coding, and now three months he has the game looking and playing like a dream...

Hear, hear!

[Trebor]

It is indeed a playing like a dream...a dream come true. 

 

What Darryl has pulled off is indeed an impressive feat.  My mind continues to remain blown and having the privilege of being a part of all the behind the scenes development has been quite exciting.  The support too by the community is wonderful.  

 

Speaking of which...now this...

1 hour ago, darryl1970 said:

LOL!! Thank you! I couldn't have done it without your creation!

...can't thank RevEng enough.  No 7800basic, this and a slew of other project most likely, if not definitely, would have never been developed or be in development right now.  Atari Dev Studio, courtesy of mksmith, throws the icing on that cake.  And whether a bear, a sailor, or what have you, Synthpopalooza just makes that POKEY sing.

[+darryl1970]

Al gave me permission to edit the first thread, so I am going to update that with the latest.

 

I made a few tweaks. I fixed some collision at the edge of the screen. It broke when I tried to tackle some slowdown. I also really mucked with Popeye's fall.

I realized that Popeye falls too fast, compared to the arcade; but it was just going to be too much to tweak.

 

Then I played the mini-game last night. He fell more like the arcade. I figured I did it once, I could do it again. I hope this feels right!

 

--Darryl

[TrekMD]

This game is truly fantastic!  So well done and very faithful to the arcade original!

[7800Knight]

Seriously, this looks outstanding!

 

I eagerly wait for the day the cartridge goes on sale in the Atariage store!

[desiv]

Looks great with my CC2.

I only played one quick (very.. man am I rusty... and on break) game, but it played and looks and sounds incredible!

 

Here is what I have for my CC2 config:

7800: Popeye                    Popeye78    144RPK        78BIOS

 

[+darryl1970]

Updated version to 2.6 -- first post.

[ZylonBane]

Great work, but something I'm finding really disturbing is Bluto's face. He looks like some kind of compound-eye Brundlebluto nightmare. I think by simplifying the detail a bit it would be possible to get something that reads much more as a human face while still resembling the arcade graphics.

 

Edited November 25, 2020 by ZylonBane

[+darryl1970]

13 hours ago, ZylonBane said:

Great work, but something I'm finding really disturbing is Bluto's face. He looks like some kind of compound-eye Brundlebluto nightmare. I think by simplifying the detail a bit it would be possible to get something that reads much more as a human face while still resembling the arcade graphics.

 

 

[ZylonBane]

Nice! I wouldn't try to directly convert his angry grimace at this resolution though. There are so few pixels, it ends up looking like buck teeth, IMHO.

[+Defender_2600]

Hey Darryl, I was wondering if you'd be interested in releasing two graphical versions of the game, the current one and an alternative version (like you did with your DKJr hack for 5200). In case you like the idea, I'd like to draw a new complete set of sprites for the alternative version, I'm thinking of a more minimal and clean style and in part I'm inspired by the classic version for NES but with obviously larger sprites and some arcade details that I'm customizing. In the image below I show you an example of what I started doing.

 

In case, however, I'll have to ask you for a little patience because I'm slow and fussy with graphics, in addition to being already busy with other 7800 projects and therefore I have limited free time. Thanks again for your attention.

 

 

 

 

[Trebor]

I think the 'cleaner' look works really well, here.  At a resolution of 512x448, it is a beast regarding video resolution and respective details, outdoing many arcade games during its time and even years later.  Scaling that down to 160x224/240, a compromise between the Arcade details, but larger than the NES small sprites, may work best. 

 

It's your baby though, Darryl; you need to be happy with the final results.

[+darryl1970]

7 hours ago, Defender_2600 said:

Hey Darryl, I was wondering if you'd be interested in releasing two graphical versions of the game, the current one and an alternative version (like you did with your DKJr hack for 5200). In case you like the idea, I'd like to draw a new complete set of sprites for the alternative version, I'm thinking of a more minimal and clean style and in part I'm inspired by the classic version for NES but with obviously larger sprites and some arcade details that I'm customizing. In the image below I show you an example of what I started doing.

 

In case, however, I'll have to ask you for a little patience because I'm slow and fussy with graphics, in addition to being already busy with other 7800 projects and therefore I have limited free time. Thanks again for your attention.

 

 

 

 

I'd be more excited about 320 mode than a downgrade to the NES version. Wouldn't that be more worth the effort?  I was a big fan of the NES Brutus sprite back in the day, having grown up with the 5200/A8, but I hated the Popeye sprite on the NES.

 

Can there be a mix of 160A tiles and 320 sprites? If you think about it, it would be true to the arcade, since the tiles were about half the sprite resolution. I think the color palettes would be a hassle, but you are more familiar with working around those limitations; I figure you can "see" what the limitations are, where I'd have to figure that out. I think it would be a beast to redraw all of the tiles if that was required for 320. My graphic banks are full, so I wouldn't be able to add to them if that was necessary.

 

320 really makes everything feel bigger, like the arcade. I do not know how to edit a 320 sprite, so a lot of detail is lost here. When I only had a couple palettes defined, it almost looked like the arcade. That was back in the beginning when I was playing with just two on-screen sprites. Popeye's head was WAY too big for 160A, but it looked great in 320 mode.

 

The below demo is pretty sloppy, because it's displaying 160 tiles in 320 mode (\I had to, else the level graphics are only half the screen width). The game itself actually plays the same speed, and it feels more open. This would be a huge undertaking, to align everything back up. I am not sure if the palettes would play nicely. That would be something I'd be excited about!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 Popeye320(Beta2.6_Demo).a78   Popeye320(Beta2.6_Demo).bin

 

 

 

[Jinroh]

To be honest I am not sure why anyone would think this would require a redo of the Sprites.

 

This is far and away the best home version of the game, and you can tell Darryl has gone to great lengths to translate over the arcade graphics to the humble 7800, which has risen the game to a level we are all astonished to see it run.

[7800Knight]

As long as the sprites aren't tiny like the NES port or just plain abstract like that port for the Odyssey 2, I'll be satisfied.

 

@darryl1970 The game is yours so the ball's in your court.  You'll have to decide what works best.

[+Defender_2600]

8 hours ago, darryl1970 said:

I'd be more excited about 320 mode than a downgrade to the NES version. Wouldn't that be more worth the effort?  I was a big fan of the NES Brutus sprite back in the day, having grown up with the 5200/A8, but I hated the Popeye sprite on the NES.

 

Can there be a mix of 160A tiles and 320 sprites? If you think about it, it would be true to the arcade, since the tiles were about half the sprite resolution. I think the color palettes would be a hassle, but you are more familiar with working around those limitations; I figure you can "see" what the limitations are, where I'd have to figure that out. I think it would be a beast to redraw all of the tiles if that was required for 320. My graphic banks are full, so I wouldn't be able to add to them if that was necessary.

 

320 really makes everything feel bigger, like the arcade. I do not know how to edit a 320 sprite, so a lot of detail is lost here. When I only had a couple palettes defined, it almost looked like the arcade. That was back in the beginning when I was playing with just two on-screen sprites. Popeye's head was WAY too big for 160A, but it looked great in 320 mode.

 

The below demo is pretty sloppy, because it's displaying 160 tiles in 320 mode (\I had to, else the level graphics are only half the screen width). The game itself actually plays the same speed, and it feels more open. This would be a huge undertaking, to align everything back up. I am not sure if the palettes would play nicely. That would be something I'd be excited about!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'm a little sorry you're not interested but no worries, as mentioned, it's your baby. On the other hand, as you said, my sprites look like a downgrade to you (wow). Just a matter of taste. About your 320 mode version, I don't know how to help you, I know very well how to design graphics in 320 modes but still haven't found the time to deepen my knowledge of the excellent 7800basic.

 

Of course, if your goal is to make Popeye in 320 mode in the best possible way, I agree with you that this would be a huge undertaking. As you know, your current Level Layout, designed for 160 mode, does not have the aspect ratio of the arcade version, it is too wide. Also, in the first level, the distance between the four lower scales is really too short affecting the gameplay (if you are interested I could come back to this point later).

 

With the 320 mode it is finally possible to design the Level Layout that has the same aspect ratio of the arcade version, simply divide the resolution of the arcade version by two (therefore from 512 x 448 to 256 x 224) and you get the 7800 version almost indistinguishable from the arcade version. Instead the sprites need to be hand drawn by a pixel artist who knows how 320 modes work.

 

A few years ago, I made a mock up of Popeye in 320A mode with some sprites / tiles overlapped, 12 colors on screen (8 colors for scan line). Today, however, I have more experience, I would use 320C mode + 320A mode and the result would be even better. In the image below, you can see what I mean about the aspect ratio of the Level Layout and how the 7800 and arcade versions are almost indistinguishable, except for the resolution of the sprites and some colors (which I could however improve a little using the 320C mode ).

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 27, 2020 by Defender_2600

[Jinroh]

Interesting mockups and theories @Defender_2600.

 

I have the utmost confidence @darryl1970 could do a really great functional 320 mode version, with some of his amazing graphics.

 

Call me pragmatic, but if it were my project, I think 320 is diminishing returns. It is Darryl's call and he has an interest in it, but if it were me, it is nearly the point to cut it, ship it, and enjoy it.

 

Edited November 27, 2020 by Jinroh

[+darryl1970]

5 hours ago, Defender_2600 said:

I'm a little sorry you're not interested but no worries, as mentioned, it's your baby.

Thank you for understanding.

5 hours ago, Defender_2600 said:

On the other hand, as you said, my sprites look like a downgrade to you (wow).

I did not say that. You mentioned a version based off of the NES, which is a downgrade to the arcade by nature. I didn't imply that you do bad work. In fact, I thought my post was a compliment and encouragement to you and your past work in 320 mode.

 

With your time so packed, I figured moving closer to the arcade would be more satisfying than moving toward the NES. If I am reading it correctly, you proposed a parallel "NES Classic" version. If that's what you'd like to do down the line, I'd even help with any code that needs shifted around in the background to compensate for sprite positioning. With NES Classic, I could even alter some of the code to play more like the NES in certain areas if desired.

 

I would prefer to let the paint dry on this version first, but it sounds like that isn't an issue with your schedule. I'm not really into two alternate release versions.

[+darryl1970]

6 hours ago, Jinroh said:

I have the utmost confidence @darryl1970 could do a really great functional 320 mode version, with some of his amazing graphics.

Thanks @Jinroh. I appreciate the confidence. My biggest hurdle with 320 is that I do not have an editor that handles the even-odd pair color combinations for a good visual output. I also am not clear on the palette config at this time, but that is because it's a moot point without having the editor.

Quote

 

Call me pragmatic, but if it were my project, I think 320 is diminishing returns. It is Darryl's call and he has an interest in it, but if it were me, it is nearly the point to cut it, ship it, and enjoy it.

 

I have thought that too, but I've dreamed about the 320 on and off throughout. Maria is being pushed hard for 160A. I am told that I would have less bandwidth with 160B. I think sacrifices would need made for any 320 mode. I could possibly eliminated the bottle-throwing Sea Hag, like the NES version does. It is what it is. It wasn't intended to be a full game from the start. I didn't realize so many people disliked my graphics. Thanks also @Karl G and @Jinks for the positive support.

Edited November 27, 2020 by darryl1970

[Trebor]

36 minutes ago, darryl1970 said:

I didn't realize so many people disliked my graphics. Thanks @Karl G and @Jinks for the positive support.

Hey Darryl...Unsure why you believe so many people dislike your graphics.  I like your graphics. In fact, you've done a fantastic job with this Arcade port.  If everything was left 'as is' with version 2.6 as final, it is still the best port to date.

 

I also believe it's great that the graphical change ZylonBane suggested, did appeal to you and it was incorporated.  Granted, a much more drastic graphical change, from Defender_2600 was offered, and it did not appeal to you as well. And while Defender_2600's graphic offerings are liked, it doesn't mean your graphics are disliked.  Both can be liked at the same time. 

 

Again, marvelous job with this port.  You're at a point with your creation where if any minor kinks and bugs exist just need to be worked out and you're done, that's absolutely wonderful as well.

 

I think there is some misinterpretation of intent and thoughts in the last few posts.  Much has to do with how passionate people are about their hard work, the hard work of others, and certainly the excitement and enthusiasm towards developing on the 7800.  It's actually quite thrilling to see this kind of passion towards the platform.  Everyone's interest here with Darryl's amazing port is truly appreciated.

[+Karl G]

It's interesting to see what the 320 modes might look like, but I like the 160A version best with the big sprites and bright colors. It makes the port distinct and visually appealing. I got to play it on hardware for the first time and enjoyed it immensely.

[Trebor]

Indeed, the big sprites and bright colors really make this port stand head and shoulders above the other port offerings out there.  Darryl nailed all the gameplay so excellently, it makes the range of playability options from Novice thru Expert all the more sweeter, and makes this arguably the most playable and enjoyable of all the ports out there as well.

[+Muddyfunster]

28 minutes ago, Trebor said:

.Unsure why you believe so many people dislike your graphics.

I second that, I think the graphics in your game are fantastic. Palette choices are perfect and the proportions (something that can be difficult to blend just right on the 7800) are also spot on. 

 

Bloody good job old chap

 

[+Defender_2600]

8 hours ago, darryl1970 said:

Thank you for understanding.

I did not say that. You mentioned a version based off of the NES, which is a downgrade to the arcade by nature. I didn't imply that you do bad work. In fact, I thought my post was a compliment and encouragement to you and your past work in 320 mode.

 

With your time so packed, I figured moving closer to the arcade would be more satisfying than moving toward the NES. If I am reading it correctly, you proposed a parallel "NES Classic" version. If that's what you'd like to do down the line, I'd even help with any code that needs shifted around in the background to compensate for sprite positioning. With NES Classic, I could even alter some of the code to play more like the NES in certain areas if desired.

 

I would prefer to let the paint dry on this version first, but it sounds like that isn't an issue with your schedule. I'm not really into two alternate release versions.

 

Thanks for your kind offer, Darryl; I appreciate you leaving a door open for me for the future.

 

In truth I really don't care about the gameplay of the NES version and I agree that, from this point of view, it would be downgraded. I am referring exclusively to the alternative graphics of the sprites "partially" inspired by the NES version but with larger dimensions and with the inclusion of some arcade details.

 

As already mentioned, this really does not mean that I do not appreciate your work, on the contrary I assure you that I would not think of dedicating my time to it if I did not consider your conversion excellent.

 

I have always thought that the NES version is also graphically derived from the arcade version and that most of the graphic differences are motivated by the desire to maintain a clean and recognizable appearance, despite the lower resolution. I also agree that some details of Popeye's sprites on NES can be improved, and in fact I was moving in this direction, but I still like to keep some Popeye distinctive features, such as that the big forearms are well recognizable.

 

Anyway, now let the paint dry. Thanks again.

 

Marco