MiSTer FPGA - 7800 Core

[+mksmith]

7 hours ago, Muddyfunster said:

 

@mksmithThis is what I went with (analogue IO board, 128MB ram, USB board and some top/bottom plates + a more beefy PSU). Overkill for 7800 but I plan to do more in the future.

 

Must admit I'd love one !

[RevEng]

I must admit that you'd love one, too.

[PacManPlus]

Ok...  I think I need one of these...

[Kitrinx]

16 hours ago, Trebor said:

Check under the specific "ATARI7800" Core's tab Audio & Video - Scandoubler Fx.   CRT 50%, and more so, CRT 75% will darken things considerably (CRT 25% and HQ2x should also be available).

 

Then, under "System", if the Scale Filters and Gamma Corrections options are leveraged, they can manipulate the screen output from slightly to very greatly, dependent on selection.

 

I tend to leave Gamma correction off, and Scale Filter on Interpolation (Sharp) for the "System" options.  Under "ATARI7800", Scandoubler Fx is set to CRT 50%.

 

Different strokes for different folks, but the aforementioned settings work best for me overall.  Of course, the display's output will make quite the difference as well. The Insignia I mostly use for it is much brighter than the ASUS I sometimes may utilize.

 

P.S.  So jealous, BTW.  I should have went with this...https://misteraddons.com/products/mister-bundles  Standard IO option.  Kicking myself now, not realizing how much I like it and the convenience.  May have to go with that purchase sooner than later, but pretty content with my relatively minimalistic setup (for now). 

 

There's a few helpful things. For 31khz CRT users, there is the scandoubler options as mentioned above, for HDMI users it's preferable to use the video filters. The scandoubler modes will double the resolution pre-scaler, so it can create some odd behavior from filters and integer scaling that might cause people some confusion. I prefer "Scanlines Soft", but it's a matter of taste. You should have a variety of them available already if you've run the updater script.

 

Secondly, I find old systems like this benefit significantly from an audio filter around 6khz. I don't know if the original system had anything like this or not, but I find it really takes the edge off the more shrill TIA sounds that pop up. Those don't download automatically yet, but you can find them here:
https://github.com/MiSTer-devel/Filters_MiSTer/tree/master/Filters_Audio

 

For both CRT users and HDMI users there is also the "composite blending" option. It doesn't produce artifact colors, but it does blend in the same horizontal style as composite to make things like tower toppler a nice experience. This looks best with a soft video filter over it, like soft scanlines. It also works for analog video, so it's quite helpful on RGB displays like PVM's.

 

If you're an HDMI user and use the 1080p resolution, there is also the 216p cropping. This crops the image down to 216 lines making it perfectly integer scaled at 1080p, taking up the whole screen vertically. Since so many games on the 7800 have large margins, this works pretty well.

 

Lastly there is an under-represented option in the MiSTer.ini file that you will almost certainly want to play with. vsync_adjust=2 will make the video output at the original refresh of the system, and use a low latency mode with your HDMI television which takes the output latency down to about 10 scanlines of delay. This will get you an extremely smooth and responsive picture if your television can handle it (most do).

 

And Trebor.. one nice thing about MiSTer is you can start pretty minimalist and work your way up. Back in 2018 I had basically a de10 with an otg hub and a home-made ram board, now I have one of MiSTerAddon's swanky aluminum case with all the bells and whistles. I'll just say again.. you WILL want the RAM board, at least 32mb. This is required for many of the cores to run, including the 7800 core. Fortunately it's widely available and pretty inexpensive.

[Trebor]

21 hours ago, Kitrinx said:

There's a few helpful things. For 31khz CRT users, there is the scandoubler options as mentioned above, for HDMI users it's preferable to use the video filters. The scandoubler modes will double the resolution pre-scaler, so it can create some odd behavior from filters and integer scaling that might cause people some confusion. I prefer "Scanlines Soft", but it's a matter of taste. You should have a variety of them available already if you've run the updater script.

My displays experience a very obviously uneven look with the dots in Ms. Pac-Man, particularly noticeable with the topmost row of dots under the cherry and strawberry maze that runs the entire width for almost every option tried.  That issue is minimized and gives the most even look across that area and the entire maze, while looking great for all the other games as well, with the combination mentioned.  This is from both under the Insignia as well as ASUS display over HDMI.

 

Some of the other items tried and set from the "ATARI7800" Core 'Audio & Video' section via HDMI:

 

-Scale: "Normal" is the one the maintains a well-sized image.  "V-Integer", "Narrower HV-Integer", "Wider HV-Integer" leaves everything way too small.

-Aspect Ration: "Original".  "Full Screen", as expected, stretches the display to fill it more horizontally.

-Show Overscan: "Yes".  Choosing "No" cuts out too much of the area I am accustomed to seeing on my CRT.

-Show Border: "No".  Honestly don't recall the difference with "Yes" - at least not under the games I played with the other settings that are in place.

-Composite Blending: "No", except if playing Tower Toppler or Jinx.  Then I set to "Yes".

-Temperature Colors: "Warm" offers the best balance for all titles and I typically just leave it as is the vast majority of the time.  Though ideally, for some games like Galaga and Joust "Cool" looks best.  Others like Midnight Mutants and Choplifter!, "Hot" tends to give best appearance.

 

In conjunction with the above, setting Scandoubler Fx: None, for the core, then over to overall "System" section with the filter Scanlines (Soft) just made for a similar look with the aforementioned row of dots appearing uneven in height, but now with scanlines. 

 

Though the various other Scanline options were tried too: Bright Sharp, Bright Soft, Sharp.  "LCD Effects" folder was leveraged and the 01-09 'vanilla' listings, as well as the 5 "Blur", and 2 "Br" effects.  Also were tried is at least one of the levels under the various categories from the "Normal Upscaling" folder.  Also tried "Scanlines (Bright)" folder, and the "Scanlines (Vertical)" one.  "SNES Specific" folder was even tried, but the Gameboy related ones were skipped.

 

In all those trials, the best (combination) result was selecting "Interpolation (Sharp)" and then under the "ATARI7800" Core, CRT 50%.  The logic behind it may be at a loss, but just sharing my experience and testing, and as mentioned, matter of taste.

 

FWIW, that same overall 'System' setting "Interpolation (Sharp)" and Scandoubler Fx 'Core' setting "CRT 50%", looks great for many of the other systems it has been tried on as well:  C64, ColecoVision, Genesis, MegaCD, NES, SMS, SNES, TurboGrafx16 (CD).   Though granted, other video options unique to a particular core may have been tweaked/selected too or not applicable/missing from those sited.

 

More importantly folks, if you haven't picked this up yet, do it.  The level of compatibility and near exact console behavior is incredible.  Outside of the BupChip for sound (Though it plays Rikki & Vikki with its TIA sound effects only), everything else, and then some, it supports.   The attention to detail is off the charts.  It's super fast as far as navigating through the settings and changing ROMs, which run instantaneously. There's the option to skip the BIOS too, which runs 99%+ of the ROMs perfectly fine without it.  Don't even need a keyboard after initial setup of the MiSTer, as all navigation is through a gamepad: swap cores, select ROMs, and changing system options including all related video and audio ones.

[Kitrinx]

51 minutes ago, Trebor said:

My displays experience a very obviously uneven look with the dots in Ms. Pac-Man, particularly noticeable with the topmost row of dots under the cherry and strawberry maze that runs the entire width for almost every option tried.  That issue is minimized and gives the most even look across that area and the entire maze, while looking great for all the other games as well, with the combination mentioned.  This is from both under the Insignia as well as ASUS display over HDMI.

 

I think what you're looking for is vertical integer scaling. That will make all the dots (and scanlines) even vertically. Using softer interpolation also helps with this. If you have scandoubler on, interpolation will only do 1/2 as good a job, so you'll end up with inadequate interpolation to make the screen look even.

[Trebor]

9 minutes ago, Kitrinx said:

I think what you're looking for is vertical integer scaling. That will make all the dots (and scanlines) even vertically.

Agreed, considering current options and circumstance. Under emulation, I never had to bother with integer screen scaling as the screen effects were enough to offset or blend with the interpolation utilized.  I believe you have nailed the issue here though...

12 minutes ago, Kitrinx said:

Using softer interpolation also helps with this.

Tried searching for an Interpolation (Soft) option...The Interpolation options available are "Interpolation (Sharp)", "No Interpolation", "SNES Interpolation (Sharp)".  If there is a soft interpolation option, would love to try it out.

20 minutes ago, Kitrinx said:

If you have scandoubler on, interpolation will only do 1/2 as good a job, so you'll end up with inadequate interpolation to make the screen look even.

Understood; however, the 1/2 good a job is better than any of the alternative screen option combinations tried so far.

[Kitrinx]

16 minutes ago, Trebor said:

Tried searching for an Interpolation (Soft) option...The Interpolation options available are "Interpolation (Sharp)", "No Interpolation", "SNES Interpolation (Sharp)".  If there is a soft interpolation option, would love to try it out.

 

If you have not, also make sure you've set the video resolution to your display's native resolution (I assume 1080p) in the MiSTer.ini file.

 

If you look in the "Normal Upscaling" folder you will find a list of various scaling methods with levels of sharpness, perhaps you can find something in there that appeals to you.

Here's three examples:
Soft Scanlines with vertical integer scaling,

Gaussian sharp 04 with integer scaling

Gaussian sharp 04 without integer scaling

[Kitrinx]

I've finally released this core, it's now available in the MiSTer FPGA repo or via the update script.

 

These are the features for the initial release:

 

- Runs complete Atari 7800 retail library.
- Supports NTSC and PAL regions.
- Supports High Score Cart saving.
- Supports Light Guns, Trakballs, Mice, Quadtari, and Paddles.
- XEGS Keyboard support via POKEY at $450 or $4000.
- Dual Pokey audio.
- YM2151 Audio using Jotego's JT51.
- Supports Covox.
- Support for XM and XBoard modules.
- Supports Activision, Absolute, Souper, and Supergame mappers up to 1mb.
- Choice of Cool, Warm, or Hot system temperature color output.

 

Note that 2600 compatibility is not enabled yet as it needs a bit more work.

 

I'd like to specially thank RevEng and Trebor for their help and expertise.

 

I hope you enjoy

[ITAdvantage]

8 hours ago, Kitrinx said:

I've finally released this core, it's now available in the MiSTer FPGA repo or via the update script.

 

These are the features for the initial release:

 

- Runs complete Atari 7800 retail library.
- Supports NTSC and PAL regions.
- Supports High Score Cart saving.
- Supports Light Guns, Trakballs, Mice, Quadtari, and Paddles.
- XEGS Keyboard support via POKEY at $450 or $4000.
- Dual Pokey audio.
- YM2151 Audio using Jotego's JT51.
- Supports Covox.
- Support for XM and XBoard modules.
- Supports Activision, Absolute, Souper, and Supergame mappers up to 1mb.
- Choice of Cool, Warm, or Hot system temperature color output.

 

Note that 2600 compatibility is not enabled yet as it needs a bit more work.

 

I'd like to specially thank RevEng and Trebor for their help and expertise.

 

I hope you enjoy

I gave it a shot and played many of the games and had no issues whatsoever.  I have a 7800 and this looked and sounded just like it.  I don't have anything useful to contribute other than my appreciation for the release and admiration on getting this accomplished.  I'm in awe of you and all of the MiSTer contributors.  

[Lan Di]

I just tried this 7800 core on my MiSTer and I'm impressed by the accuracy. I'm using a Sony PVM and I had my AV modded 7800 connected via composite, and the MiSTer connected via RGB to compare. The sound is indistinguishable.  The visuals of course are better on the MiSTer because of RGB output. Besides that, the accuracy is freakishly amazing.

[SegaSnatcher]

Really digging this core and I'm actually enjoying using stereo mode even though 7800 wasn't a stereo system, actually sounds pretty good.  

[+remowilliams]

21 hours ago, Kitrinx said:

I've finally released this core, it's now available in the MiSTer FPGA repo or via the update script.

 

The core is a really impressive piece of work, thank you for all the effort that you put into it (and thanks to the folks providing assistance and knowledge as well)   

 

For those who are new to the world of MiSTer (and to Kitrinx's point) you don't have to go all in with bells and whistles right out of the gate, you can start minimally and still have an awesome MiSTer.  I just made this one out of my spare DE10-nano, an extra older handmade 64MB SDRAM board, and a case printed from the nifty Prusa Galaxy Black filament.  Adding a homemade Daemonbite to the mix gives super low latency DB9 controller input as well.

 

 

 

[Kitrinx]

If anyone has a SNAC + Atarivox + MiSTer, I'd be curious if atarivox works with one of the 7800 test roms for it this way.

[+mksmith]

Well done all!

[john_q_atari]

I placed an order from misteraddons for the fan/plate/heatsink and a 128MB sdram module thinking I would just use the de-10 nano I already had. But turns out I actually had a de0-nano ?

So I ordered a de10-nano from elsewhere and now am just waiting for my misteraddons order. Has anyone ever ordered from them or have any idea how long the turn around time normally is for them to process and ship an order?

 

 

 

[John Stamos Mullet]

This emulator core looks great, but the whole MiSTer ecosystem makes absolutely no sense.
 

It's like taking a hardcore hobbyist platform, and then making it more difficult than a puzzle from the 90's game Myst to figure out what to buy, where to buy it, and how to get it all up and running without getting your head bitten off by snobby, provincial enthusiasts who get all protective of their community when people ask basic questions like "why is this better than Raspberry pi?"

[Keatah]

It doesn't have to make sense as long as it makes fun. MiSTer may not make sense to everyone. And that is O.K.

 

All these small form factor solutions like Intel Nuc and R-Pi and MiSTer are simply choices in a hobby that has room for many platforms. It is possible to enjoy both SoftwareEmulation and FPGA together. Do it right and they become complimentary to each other.

 

Setting up a MiSTer rig should be little or no more difficult than configuring MAME or any other first class software emulator.

 

As for snobby provincial enthusiasts.. They everywhere. In every hobby.

Edited April 29, 2021 by Keatah

[+5-11under]

6 hours ago, John Stamos Mullet said:

This emulator core looks great, but the whole MiSTer ecosystem makes absolutely no sense.
 

It's like taking a hardcore hobbyist platform, and then making it more difficult than a puzzle from the 90's game Myst to figure out what to buy, where to buy it, and how to get it all up and running without getting your head bitten off by snobby, provincial enthusiasts who get all protective of their community when people ask basic questions like "why is this better than Raspberry pi?"

It's actually pretty simple for most applications, although I did find that a bit of research is required, and there was some outdated information online.

Find the hardware options available and what works best for you, and find a relatively new guide that includes mr. fusion and the update_all script. Personally I bought the DE10-nano, a 32MB memory card (works for ~99% of the games/systems), an OTG USB hub (comes in handy having a keyboard for set-up, as well as your controller), and a 32 GB microSD card (with enough games for a lifetime).

 

As for the provincial enthusiasts, I'm sure there's snobbery all around in whatever options you're using to play games... Mac, PC, Linux, Pi, MiSTer, original hardware, iDevice, Android.

 

My personal comparison to Raspberry Pi... I think it's better than the Raspberry Pi for stability (no issues found with power and shutting down and upgrading), simple file structure that's compatible with Windows, and the systems run great. It's quick and responsive. It's got the systems I want to play... I'm loving the arcade games, and I'm hoping a few more get added soon. The UI is simple, which is great (but if there was screen shots and manuals that were as easy to update as the rest of the system, I'd jump on that, too). Of course there's some growing pains in that some systems aren't 100% yet (same for Pi), and it's more expensive than a Pi. Pi seems to have more newer systems available to emulate, but the MiSTer has loads of classic computers. I've made Pi systems. None of them stuck around. The MiSTer is staying.

 

[John Stamos Mullet]

1 hour ago, 5-11under said:

It's actually pretty simple for most applications, although I did find that a bit of research is required, and there was some outdated information online.

Find the hardware options available and what works best for you, and find a relatively new guide that includes mr. fusion and the update_all script. Personally I bought the DE10-nano, a 32MB memory card (works for ~99% of the games/systems), an OTG USB hub (comes in handy having a keyboard for set-up, as well as your controller), and a 32 GB microSD card (with enough games for a lifetime).

 

 

 

In researching whether I should get one to replace the RPi in my arcade cab for increased emulation quality and accuracy, these two items were the biggest stumbling blocks. The lackof recent, well written information on how to get everything up and running, and not having a repository that is easy to read and find is frustrating.

 

but then trying tor figure out what I actually had to buy, and where to buy it all, since from what I gather it seems you need multiple parts and they aren't all made by the same people, and most sites seem to show either a backordered status on critical parts, or a completely ambiguous delivery timeframe, so you have to take a kind of "junkyard/flea market" approach to hoping you can find availability online - made me less than enthusiastic.

[youxia]

It's true that there are quite a lot of insufferable types in the FPGA world, who sometimes exhibit borderline cultist attitudes. Luckily, you'll never have to interact with them if you don't want to, because the whole thing is nowhere near as complicated as people like to paint it (this vastly exaggerated complaint being a good example). It really shouldn't be too hard to spend an hour or so reading MiSTer's Wiki, and then searching for something like "buy mister fpga" to find a seller near by. And it's overall magnitudes easier to handle than Retropie with its myriad convoluted configs and options.

 

As for "why is it better than RPi", MiSTer's main selling point is the lack of lag. The rest of its pluses are a bit more vague: the superior accuracy is not always true (depends on how mature a core is) and in any case most people won't be able to tell the difference from emulators. There's also the "feel" which some people swear by, that it's more like real hardware. This comes from the super fast boot time, simple menus, general snappiness. It does work, I must admit, even though I was initially skeptical about it.

For CRT fans it's the hands down best solution out there, delivering 1:1 image without any settings-hell nightmare of other solutions. But that's a rather niche subset of users.

 

In short, there's a lot of silly hype behind MiSter, but it also has a lot going for it too. It's just another solution in the retro world, and its always good to have more choices. Myself, I a used RPi for a couple of years, it's pretty good for what it does, but I wouldn't go back (not only because of the CRT thing).

 

 

[John Stamos Mullet]

22 minutes ago, youxia said:

It's true that there are quite a lot of insufferable types in the FPGA world, who sometimes exhibit borderline cultist attitudes. Luckily, you'll never have to interact with them if you don't want to, because the whole thing is nowhere near as complicated as people like to paint it (this vastly exaggerated complaint being a good example). It really shouldn't be too hard to spend an hour or so reading MiSTer's Wiki, and then searching for something like "buy mister fpga" to find a seller near by. And it's overall magnitudes easier to handle than Retropie with its myriad convoluted configs and options.

 

As for "why is it better than RPi", MiSTer's main selling point is the lack of lag. The rest of its pluses are a bit more vague: the superior accuracy is not always true (depends on how mature a core is) and in any case most people won't be able to tell the difference from emulators. There's also the "feel" which some people swear by, that it's more like real hardware. This comes from the super fast boot time, simple menus, general snappiness. It does work, I must admit, even though I was initially skeptical about it.

For CRT fans it's the hands down best solution out there, delivering 1:1 image without any settings-hell nightmare of other solutions. But that's a rather niche subset of users.

 

In short, there's a lot of silly hype behind MiSter, but it also has a lot going for it too. It's just another solution in the retro world, and its always good to have more choices. Myself, I a used RPi for a couple of years, it's pretty good for what it does, but I wouldn't go back (not only because of the CRT thing).

 

 

top search result that wasn't a link to other people on other forums asking "Where can I buy all this stuff?"

 

https://www.retrorgb.com/mister.html

 

cool, a list of all the stuff I'd need to buy!

Wow, that's a long list of stuff.

$175 for the basic board, with none of the other stuff? yikes.

here, let me get some ram:

 

So I can buy the board, but I can't buy ram?

 

Never mind.

[youxia]

Do you really always go for "top link" and stop there when checking something on the web? I did mention MiSTer's Wiki, which is usually the best point of starting with anything.

You know very well that MiSTer is a hobbyist, cottage industry project, not a mass-market gadget, and also that there is covid going on, causing all sorts of disruptions in electronics. So perhaps it's worth diving a bit deeper than Amazon, and also acknowledging that during this silly time not everything is insta-available?

 

From top 10 results for "buy mister fpga":

https://misteraddons.com/products/sdram-xsd-2-5-128mb

https://ultimatemister.com/product/xs-d128/

https://misterfpga.co.uk/product/mister-sdram-128mb-module/

 

 

But, anyway, it really sounds like you're just being obstinate, so perhaps there is not much point commenting. Perhaps paying through the nose for NT Mini or some such would be a better idea than conjuring weak charges against MiSTer.

[John Stamos Mullet]

50 minutes ago, youxia said:

It's true that there are quite a lot of insufferable types in the FPGA world, who sometimes exhibit borderline cultist attitudes. Luckily, you'll never have to interact with them if you don't want to,

 

 

 

 

5 minutes ago, youxia said:

But, anyway, it really sounds like you're just being obstinate, so perhaps there is not much point commenting. Perhaps paying through the nose for NT Mini or some such would be a better idea than conjuring weak charges against MiSTer.

[youxia]

Lol, right, I so do apologise for my obnoxiousness. After all it's rather obvious you came here with an honest inquiry, an open mind, and it wasn't at all a crude attempt at trolling