Popeye 7800

[+darryl1970]

Version 2.7 has a lot of palette changes, based of my experience on an actual CRT.

 

The round 2 windows were getting washed out on my CRT.

 

This ship has a more ominous background color, like the arcade.

 

The Popeye banner is filled in on the ship. I struggled with this, because it's not arcade accurate. I had to bend on this, because I think it looks better. The blue on blue can still pop out on an arcade monitor. I figure it's not the same for home CRTs.

 

I still have a long way to go.

 

I also tweaked some more tiles.

 

It will be posted in the first chat.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 27, 2020 by darryl1970

[+Pat Brady]

23 hours ago, Defender_2600 said:

A few years ago, I made a mock up of Popeye in 320A mode with some sprites / tiles overlapped, 12 colors on screen (8 colors for scan line). Today, however, I have more experience, I would use 320C mode + 320A mode and the result would be even better.

 

 

 

Even aside from development effort, DMA time is already an issue, so I don't think 320 is in the cards without cutting back drastically on the number of objects on screen, and also reducing the colors. IMO Darryl has wrought a fantastic balance of sprite size, colors, and number of objects. His original sprites, if you study them pixel-by-pixel, are indeed pretty busy, but overall they convey the essence of the characters.

 

The new one-eye Brutus is definitely cleaner, and makes it more clear what each pixel represents, but to me he looks less angry.

 

Your 320 sprites do look great, though. These are overlaid 320A? When I experimented with overlaid 320A, drawn pixels in my upper layers obscured their "companion" pixels in lower layers. In other words, transparency only works when both pixels of a pair are 0, as described in the Software Guide, though that document is not clear whether that applies for 320A. (With this limitation, 320C is almost always preferable to overlaid 320A IMO.) But in your Brutus sprite, I see beige-brown-beige, and also beige-purple directly above purple-beige. How do you get per-pixel transparency?

[+Defender_2600]

2 hours ago, Pat Brady said:

Even aside from development effort, DMA time is already an issue, so I don't think 320 is in the cards without cutting back drastically on the number of objects on screen

 

I'm pretty optimistic that Popeye can run in 320 mode, have you got to see Darryl's demo?

 

 

 

2 hours ago, Pat Brady said:

The new one-eye Brutus is definitely cleaner, and makes it more clear what each pixel represents, but to me he looks less angry.

 

I understand what you mean, however in the previous version there are no recognizable details but only a zone with dithering. Personally, I prefer the new one-eye version.

 

2 hours ago, Pat Brady said:

Your 320 sprites do look great, though. These are overlaid 320A? When I experimented with overlaid 320A, drawn pixels in my upper layers obscured their "companion" pixels in lower layers. In other words, transparency only works when both pixels of a pair are 0, as described in the Software Guide, though that document is not clear whether that applies for 320A. (With this limitation, 320C is almost always preferable to overlaid 320A IMO.) But in your Brutus sprite, I see beige-brown-beige, and also beige-purple directly above purple-beige. How do you get per-pixel transparency?

 

No, as you well described, you don't get per-pixel transparency. I made that mock up in 2016 and still didn't understand it correctly. However, there are not many pixels to modify and I think it is still a valid example to show the potential of graphics in 320 mode, but you're right I should have specified that there were some imperfections. Congratulations on your eyes.

 

[+darryl1970]

6 hours ago, Pat Brady said:

 

Even aside from development effort, DMA time is already an issue, so I don't think 320 is in the cards without cutting back drastically on the number of objects on screen, and also reducing the colors. IMO Darryl has wrought a fantastic balance of sprite size, colors, and number of objects.

I think you are right that DMA time may be an issue. I am not sure if my demo is a full indicator, since I am drawing 160A tiles across the screen in 320 mode. I think it might take twice as many tiles to fill the horizontal screen. If I just "flip the switch", I get this:

...So, I am only plotting half the screen... I think?

 

The full 320 complications are all unknown, but I know that plotting twice as many horizontal characters would be a HUGE hit. Since 320 mode uses those bits for color information, I assume my tileset sizes would grow. It would be a LOT, now that I am talking through it.

 

You have seen some of the obstacles I have had to overcome along the way. I remember when I couldn't get the center ladder to plot. If I had the ladder rungs up too high, Brutus, Popeye, and one Sea Hag bottle would cause the sprites to not plot on that row. I thought that I could never expect Brutus to throw up to 4 bottles on top of that. I was fortunate to discover that plotting my "blank" space with blank tiles from my first tileset made a huge difference.

 

Since that discovery, I kept pushing the boundaries. I added up to 4 bottles from Brutus, more falling items, and a skull. I have really pushed it to the limit I think. It has been like a game of Jenga, and I think one more thing might cause the stack to tumble. lol.

 

 I also do not have ANY graphics space left. One or two more screen tiles will cause bad things to happen. Even if I don't run out of space I am to the point where code will display in my sprite plots. I have to plot the Popeye Life head high on the 2nd level, else I get garbage in the bottom area: (And yes, I setting it to only plot one zone.)

 

I can also plot Popeye's head too low to fix the issue. I may keep it here:

 

If I add any more code, I start to get these artifacts under the bottles and Brutus when he jumps down. I believe this is from using dmaholes.

 

Finally, I have had to fight a lot to eliminate slowdown already. 320 is still a pipe dream. Maybe I'll revisit it someday, but I want to get this solid. Maybe I would have to limit some other things. It's hard to say. I have another game in mind for 320 mode. I just need an editor that will correctly mimick the 320 pixel patterns.

6 hours ago, Pat Brady said:

His original sprites, if you study them pixel-by-pixel, are indeed pretty busy, but overall they convey the essence of the characters.

Thank you. I appreciate that. I tried to capture the things that stood out to me as a child. I can't explain it. It's not that I retained things in a photographic kind of way. I remember concepts that grabbed my attention. It was the little things that made me feel the game was alive, so-to-speak. I appreciate that you seem to share the same appreciation for the details that stood out to me.

6 hours ago, Pat Brady said:

The new one-eye Brutus is definitely cleaner, and makes it more clear what each pixel represents, but to me he looks less angry.

I know. I think my original Brutus face was kind of like those 3-D pictures that one stares into. I always saw his eyes and eyebrows. Once I looked at it from a different perspective, the combination of all the pixels started to look like Brutus was wearing glasses.  I couldn't unsee it after that. I could see where others may see it from the other perspective, and I didn't want to leave that ambiguity.

 

As a child, I used to stare at the arcade machine in the attract mode. (I still do as an adult). A lot of what I draw in my sprites are things that stood out to me. I felt it needed to be captured. Some are things that I sorely missed in other ports. One of those things was his "angry" eyes. I wanted to try to capture that "feel".  I appreciate that you see that too. Some of these sprites were drawn quickly, because I needed a frame for the functionality that I wanted to add. I may still revisit and refine some things, but there are a lot of things that are captured in the sprites that I don't want to lose. Often these are things that stood out to me as a child, and they have meaning to me. When I want to change something, I sometimes "blow it up". If it looks the same when I put it back together, I know that's where I wanted to land. Sometimes I am afraid of loosing something I feel I captured. There are still a couple of things I can't seem to get where I want.

 

Similarly, the logic of the game isn't 1-to-1 with the arcade. I remember certain "behaviors" that stood out to me, and I tried to capture those. I remember what felt smart, predictable, and unpredictable about Brutus. So, when I watch Brutus in the arcade, I try to recreate a similar personality, and I try to balance that with the difficulty. (I also remember what the ports of that version captured and lacked. I wanted to try to up the bar.) My scores on the arcade and this version are very similar. I may score slightly higher in the 7800 version, but not always. So, I am going for the things I felt, and noticed, while playing the arcade. I am happy that many have shared they connected to people here too.

 

[gambler172]

Hi Darryl

 

i tried the 2.6 version on my real Ntsc hardware...

it works excellent.....but only one life is not enough ?

but when playing on any of my Pal systems....it

crashes after the title screen.....older versions

worked.

Edited November 28, 2020 by gambler172

[gambler172]

Hi Darryl

2.7 works great on my Ntsc systems...on Pal it crashes

[+darryl1970]

1 hour ago, gambler172 said:

Hi Darryl

2.7 works great on my Ntsc systems...on Pal it crashes

I meant to post a Pal trial version. I must have left that on my desktop at home, without pressing submit. Lol. I'll do that when I'm home.

[gambler172]

27 minutes ago, darryl1970 said:

I meant to post a Pal trial version. I must have left that on my desktop at home, without pressing submit. Lol. I'll do that when I'm home.

No hurry....i have my Ntsc ?

Btw....Pokey sounds good

[+darryl1970]

Thanks @gambler172. When I get closer to having a good solid foundation, I will check the PAL issue.

 

For now, I tried just changing the 7800 Basic flag to PAL. This works in emulation, but I can't guarantee it will translate well for an actual PAL device.

 

Let me know if this work. If so, it's a good sign for an easier future.

Popeye(Beta2.7a_Demo_PAL-test).a78

 

*** Just got home, and here's the message as it was unsent... lol. ***

[gambler172]

Hi Darryl

the 2.7 Pal does not work.When start playing,it crashes

2.3 version,was the last,which works on Pal.

Edited November 29, 2020 by gambler172

[+Defender_2600]

On 11/28/2020 at 1:39 PM, darryl1970 said:

Some of these sprites were drawn quickly, because I needed a frame for the functionality that I wanted to add. I may still revisit and refine some things, but there are a lot of things that are captured in the sprites that I don't want to lose. Often these are things that stood out to me as a child, and they have meaning to me. When I want to change something, I sometimes "blow it up". If it looks the same when I put it back together, I know that's where I wanted to land. Sometimes I am afraid of loosing something I feel I captured. There are still a couple of things I can't seem to get where I want.

 

Darryl, it is understandable that you had little time to draw the graphics, considering that you have almost finished the game in just three months. Probably, in the same time frame, I would have completed only the graphics or maybe not even. I agree with you, certainly there is room for improvement, so if you say that you could still revisit and refine some things, I would like to encourage you, if you are not in a hurry to call the game "done".

 

But before getting to refine the details of a sprite, I would also suggest you keep your concentration on anatomical proportions and perspective, working on not just one sprite at a time but on the complete set of sprites of each animation, in order to better preserve the alignment that the sprites had in the original version (it is always useful, also in this case that we have fewer sprites available than in the arcade version). Another advantage, when drawing graphics in 160 modes, is obtained by getting used to drawing directly with the large pixel rather than with the square pixel, so as not to subsequently find unexpected proportions and too fat details on real hardware. And finally, the details that are certainly a delicate part, where sometimes even a couple of pixels can make the difference and dozens and dozens of tweaks may be needed before finding that magical balance that finally makes you satisfied. Of course, this approach requires time, experience and obviously the right motivation but the results obtained can be truly brilliant.

 

I'm also showing you a couple of new Popeye sprites that I've been curious to draw, in case you like them or be useful. I also redesigned a version in 320 mode but this time I used the 320C mode, it requires patience because you need to manually check each pair of pixels but in some circumstances it can be more versatile and colorful than the 320B mode. For too many years the 320C mode has had the bad reputation of being an outline mode and not useful in the creation of games, which is absolutely not true and that I finally understood after seeing the precious EricBall table and I really think the 320C mode has a bright future.

 

Anyway, can't wait to see the next updates.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[+Pat Brady]

1 hour ago, Defender_2600 said:

I also redesigned a version in 320 mode but this time I used the 320C mode, it requires patience because you need to manually check each pair of pixels but in some circumstances it can be more versatile and colorful than the 320B mode. For too many years the 320C mode has had the bad reputation of being an outline mode and not useful in the creation of games, which is absolutely not true and that I finally understood after seeing the precious EricBall table and I really think the 320C mode has a bright future.

 

I totally agree with this! I am sort of baffled by 320C's bad reputation. It is really very similar to overlaid 320A, but with more colors and less DMA cost.

[Atariboy2600]

Here's a quick pencil drawing on the box art as a idea on how it would look like 

[SalemFrost7800]

How ironic is it that the 1980 Popeye movie was just released on Blu-Ray, I got my copy in the mail today.

[7800Knight]

@Atariboy2600 That concept looks amazing!

[Synthpopalooza]

Oh in regards 320 mode ...

 

I did a method once of 8 colors plus BG onscreen in 320B.  The idea is swap your character set pointer every VBLANK and checkerboard your colors together.

 

Drawbacks:  Anything using 01 as a base color can't be paired with 00 background in the same frame so it restricts what you can mix. .i.e. blending 00 and 01 on opposite frames.  This can be overcome by turning on Kangaroo mode and killing transparency. 

 

My Sky Scraper 2115 demo does this on the title screen.  Both palettes are used, so 8t's actually 16 colors plus BG in 320B, 8 plus BG per palette.

 

Also:  PAL systems have slower refresh, so the effect is more noticeable,  but perhaps mitigated by the high resolution.

Edited December 3, 2020 by Synthpopalooza

[Atariboy2600]

On 12/1/2020 at 7:33 PM, 7800Knight said:

@Atariboy2600 That concept looks amazing!

Thanks and soon Ill clean it up in ink and colored ^_^

[+Defender_2600]

On 12/1/2020 at 7:51 AM, Pat Brady said:

 

I totally agree with this! I am sort of baffled by 320C's bad reputation. It is really very similar to overlaid 320A, but with more colors and less DMA cost.

 

Speaking of overlaid 320A mode, DMA cost, and RevEng's ingenious code efficiency  ... in the example below, you can count 153 sprites (including 147 Small Webs) and I'm not counting the background tiles ... 

 

 

 

 

 

And again, RevEng's ingenious code efficiency   

 

 

 

Edited December 4, 2020 by Defender_2600

[ZylonBane]

On 12/1/2020 at 1:40 PM, SalemFrost7800 said:

How ironic is it that the 1980 Popeye movie was just released on Blu-Ray

Protip: "Ironic" is not a synonym for "coincidence."

[tep392]

Amazing work Darryl!  I just discovered this today.  Looking forward to purchasing some day.

[+darryl1970]

23 minutes ago, tep392 said:

Amazing work Darryl!  I just discovered this today.  Looking forward to purchasing some day.

Thank you! Good to see you. It's been a while.

[sodarun]

I just played this and WOW ?

[+Stephen]

On 12/4/2020 at 5:05 PM, ZylonBane said:

Protip: "Ironic" is not a synonym for "coincidence."

Have you ever actually contributed anything besides snarky (and sometimes funny) comments?

[Atariboy2600]

Almost done Ill color the background and shade the characters

[+darryl1970]

22 hours ago, Atariboy2600 said:

Almost done Ill color the background and shade the characters

Pretty exciting to see it all come together!