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Stupid Geneve 9640 questions.


KG7PFS

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How compatible is the Geneve with ti 99/4a software? What about hardware? (I assume I can't connect a ti 99/4a to a PE box with a Geneve 9640 in it.) Is there any software specifically for the Geneve? I've seen references to a mouse. Does it have a GUI or point & click apps?

 

Is there anything the Geneve can do that the 99/4a can't do slower?

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Well, the Geneve has a 9938 so if you re comparing to a stock TI-99/4A, better graphics and 80 column capability for a start.  There are quite a few programs for the Geneve for its "MDOS" mode.  The two most predominant applications I use is the 80 column MyWord and the GenPROG package which is an assembler, linker, etc.  I've also got a a terminal emulator originally written by Mike Riccio as a serial terminal emulator that will do ANSI and acts as a Telnet client in 80 column with file transfer (Xmodem) capability.

 

There is also Advanced Basic, and it was just this week someone posted a link to all the games a particular gentleman wrote in Abasic that looks to be some of the best games written specifically for the Geneve I have seen.

 

That's just the start of the list of things and I will let others chime in.


Beery

 

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check this out on my website https://ti99resources.wordpress.com/software/

(straight to the download files)> https://drive.google.com/file/d/17uFTjtg9GKgKPS0WlZ6czOFibeBhU5v4/view

I just updated a MAME/MESS package with all you need to run latest MAME or MESS and it boots to a full hd with lots of stuff to play with. Plus it has a lot of documents.

 

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9 minutes ago, hloberg said:

check this out on my website https://ti99resources.wordpress.com/software/

(straight to the download files)> https://drive.google.com/file/d/17uFTjtg9GKgKPS0WlZ6czOFibeBhU5v4/view

I just updated a MAME/MESS package with all you need to run latest MAME or MESS and it boots to a full hd with lots of stuff to play with. Plus it has a lot of documents.

 

No thanks, I don't use emulators.

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The 4A side of the Geneve feels like a 4A emulator to me. 

 

Expansion card compatibility is quirky. 

 

There are newer expansion for the 4A that the Geneve can't support. Most notably, higher capacity bank switched cartridges. And then some F18A based software.

 

Expanding RAM use is available, but different, so as we start to build on the 4A SAMS library, it also cannot work on the Geneve without being rewritten.

 

In the retro computing hobby it cannot replace a 4A. It is simply a different beast with different strengths.

 

 

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16 minutes ago, jedimatt42 said:

The 4A side of the Geneve feels like a 4A emulator to me. 

It sounds like it to me too. I don't like emulators, and I won't involve a P.C. in the classic network. I really like the old "TV, tape disk and cartridge" home  computers, and the big 4 (I require 4) from the early 80's are the CoCo 2, Atari something, C64, and ti 99/4a. I was hoping for a 1985-86 version of the 99/4a, like the C128 etc. The Geneve *sounds* (so far) more like an "Amiga equivalent" (like Amiga, Atari ST, Archimedes, etc.) with very little native software. I am probably wrong about software, but

 

27 minutes ago, jedimatt42 said:

In the retro computing hobby it cannot replace a 4A. It is simply a different beast with different strengths.

Probably not what I'm looking for right now, but considering it's strengths, I really wish it was better known.

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native software for the Geneve consist of; translated infocom games, myword, myart, tetris, conversion of some tomy tutor games, ABASIC, MDOS, a terminal program, a windows manager, a few other conversions such as Directory Manager and that's about it. It was a good idea that never took form. What it is, mostly, is an MSX2 with a 9995 processor instead of a Z80. So if someone wanted to spend a lot of time they could possibly convert some MSX2 software. That was done with some games on the Coleco (MSX like) to the TI99. But it would take a lot of time. 

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8 minutes ago, hloberg said:

native software for the Geneve consist of; translated infocom games, myword, myart, tetris, conversion of some tomy tutor games, ABASIC, MDOS, a terminal program, a windows manager, a few other conversions such as Directory Manager and that's about it. It was a good idea that never took form. What it is, mostly, is an MSX2 with a 9995 processor instead of a Z80. So if someone wanted to spend a lot of time they could possibly convert some MSX2 software. That was done with some games on the Coleco (MSX like) to the TI99. But it would take a lot of time. 

Wow, that's really too bad. The hardware (once you figure out what works well together) looks amazing.

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I prefer my TI-99/4A with all upgrades.  But with F18A I am still not be able to do all 80 column applications as was possible with the Mechatronic 80 col expansion (side car) 

 

I do not have experience with PEB box 80 col.cards.

 

With the Geneve 9640 and MDOS and TI Mode  I am able to do the 80 col. applications (still exploring if time allows), but if all 80 Col. work with F18A on TI I find it more easier to add Speech (for Geneve i have the rave99 adapter), use modules (Finalgrom, exbas 2.7 suite),  TIPI,  

 

I have usee MYART programm and YAPP and SectorOne

But want to try ABASIC and now just learnt of Lee which program to use to do compiling and linking (had no clue).

 

Also I have all emulator versions that exist running on a laptop. To do comparisons or check if the program works or not.

 

 

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I'm biased in my opinion both from a historical perspective and as someone who has owned and used a Geneve for the past 30 years.

 

To the best of my knowledge, some 3,000 Geneves were manufactured.  Limited availability aside, its feature set converged with and complemented the TI feature set.  At the time of release, it was built to run faster, had 9938 video support (80 columns/higher res graphics/analog RGB), was compatible with most 99/4a software, and could use the relevant hardware of the day including speech, floppy devices, HFDC, ramdisks, RS232, joysticks. Clock and spooler add-on cards were not needed as these functions were baked into Geneve hardware/software.

 

Programmers took advantage of the 80 column support to write software that worked with the Geneve and TI-based 9938/9958 devices.  Many Geneve programmers also owned TIs and that desire for compatibility often guided their programming efforts.  Some of us wrote programs for the native OS and/or reworked programs to enhance them with Geneve feature support.  Others worked to improve and expand the OS itself.  The TI and Geneve community worked together to promote hardware and software compatibility between the two computers. 

 

The Geneve doesn't have a cartridge port; the neat 'cartridge' of the time was the Gram Kracker.  The Geneve's built-in 8K RAM (supercart) and GROM emulation (64K) matched that feature set nicely.  Cartridge dumps became popular and people corrected incompatibilities between 9918/9938 register configuration.  The Geneve memory mapping method (which predates SAMS) was a simple byte write to one of 8 pre-defined mapper addresses.  This made for simple context switches and multitasking capabilities. 

 

Why do I still use my Geneve?  I like the OS, I like programming native Geneve programs, and I like the speed. I write my /4A and Geneve programs using the real iron whenever possible and while I don't avoid emulation and PC-based cross-assemblers, I find much more enjoyment creating software on the real thing.   I've never expected 100% TI compatibility nor has that hampered my enjoyment for the Geneve - I have my TI if I am so inclined to go down that path.

 

Overall the Geneve was quite the leap forward for those who could obtain one, however, these days the Geneve is probably not as "attractive" for those interested in using newer, "incompatible" hardware or have an interest in recent cartridge*-based games.  It's expandability is somewhat hampered and it has its quirks.  Prospective owners need to consider these factors and decide for themselves. 

 

*(current ROM-based cartridges up to 256K - more if the Geneve is expanded - can be compiled to be compatible with a Geneve by changing the video/sound ports and implementing a replacement mapper routine.  This has been tested successfully with at least one unreleased multi-bank program to date.  Edit: the keyscan routine may also require replacement; joysticks are CRU-compatible)

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One particular, important aspect that should be stressed is that the Geneve forms a platform of itself with a set of features that you can rely on as a programmer. Regardless of the value of all the classic and modern expansions of the TI, all of them certainly fascinating projects, the Geneve offers those features in a bundle. You have an advanced video processor with the V9938, you have a mouse, you have DRAM and SRAM memory, a PC keyboard, high performance, and one operating system. It is this combination what makes the machine so interesting to me.

 

And, one of the major points as well, it is largely compatible with the TI-99/4A software. There are only a few programs that can't be run, for instance, when they access hardware directly (like the keyboard). But overall, I did not miss anything; you can tune down the speed so that old programs still run at a comfortable pace, or let it run and see how fast the 9995 actually is.

 

Nowadays, I'm using my Geneve mostly on the MAME emulation, since I do not perceive any relevant difference to the real machine - but I keep it on my desk for verifying emulation on it. I believe I learned to live with emulation just by the GPL mode of the Geneve, which simulates the TI. It would be weird if an emulation software author did not like emulation, actually.

 

While I wrote GPL mode programs at the beginning, I switched to native mode soon, since I believed this is the "true" mode to run the Geneve, with a better memory layout and of course the XOP support routines.

 

Overall, the Geneve kept me in the TI community. I am pretty sure I would not be on this forum without it.

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There are also a significant more number of programs than what has been mentioned here available for MDOS mode for the Geneve.  It really all boils down to what do you want to do with a "retro" computer.  Programs such as The Printer's Apprentice, MDOS Forth, and The Geometer's Apprentice were commerical applications that were quite versatile that really have no counterparts except Forth itself which Lee has done a great job.  Lee actually borrowed some things from MDOS for his floating point library to speed mathematical calculations. Another excellent program is/was HyperCopy.  Allowed copying floppies faster than anything else that has ever been released.  Disk copiers now are now much less used.

 

There is also another program, Gentri, that was a combination terminal emulator, word processor, and disk manager wrapped up in one package.  If I recall, you could work on 3 documents at once, and I think it even had cut/paste capability.  It's been a long time since I used it as I preferred MyWord over it as most of my work was programming, not writing documents to be printed and read.

 

I will also say that without the Geneve, some development on the TI-99/4A may not have occurred.  Take for example the SCSI card.  The card had been designed and built, but no DSR had been written for it until after the card was working on the Geneve.  After it was working on the Geneve, then appropriate code was then able to be developed and the DSR written for it.  Lee actually borrowed some things from MDOS for his floating point library to speed mathematical calculations in Forth.  He could have used the 4A GPL routines, but it would have been slower.

 

If you are into retro computing, you need to ask yourself what is it you want to do.  If you are into playing games, then really the frontier right now is with a TI-99/4A and the SAMS with a TIPI.

 

However, if you are wanting to learn assembly language programming, I can tell you without a doubt, it is much easier to program on the Geneve 9640 than it is a TI-99/4A.  If you want to setup graphics mode and draw a line from point a to point b, the total amount of code is under a dozen lines.  Can't do that on a TI-99/4A.  File I/O is also much simpler for handling data.

 

If you want to do Basic programming, the versatility for what you can do in Abasic is access to all the graphics mode.  There are also programming languages including c99, Fortran, Forth, and the PSystem.  I don't know of anyone that has written anything for the PSystem as it was so late and only a couple of users ever messed with it.

 

If you are looking to develop something commercial for the Geneve, software wise you would be very lucky to ever get a dozen sales.  Hardware wise is a different story depending upon what you develop.  Will you make money (profit), nope.

 

Here is one other thing some people may want to consider.  A Geneve makes a wonderful tool even for programming on the TI-99/4A.  If you do not want to use non- 9900/9995 applications (windows, linux) to program, writing program code within MyWord in 80 columns and using the GenPROG package will make the assembly and linkage process so much quicker.

 

As an example, while the TI-99/4A could assemble the individual files to make the object files to make the operating system, there are presently no tools to do so.  Let's pretend there were tools that could piece the 75 to 100 object files all together for the moment.  The assembly process would easily take an hour, if not two or more hours before you started reading all the object files to piece everything together.  One can assemble the complete operating system in a little under 6 minutes including creating the image (136K, or 544 sectors). I recall one programmer indicating he at one time used MESS (precursor to MAME implementation of the Geneve emulation) that when he told the system to assemble MDOS, he could do it in seconds when he told the emulation to run at full Windows speed.  MAME does not have that capability as it has been written to emulate real hardware.

 

Right now, couple the Geneve with a TIPI and a TI-99/4A with a TIPI, your development time can be greatly reduced as you can interchange completed programs to the 4A with very minimal effort and time.  Myself, floppy disk drives are almost a thing of the past.

 

As I said, it is what interest you.  If you are purely into games, then the TI-99/4A is the route.  If you want to program and learn coding, it is much easier to start on a Geneve if you have no experience.

 

Myself, I rarely play games.  It is more development at the moment.  I like seeing what I can have the computer do that maybe nobody else has done before.

 

Beery

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Oh you make me want to go get a geneve.

OH, I've got one! Hopefully mine will be here next week, since @shift838 fixed all it's problems!

see, I found one but it was close to death, actually it's not supposed to be working, but we invested the money and found hard to get parts and that's only the reason mine works again.

parts are becoming rare.

Edited by GDMike
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We are hoping to at some point in time, have a Github repository where future development efforts can occur.  That's my dream, but for that to really occur for the Geneve, other things have to  happen.  Will it happen?  Hard to say as everyone has busy schedules and their own personal projects.

 

As far as @FarmerPotato and his Geneve 2020, the next release of MDOS and a Geneve Eprom upgrade will have the ability to boot directly from the TIPI  which should assist @FarmerPotato in getting file I/O capability for development if he wants to connect with existing TI-99/4A or Geneve hardware.  Either way, it would open the ability to file i/o and other capabilities provided by TIPI more easily than developing other new hardware right off the bat as well to have a functioning platform for development and testing.

 

 

 

 

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4 minutes ago, BeeryMiller said:

We are hoping to at some point in time, have a Github repository where future development efforts can occur.  That's my dream, but for that to really occur for the Geneve, other things have to  happen.  Will it happen?  Hard to say as everyone has busy schedules and their own personal projects.

 

As far as @FarmerPotato and his Geneve 2020, the next release of MDOS and a Geneve Eprom upgrade will have the ability to boot directly from the TIPI  which should assist @FarmerPotato in getting file I/O capability for development if he wants to connect with existing TI-99/4A or Geneve hardware.  Either way, it would open the ability to file i/o and other capabilities provided by TIPI more easily than developing other new hardware right off the bat as well to have a functioning platform for development and testing.

 

 

 

 

I would like to do a page on TI99resources just for the Geneve but I really need more than the little I found so far. This could be a good place for people to see what is Geneve and increase interest.

 @BeeryMiller , if you have a lot more native Geneve could you post it? I would like to added more native to the MAME Genve package.

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I think one of the things that held back the interest in the Geneve is the C128 factor. The C128 was a powerful machine but it got a reputation as being nothing more than souped & up over pricedn C64 so it never really sold that well. I think a lot of people think the Geneve is the same, a souped & up over priced TI99. I know I did till i started researching it. So we need more native games and software.

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2 minutes ago, BeeryMiller said:

We are hoping to at some point in time, have a Github repository where future development efforts can occur.  That's my dream, but for that to really occur for the Geneve, other things have to  happen.  Will it happen?  Hard to say as everyone has busy schedules and their own personal projects.

 

As far as @FarmerPotato and his Geneve 2020, the next release of MDOS and a Geneve Eprom upgrade will have the ability to boot directly from the TIPI  which should assist @FarmerPotato in getting file I/O capability for development if he wants to connect with existing TI-99/4A or Geneve hardware.  Either way, it would open the ability to file i/o and other capabilities provided by TIPI more easily than developing other new hardware right off the bat as well to have a functioning platform for development and testing.

 

 

 

 

Ahh, that would require me to make a TIPI interface.

 

I guess if the TIPI hardware interface is just some GPIO pins, present at the expected CRU base (1200)  it might not be too difficult. MDOS would already have the native code for it.  I don't have to write new code!

 

I'm still aiming at runs-MDOS-binary with no modifications. Probably going to fail somewhere, but I can hope. Any XOPs can be patched at the BIOS level, then they branch into MDOS code for that XOP. That allows necessary patches.

 

I have SD card support in the second set of goals. It too is GPIO, for a SPI interface to SD. But it is backed by a lot of new code in the BIOS. A (Level 2) direct file access model will be available in a new XOP into the BIOS. Level 3 can be borrowed from another project (say, Horizon Ramdisk) and build on that. Internally, SD is on a FAT32 filesystem for easy file transfer.

 

TIPI would be really nice. I would use git on the Pi! All Geneve2020 development is open source on Gitlab.

 

 

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1 hour ago, BeeryMiller said:

We are hoping to at some point in time, have a Github repository where future development efforts can occur.  That's my dream, but for that to really occur for the Geneve, other things have to  happen.  Will it happen?  Hard to say as everyone has busy schedules and their own personal projects.

 

I am a Git expert: call on me if you are blocked there. I imagine you still need some easy to use TIPI scripts to make it work--I can do those. (Also I like Gitlab, not a big difference.)

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4 hours ago, BeeryMiller said:

Here is one other thing some people may want to consider.  A Geneve makes a wonderful tool even for programming on the TI-99/4A.  If you do not want to use non- 9900/9995 applications (windows, linux) to program, writing program code within MyWord in 80 columns and using the GenPROG package will make the assembly and linkage process so much quicker.

 

In 1989, I started using GenProg for anything (4A programs mainly). Then, to simplify things, I ported to native MDOS without too much dependencies. Not sure how I would get back to GPL mode code after  I used too much memory... but this toolchain worked for me, and replaced Editor/Assembler (or Funlweb)

 

1 floppy disk:

AUTOEXEC - sets up a DSK5 ramdisk and copies all the tools and source code there.

QDE - Nice editor in native MDOS, edit source code, drop to command prompt when done 

DOIT - batch file runs GenAsm and GenLink to produce a program, AQA

!DOIT - input file to GenLink describing the link process for native MDOS (earlier I had a GPL flavor too)

AQA - run my game

2nd floppy disk has my game files

Reboot (why I never made an exit function I dunno)

 

AQA was an RPG that Graig Donini and I developed over the 80s. The maps were great. It had the overworld. Dungeons and towns you could enter. The graphics were created with much care, but it didn't have much interaction besides whack-an-orc. (I was really stumped doing any computer AI.) Most of my time over the years went into (always new versions of) the map editing mode, and map printer!  So when I stopped around 1992, it was a Geneve native game. (Then I ported it to Mac, and drifted away to Linux...)

 

I had a similar GenProg toolchain to assemble Bubble Plane (4A 32K cart of the floppy version), and GWAFR (a GPL mode 9938 fractals program, never released.)

 

 

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2 hours ago, BeeryMiller said:

We are hoping to at some point in time, have a Github repository where future development efforts can occur.  That's my dream, but for that to really occur for the Geneve, other things have to  happen.  Will it happen?  Hard to say as everyone has busy schedules and their own personal projects.

 

As far as @FarmerPotato and his Geneve 2020, the next release of MDOS and a Geneve Eprom upgrade will have the ability to boot directly from the TIPI  which should assist @FarmerPotato in getting file I/O capability for development if he wants to connect with existing TI-99/4A or Geneve hardware.  Either way, it would open the ability to file i/o and other capabilities provided by TIPI more easily than developing other new hardware right off the bat as well to have a functioning platform for development and testing.

 

 

 

 

I can set up one and invite you and tim and whoever else.. lmk

 

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26 minutes ago, FarmerPotato said:

 

In 1989, I started using GenProg for anything (4A programs mainly). Then, to simplify things, I ported to native MDOS without too much dependencies. Not sure how I would get back to GPL mode code after  I used too much memory... but this toolchain worked for me, and replaced Editor/Assembler (or Funlweb)

 

1 floppy disk:

AUTOEXEC - sets up a DSK5 ramdisk and copies all the tools and source code there.

QDE - Nice editor in native MDOS, edit source code, drop to command prompt when done 

DOIT - batch file runs GenAsm and GenLink to produce a program, AQA

!DOIT - input file to GenLink describing the link process for native MDOS (earlier I had a GPL flavor too)

AQA - run my game

2nd floppy disk has my game files

Reboot (why I never made an exit function I dunno)

 

AQA was an RPG that Graig Donini and I developed over the 80s. The maps were great. It had the overworld. Dungeons and towns you could enter. The graphics were created with much care, but it didn't have much interaction besides whack-an-orc. (I was really stumped doing any computer AI.) Most of my time over the years went into (always new versions of) the map editing mode, and map printer!  So when I stopped around 1992, it was a Geneve native game. (Then I ported it to Mac, and drifted away to Linux...)

 

I had a similar GenProg toolchain to assemble Bubble Plane (4A 32K cart of the floppy version), and GWAFR (a GPL mode 9938 fractals program, never released.)

 

 

cool :)  is AQA somewhere available to try? or is it undistributed?

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26 minutes ago, FarmerPotato said:

 

I am a Git expert: call on me if you are blocked there. I imagine you still need some easy to use TIPI scripts to make it work--I can do those. (Also I like Gitlab, not a big difference.)

 

I'm not blocked anymore.  That was changed this past weekend after my account was reviewed.

 

Getting the DIS/VAR 80 files to TIPI is easy.  I can do a drag and drop to GitHub with either files with TIFILES headers which lead to unreadable source as they are not.TXT files or they can be converted with TIDIR and then dropped.  I posted in another topic area about a wish list for TIDIR.

 

I forget the specific github terminology, but what would be preferred would be able to upload the .txt files that have changed where anyone can submit, but only select people can approve the code changes.

 

In the grand scheme of things, if a user with a telnet client could connect to the TIPI in localhost:23, a script would run that would convert the local DIS/VAR 80 files into TXT files, and then when someone wanted to get the updates to the current source, another script that would check out the appropriate updated files and load them back to the TIPI as DIS/VAR 80 files.

 

There is a challenge that if the files are copied from the TIPI and back to a ramdisk or other hard drive, and then back to the TIPI again, everything is given a new datestamp so things all look new (updated).  It is not an issue if the assembly process was taking place on a Geneve/TIPI combo except it is slower for the assembly process as the HRD or local hard drive is faster.  For assembling MDOS, it is a 5 minute ramdisk assembly versus a 20 minute assembly process from the TIPI if you do a full assembly.  I don't know how to get around this issue so at least the source files would be managed on the TIPI. Then, the other issue is that in a non-Geneve system, files saved with some controller cards will not even have a date stamp.  So, what may be needed may be very specific to the Geneve. 

 

In the best situation and I have exchanged notes with Ralph, if xdt99 supported or had workarounds where things could be assembled and linked to form MDOS, then all one had to do was transfer MDOS back to the TIPI.

 

As far as the Geneve 2020, if you could emulate the TIPI interface, that may be one DSR you would not have to write for at least the MDOS side of things and would open up a lot of potential.  For some reason, I thought you were going to have some kind of interface to some existing TI/Geneve peripherals.  Its been a couple of weeks since I last reviewed your notes.

 

Beery

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, hloberg said:

I would like to do a page on TI99resources just for the Geneve but I really need more than the little I found so far. This could be a good place for people to see what is Geneve and increase interest.

 @BeeryMiller , if you have a lot more native Geneve could you post it? I would like to added more native to the MAME Genve package.

I have quite a bit of software, however I will say my time is a bit limited though it may not seem apparent.  It may be simpler to start another topic looking for software that has been mentioned and having others provide links to the programs or provide the programs from their libraries.  Quite a few new program names were given above, so that may be a good first start.

 

Just saying right now, what free time I do have at home in front of my Geneve, I have devoted to other time consuming projects.  I would not want myself to be the focal point as there is just too many things going on with the Geneve already.

 

Beery

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25 minutes ago, arcadeshopper said:

I can set up one and invite you and tim and whoever else.. lmk

 

I have something I have been playing around with, and I think Tim has done something probably similar but not committed anything yet that is useable.  Right now, more of a proof of concept.


Beery

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