Why Atari 5200 was considerate a fail?

[BladeJunker]

10 hours ago, zzip said:

Yeah, I don't think they knew what to do at that point.   For one the 2600 was incredibly popular right before the crash, and it doesn't make sense to kill the golden goose,  but on the other hand the 2600 tech was ancient at that point, it was increasingly struggling to bring good arcade ports and was getting beat up on graphics by Intellivision and soon Colecovision, so Atari felt the pressure to be competitive with them before they stole Atari's marketshare.   Then when Tramiel took over Atari,  they didn't believe in innovating much for the old product lines,  just in selling huge volumes of them at low prices as long as people would buy them.   They kept the 2600 alive for years after it should have been done because it was still selling well in the 3rd world.

True, I think about it often, what could have been done to keep Atari as big as it was. ? I think at least companies like Activision managed to port arcade titles better than most but I really think a new joystick wasn't an unreasonable measure even in that market, we weren't buying 5200s so lets expand the platform we're sticking with for a while. But sure I've seen the Plimpton ads and Coleco's monolith DK port that was so good.

Was just mocking a YT guy for 2600 bashing, apparently the golden age was the PS2 era now.  I appreciate all generations of video games, you can only measure them against the era they were made in.

 

Not a big Tramiel fan myself but he did pay off Atari's massive debt in the aftermath. I liked his low cost approach to computers like the C64 but he made few exceptions to that rule, much to his detriment, hated the Jaguar I hear. However I still think the Amiga line was a bit too expensive for it's own good.

Yeah there was a lot of global sales afterwards, I have a few 5200 games that came back from Venezuela when game stock was shipped south after the crash. At the very least that gave the 2600 a strong worldwide following.

[zzip]

On 3/26/2021 at 6:32 PM, 1980gamer said:

I got 3 $9.99 games from Mastertronix I think?  The Last V-8, Some Motor Cycle game? and maybe UXB 

I guess my glasses were fogged..  The Last V-8 was not that bad, just very hard to control.  The motor cycle game was bad!  UXB was kinda cool looking but pretty boring.

Yeah Last V-8 was very hard to control,  I never got that far in it.   Was the motorcycle game "Action Biker" by chance?   I had that game and thought it was kinda cool at first, maybe due to novelty because I had never seen a game give an open isometric world to move around in like that..   but it soon became apparent that there wasn't much point, and its controls were pretty bad too.

 

On 3/26/2021 at 6:32 PM, 1980gamer said:

1 last winner for the 5200.   QIX.  Love this game!  I don't remember this game on other consoles.  Maybe it just missed it?  But I first played it on the 5200... Instantly hooked.

Qix was also on the Atari 8-bit,  but it wasn't the same as the 5200 version.   The 5200 version looked more like the arcade version.  

 

On 3/26/2021 at 6:48 PM, MrTrust said:

I wonder if all that dead inventory never made its way across the country, and if they may not have sat on video game stuff as long.  One difference it seems is that, growing up, most stores had pretty generous return policies.  Didn't like the game?  They'd take it back no questions asked.  Even Electronics Boutique would swap out games for us well into the 90s without a hassle, but this does not appear to be a typical practice from what I hear.

It might have depended on the year,  I remember late 80s, our Electronics Boutique absolutely refused to return or exchange games for a different title if it was opened.   You could exchange it for a different copy of the same game, and that was it. 

 

My friend bought a PC game that just refused to work with his Tandy 1000, so he wanted a different game.  EB didn't care.  Eventually we figured out that we could exchange the game for a sealed copy, then come back when different employees were working, and exchange the sealed copy for a different game.   It worked!

 

On 3/26/2021 at 7:56 PM, Turbo-Torch said:

All the major department stores had kiosks you could play, and that dates back to Pong systems.  For some reason, I can't recall ever seeing a 5200 on display.  Maybe because they knew the controllers would shit the bed after a week? lol

I do remember seeing 5200 systems on display,  but I think sometimes they were behind the counter and not playable by the customer.   I do remember playing it in some stores though.

 

On 3/26/2021 at 7:56 PM, Turbo-Torch said:

Atari waits until November and gives you a 1976 arcade game as the pack-in, which was already done twice on the 2600.   A few months earlier with Ms. Pac-Man or Zaxxon as the pack-in would have given Coleco some competition that Christmas.

Coleco had the Zaxxon license.  I don't think Ms Pac came out until 83?   Pac-man probably should have been the pack-in from the start.   The two hottest arcade games of that era were Pac-man and Donkey Kong,  so that would have been a great head-to-head matchup.   But if Ms Pacman was available, that would have been a great pack-in too..  that game seemed to gain popularity as the original declined.

[zzip]

On 3/26/2021 at 8:50 PM, BladeJunker said:

True, I think about it often, what could have been done to keep Atari as big as it was. ? I think at least companies like Activision managed to port arcade titles better than most but I really think a new joystick wasn't an unreasonable measure even in that market, we weren't buying 5200s so lets expand the platform we're sticking with for a while. But sure I've seen the Plimpton ads and Coleco's monolith DK port that was so good.

The biggest thing that hurt Atari IMO was the perception in 1984 that consoles were a dead product.   Warner would have needed to stop the bleeding right the ship and then pounce as the market rebounded.   The had a formidable marketing machine and an arcade division that kept supplying them with hot IPs.  Tramiel separated the arcade division, destroyed Atari's videogame marketing know-how and basically ensured they'd never be a threat to Nintendo.

 

I think there might have been a chance under Warner or a different buyer, if Atari management learned to stop shooting themselves in the foot!

[Keatah]

7 hours ago, zzip said:

It might have depended on the year,  I remember late 80s, our Electronics Boutique absolutely refused to return or exchange games for a different title if it was opened.   You could exchange it for a different copy of the same game, and that was it. 

 

My friend bought a PC game that just refused to work with his Tandy 1000, so he wanted a different game.  EB didn't care.  Eventually we figured out that we could exchange the game for a sealed copy, then come back when different employees were working, and exchange the sealed copy for a different game.   It worked!

Ha! Indeed. This worked for a long time. Some stored deployed countermeasures against it. They would open the game in the store for you.

[1980gamer]

3 minutes ago, Keatah said:

Ha! Indeed. This worked for a long time. Some stored deployed countermeasures against it. They would open the game in the store for you.

OMG.  Yes, I remember that!  I remember arguing that it was a gift and I didn't want it opened!  And walking away with no sale.   I cannot remember the store, but I never went back!

 

We had a lot of stores in my area that carried some software but very limited amounts.  Zayre later Ames.   Caldor, Service Merchandise, Montgomery Wards etc.

Speaking of WARDS...  I got my Super Action Controllers for $10.  I should have got Turbo and the 2600 module too...  But I didn't think 1 or 2 games was worth the steering wheel and I already had the Intellivsion 2600 and an Actual VCS already.  I don't remember if they had slither? Roller Controller.

 

7 hours ago, zzip said:

Yeah Last V-8 was very hard to control,  I never got that far in it.   Was the motorcycle game "Action Biker" by chance?   I had that game and thought it was kinda cool at first, maybe due to novelty because I had never seen a game give an open isometric world to move around in like that..   but it soon became apparent that there wasn't much point, and its controls were pretty bad too.

I did some digging.  The motor cycle game was Speed King.   The UXB game...  That may have been the company that made the game?  But I think it was called UXB  it was kind of a xevious game  But this is mid to late 80's..

I am old and don't fully remember!  

 

I did like the voice and music in Last V-8  I just sucked at it!  Oh Beach Head II if I remember had digitized voice too...  Man, I need to get a C64!

 

[zzip]

2 hours ago, Keatah said:

Ha! Indeed. This worked for a long time. Some stored deployed countermeasures against it. They would open the game in the store for you.

Or like Gamestop where they opened it before you even got there?

 

59 minutes ago, 1980gamer said:

We had a lot of stores in my area that carried some software but very limited amounts.  Zayre later Ames.   Caldor, Service Merchandise, Montgomery Wards etc.

Service Merchandise was annoying because you'd see the game on display, fill out the order card, wait for the employee to enter it in the computer,  go stand by pick-up for 20 minutes only to have them send a slip saying it was out of stock!   Would have been nice to know that before I wasted so much time!

 

[Turbo-Torch]

12 hours ago, zzip said:

Coleco had the Zaxxon license.  I don't think Ms Pac came out until 83?

 

Actually, the arcade Ms. Pac was 1981.  DK was also 1981 and Coleco managed to get it out the door in just a bit over a year.  It would have been cutting it close, but just think if Atari could have done the same with Ms. Pac-Man on the 5200 by Christmas '82.

 

Or how about Centipede?  Also an '81 arcade game by Atari and a huge hit.  When they eventually released it, you couldn't ask for a better port and it worked great with the controllers.  And what better way to upsell the trak-ball!  You own the game, you love it...now think of how much better it can be with our arcade quality trak-ball?

Pac-Man was getting a bit played out by late '82, but yeah, it still would have been 100X better than Breakout.

 

Did the Zaxxon license give dibs to Coleco allowing them to release it on their console first?  Seems Sega eventually licensed it to everyone, even my TRS-80 Model III has an official version published through Cogito.

 

 

[Turbo-Torch]

3 hours ago, zzip said:

Service Merchandise was annoying because you'd see the game on display, fill out the order card, wait for the employee to enter it in the computer,  go stand by pick-up for 20 minutes only to have them send a slip saying it was out of stock!   Would have been nice to know that before I wasted so much time!

 

You never used the Silent Sam data terminal?  Find your name in the system, punch in the catalog number and head over to the conveyor belt near the cash registers.  If the item wasn't in stock, it would tell you.

 

Probably 99.9% of the population back then received their catalog.  If you wanted to prank call someone and their phone number was unlisted, all you had to do was go to Service Merchandise and enter their name into the Silent Sam.  All their personal information appeared instantly.

Then just for the heck of it, select a few dozen huge items under their name and watch them pile up at the end of the conveyor as you left the store.  I always wondered if the person got an angry phone call or blackballed from Service Merchandise after doing that. 

 

[Ricardo Cividanes da Silva]

Maybe one of the problems for Atari 5200 has been Atari failing to get a license for the great games of the Arcades, since Coleco  got all.

[mr_me]

9 hours ago, Turbo-Torch said:

 

Actually, the arcade Ms. Pac was 1981.  DK was also 1981 and Coleco managed to get it out the door in just a bit over a year.  It would have been cutting it close, but just think if Atari could have done the same with Ms. Pac-Man on the 5200 by Christmas '82.

 

Or how about Centipede?  Also an '81 arcade game by Atari and a huge hit.  When they eventually released it, you couldn't ask for a better port and it worked great with the controllers.  And what better way to upsell the trak-ball!  You own the game, you love it...now think of how much better it can be with our arcade quality trak-ball?

Pac-Man was getting a bit played out by late '82, but yeah, it still would have been 100X better than Breakout.

 

Did the Zaxxon license give dibs to Coleco allowing them to release it on their console first?  Seems Sega eventually licensed it to everyone, even my TRS-80 Model III has an official version published through Cogito.

Arcade Ms Pacman came out in early 1982.  It wouldn't have been much trouble if someone had a home conversion of pacman to modify it for ms pacman.  The license is another matter.  Namco may not have been ready to license ms pacman in 1982. Pacman was still huge for atari in 1982, selling millions of cartridges and consoles.

 

It was a bold move for coleco to give away for free what would have been their best selling cartridge, let alone one that pays a royalty to a third party.  It wasn't an easy decision for coleco, and was definitely key to them beating Atari for the next generation consoles.  Zaxxon was an exclusive for coleco for home consoles, home computers excluded.

 

 

48 minutes ago, Ricardo Cividanes da Silva said:

Maybe one of the problems for Atari 5200 has been Atari failing to get a license for the great games of the Arcades, since Coleco  got all.

I'd say Atari had the better arcade licenses by far.  E.g. Defender, Robotron, Joust, Missile Command, Asteroids, Centipede, Pole Position, Dig Dug, Galaxian, Ms Pacman, Mario Brothers.  But Donkey Kong was a big one for Coleco and given away for free on colecovision.

Edited March 30, 2021 by mr_me

[zzip]

10 hours ago, Turbo-Torch said:

Actually, the arcade Ms. Pac was 1981.  DK was also 1981 and Coleco managed to get it out the door in just a bit over a year.  It would have been cutting it close, but just think if Atari could have done the same with Ms. Pac-Man on the 5200 by Christmas '82.

But the home version of Ms. Pac came out in early 83 on 2600 I think?  not sure about the 5200 version, but I'd guess it would have appeared around the same time.

10 hours ago, Turbo-Torch said:

Did the Zaxxon license give dibs to Coleco allowing them to release it on their console first?  Seems Sega eventually licensed it to everyone, even my TRS-80 Model III has an official version published through Cogito.

I believe Coleco had the console license.   Datasoft released on on computers, followed by Sega.   It may have been licensed by media type rather than console vs computer.  For instance, it seems that Sega licensed Parker Bros to produce Frogger carts, but Sierra and Starpath had licenses to produce cassette and disk versions,  That's how Atari computers got 3 different versions of Frogger.

 

10 hours ago, Turbo-Torch said:

 

You never used the Silent Sam data terminal?  Find your name in the system, punch in the catalog number and head over to the conveyor belt near the cash registers.  If the item wasn't in stock, it would tell you.

This was before they installed those.   You had to wait at the counter for the store rep to enter your order and pay.   Apparently their computer didn't always tell them when it was out of stock because more than once I found out after waiting for it to come down the conveyor belt..   The Sam terminals were nice when they arrived.

 

1 hour ago, Ricardo Cividanes da Silva said:

Maybe one of the problems for Atari 5200 has been Atari failing to get a license for the great games of the Arcades, since Coleco  got all.

Coleco had Donkey Kong, DKjr and Zaxxon, but a lot of their other arcade licenses were 2nd tier games that weren't quite as popular..   Mousetrap, Lady Bug, Venture..  etc.    I would say Atari had more of the bigger-name arcade games licensed, plus they had their own arcade division that kept producing hits.   But that all ended when Atari was sold in 84, and the arcade division became separate.

[Ricardo Cividanes da Silva]

The Atari concentrated efforts in 2600 games same with Arcade games licencing and own games and 5200 received much less games causing less attention to the system.

[mr_me]

I agree that in 1982 Atari should have promoted atari 5200 pacman over 2600 pacman.  Going into Christmas 1982, the Atari 5200 had Defender, Centipede, Missile Command, Pacman, Qix, Galaxian, Space Invaders, Super Breakout.

 

Colecovision had Donkey Kong, Zaxxon, Carnival, Venture, Cosmic Avenger, Lady Bug, Mouse Trap, Turbo.  I like the 5200 lineup better. 

 

In 1983 Atari started releasing cartridges for Colecovision but Coleco didn't release one cartridge for the 5200.  In 1984 third party publishers and developers continued to make cartridges for colecovision while atari discontinued the 5200.

Edited March 30, 2021 by mr_me

[jetset]

On 3/24/2021 at 5:25 PM, Allan said:

How are you guys defining the 'fail'? Seems to me they sold a ton of 5200s. Was it perfect? No. Was the Colecovision perfect? No. Was the Atari 7800 a failure? I think a lot of classic gaming history is made up right here on AtariAge.

^This
I genuinely never heard about the non self-centering joysticks being a problem until the internet took hold and collecting became a thing. Me and several friends had one, and in truth, though the fire buttons were a pain in the ass, (every six months or so they'd stop working.) learning to just bring the controller back to the center manually was easy. My town had a little mom & pop tv store that was an Atari licensed repair shop. $5 bucks and they worked perfectly again (he probably just opened it up, used a pencil eraser and alcohol on the circuit and put it back). I think the reason most people bash the controllers is they have "Angry Videogame Nerd" syndrome. Played once or twice, and because it's difficult at first, they bash them. Just about every controller back then had a learning curve, apart from the 2600. The CV sticks were imo WAY worse, particularly with having fire button #1 & #2 on OPPOSITE sides of the controller, making it damn near impossible to play 2 button games. The 7800 sticks were like trying to move a tree they were so stiff (also opposite side firing buttons.) And lest we not forget the Intellivision controllers. But people who owned those systems learned how to use them with just a little practice.

Failure? I think it was more lazily done sabotage on the part of Atari. They rushed the system out the door to compete with the Intellivision but wound up competing with Coleco. They lost miserably and imo it was the pack in game. People wanted "Arcade at home" games, and of the 4 launch titles, Pac-Man, Space Invaders, Galaxian & Breakout they packed in the most boring of the 4, likely in an attempt to force kids to go out after Xmas and buy those titles. CV had Donkey Kong. Had the 5200 released any of the other 3 titles the 5200 would have sold better. Pac-Man would probably have been the best choice, it was still the most popular videogame ever at that point, and compared to the 2600 version it blew me away. As successful as Space Invaders was on the 2600, that or Galaxian would have been fine choices as well.

I was happy as hell Xmas 1982 and saved every penny I had to buy every game when they came out. To me the 5200 was a success, but then the crash came and killed everything anyway.   

 

[BassGuitari]

"Why Atari 5200 was considered a fail?"

 

Probably because it was only on the market for about two years, and people who didn't understand what was happening at Atari or in the industry at large at the time went on the internet and said "lol the controllers," called it a failure, and everybody listened to them. ?‍♂️

[BIGHMW]

On 3/26/2021 at 5:50 PM, BladeJunker said:

True, I think about it often, what could have been done to keep Atari as big as it was. ? I think at least companies like Activision managed to port arcade titles better than most but I really think a new joystick wasn't an unreasonable measure even in that market, we weren't buying 5200s so lets expand the platform we're sticking with for a while. But sure I've seen the Plimpton ads and Coleco's monolith DK port that was so good.

Was just mocking a YT guy for 2600 bashing, apparently the golden age was the PS2 era now.  I appreciate all generations of video games, you can only measure them against the era they were made in.

 

Not a big Tramiel fan myself but he did pay off Atari's massive debt in the aftermath. I liked his low cost approach to computers like the C64 but he made few exceptions to that rule, much to his detriment, hated the Jaguar I hear. However I still think the Amiga line was a bit too expensive for it's own good.

Yeah there was a lot of global sales afterwards, I have a few 5200 games that came back from Venezuela when game stock was shipped south after the crash. At the very least that gave the 2600 a strong worldwide following.

I would LOVE to see Grand Theft Auto for the 5200 and 8-bit XEGS FOR REAL, but the Intellivision version, mockery or not, was funnier than f**k, maybe Bob Saget should take note, even the "ad" was funny, especially when the George Plimpton look alike said "Atari sucks balls" I laughed my head off. Somebody please port GTA for real, even of it has to merely be an 8-bit version of the Intellivision mock up, I'll take that, much like we took Yar's Strike last year (converted by @playsoft last year from the 8-bit port with a few improvements, download here) and made it an instant 5200 hit.

 

 

Yar's Strike.bin

[schuwalker]

On 3/30/2021 at 7:31 AM, mr_me said:

 

I'd say Atari had the better arcade licenses by far.  E.g. Defender, Robotron, Joust, Missile Command, Asteroids, Centipede, Pole Position, Dig Dug, Galaxian, Ms Pacman, Mario Brothers.  But Donkey Kong was a big one for Coleco and given away for free on colecovision.

Colecovison was no slouch either. Dkjr., Time Pilot, Mr.Do, Mouse Trap, Ladybug, Space Fury, Venture, Frenzy, Gorf. The two probably never heard or seen by most in the arcades that really shine are Slither and Pepper II. I actually like all of those Exidy title sans Victory.

[jetset]

2 hours ago, schuwalker said:

Colecovison was no slouch either. Dkjr., Time Pilot, Mr.Do, Mouse Trap, Ladybug, Space Fury, Venture, Frenzy, Gorf. The two probably never heard or seen by most in the arcades that really shine are Slither and Pepper II. I actually like all of those Exidy title sans Victory.

Both had great arcade ports...but had the Coleco pack-in game been something like Fraction Fever...there would have been a lot less of those consoles under the tree at Xmas. That was what we 5200'ites got in Super Breakout.  

[Shaggy the Atarian]

On 3/30/2021 at 8:47 AM, Ricardo Cividanes da Silva said:

The Atari concentrated efforts in 2600 games same with Arcade games licencing and own games and 5200 received much less games causing less attention to the system.

This made sense at the time - If you released a game on the 2600, it was pretty much a guaranteed hit. That couldn't be the case with the 5200, since it didn't have the install base yet, but for the execs who wanted the instant gratification of a hit, they didn't make the best decisions that would have led the system to replacing the 2600 as it should have (speaking from a business sense).

 

Atari did get some games to the 5200 that the 2600 didn't have, but Qix & Space Dungeon (SD is incredibly rare to find in arcades) weren't exactly system sellers. Also that pack-in didn't help - Super Breakout was probably the least exciting game they could have included. Not sure why they didn't opt for Pac-Man, since that was their star license.

 

Although speaking with outsider hindsight, they could have done a new Combat as a pack-in and used that to show off the new capabilities of the system - with better graphics, analog controls, 4-players, throw in some new game modes like Melee Asteroids or 4p Space War and Subs. A port of Combat that took advantage of those things would have been a great way to introduce the system to the public, since it could have shown consumers: "Sure already you know Combat, well here's what you can do with it on the new SuperSystem!" Pac-Man would've done a similar thing since it was way ahead of 2600 Pac in quality but 4-player Combat like that could have been a good system showcase. Super Breakout was just weird (worst pack-in game in history, perhaps?  ) 

 

 Granted, this was the first time that Atari was truly competing with themselves on trying to get people to move their dollars over, so it's not a big surprise that the management decisions caused the 5200 to failed to live up to the bar that the 2600 had set.  

 

Quote

It gives the impression that the system has not been tested. They simply put the Atari 800 in another box and sold it under another name without worrying about the "details".  The Atari administration thought more in profits as quality.

Yeah, the 5200 was a rushed product. That is because the Atari 3200 / Stella X wasn't working out in making the game engineers happy, and with IntelliVision, Coleco, Vectrex and others all churning out new game consoles, Atari was understandably concerned about losing their place in the market. The quick 'n dirty solution was to re-package the 400 and hope that all of those 2600 owners would be dazzled by more of everything - more console (in size  ), more arcade ports that the 2600 couldn't handle, more controller ports, more buttons and direction on the controller, etc. I'd definitely recommend reading the Atari 5200 pages on Atarimuseum.com as it covers the history quite well, or if you really want detail, find a copy of Atari Inc. - Business is Fun.  

 

Quote

I'm not sure how big the backwards compatibility backlash was.  My peer group didn't care about it.   All consoles were mutually incompatible, I can't think of any that had been backwards compatible, so we didn't expect it would be.   Maybe our parents cared?   It was the tail end of a major recession,  money was tight and they didn't want to start over.   I think what really started it was when Coleco made a 2600 game adaptor for Colecovision, and that freaked Atari out, and they needed to make one too..   I think it also heavily influenced their decision to go with the 7800 and axe the 5200 so quickly

Having a competitor come along and offer BC of your old games on their new console, when your own successor system couldn't, was a major embarrassment. As that link above to the Atari 3200 shows however, BC was a part of the original plan for the next system - had they finished the 3200 or not rushed the 5200, then it would have been there. Coleco just solidified the need for it, since Atari themselves heard the backlash quickly (as I recall, there is discussion about this at length in the history book Atari Inc. - Business is Fun). The presence of it on the 7800 and even the development of a 5200/7800 adaptor shows that it was it was a big enough deal to make a priority - it was also one of the reasons that Atari passed up on the NES, as they were terrified of making the same mistake again. 

 

Could they have made it work without BC? Probably. Nintendo & Sega didn't need BC for most of their consoles, but that's because they created new games that would take advantage of whatever new gimmick(s) that the console introduced. The 5200 tried that with better graphics & sound, but not necessarily games (which is why I think that something like a new Combat would have been a good way to do that). It is too bad that some of the 5200's original games like Meebzork, Black Belt and Spitfire didn't see the light of day, as it also needed titles like that. 

[schuwalker]

21 hours ago, jetset said:

Both had great arcade ports...but had the Coleco pack-in game been something like Fraction Fever...there would have been a lot less of those consoles under the tree at Xmas. That was what we 5200'ites got in Super Breakout.  

Absolutely a genius move on Coleco's part and a head scratcher from Ataris going with a paddle game from '78. The 5200 controllers were a big turn off for me. Looking back, I was never really fond of the Colecovision controllers as well.

 

I found over the years that this era of gaming is definitely my favorite albeit was short-lived, I'll group the computer and the arcade scene as well. I have much respect for all the consoles from this timeline.

[schuwalker]

18 hours ago, Shaggy the Atarian said:

 

Atari did get some games to the 5200 that the 2600 didn't have, but Qix & Space Dungeon (SD is incredibly rare to find in arcades) weren't exactly system sellers. Also that pack-in didn't help - Super Breakout was probably the least exciting game they could have included. Not sure why they didn't opt for Pac-Man, since that was their star lice

 

 

Space Dungeon for the 5200 is a weird title for the system per se. As a arcade fanboy/collector, I probably seen a Space Dungeon maybe once bitd. and I'm from the Chicagoland area - HQ for Taito. It's definitely a title that fits the oeuvre of the Colecovision with some of it's esoteric arcade titles... Exidy Victory anyone??? 

[Keatah]

19 hours ago, schuwalker said:

Absolutely a genius move on Coleco's part and a head scratcher from Ataris going with a paddle game from '78. The 5200 controllers were a big turn off for me. Looking back, I was never really fond of the Colecovision controllers as well.

As kids we were never discerning about controllers. We plugged and played and had fun.

 

19 hours ago, schuwalker said:

I found over the years that this era of gaming is definitely my favorite albeit was short-lived, I'll group the computer and the arcade scene as well. I have much respect for all the consoles from this timeline.

Respect indeed. Up to the NES era each console was a unique expression of the new electronic artform of videogaming. Once NES got underway everything started feeling the same. Churn'n'burn. And it hasn't slowed down one iota.

 

[zzip]

On 4/3/2021 at 8:50 AM, schuwalker said:

Colecovison was no slouch either. Dkjr., Time Pilot, Mr.Do, Mouse Trap, Ladybug, Space Fury, Venture, Frenzy, Gorf. The two probably never heard or seen by most in the arcades that really shine are Slither and Pepper II. I actually like all of those Exidy title sans Victory.

Besides DKjr and Gorf,  most of these weren't huge arcade hits,   Mr. Do wasn't as popular as Dig Dug,  Lady Bug and Mouse Trap weren't as popular as Pac-man and Frenzy wasn't as popular as Berzerk.   Atari had more of the bigger names in arcade ports.   That's not to say those games aren't as good or better ( I much prefer Mr. Do over Dig Dug ),  but name recognition matters.

 

On 4/3/2021 at 2:20 PM, Shaggy the Atarian said:

Could they have made it work without BC? Probably. Nintendo & Sega didn't need BC for most of their consoles, but that's because they created new games that would take advantage of whatever new gimmick(s) that the console introduced. The 5200 tried that with better graphics & sound, but not necessarily games (which is why I think that something like a new Combat would have been a good way to do that). It is too bad that some of the 5200's original games like Meebzork, Black Belt and Spitfire didn't see the light of day, as it also needed titles like that. 

history shows that backwards compatibility is not a make-or-break feature,  having the right games is the most important thing.   Looking back at that era, it seems like Atari (and Coleco and Mattel) were reacting to what each other did rather than what the customer wanted.   That's why they all designed bad controllers,  it's why they were engaged in a peripheral arms race (customers in general don't like buying all those peripherals).   Should have put the effort into finding the next big game that would draw people back in (they've played Asteroids, Centipede, Pac-man etc to death by 83/84)   Instead Nintendo found it with SMB.

[schuwalker]

8 hours ago, zzip said:

Besides DKjr and Gorf,  most of these weren't huge arcade hits,   Mr. Do wasn't as popular as Dig Dug,  Lady Bug and Mouse Trap weren't as popular as Pac-man and Frenzy wasn't as popular as Berzerk.   Atari had more of the bigger names in arcade ports.   That's not to say those games aren't as good or better ( I much prefer Mr. Do over Dig Dug ),  but name recognition matters.

 

 

I guess that depends where your are from and what kind of gamer you were. Personally, I think Ladybug and Mousetrap blow Pac-Man out of the water and I think the majority would agree.

 

You really cant compare Exidy games even from Universal to a much higher production run from Atari. Mr. Do definitely held it's own on Dig Dug (remember it was also a kit game). Even Mousetrap and especially Ladybug I saw quite a bit in the arcades bitd. I do agree on Frenzy to Berzerk.

 

I have to find that sheet which lists the production #'s from Atari, but I would bet they almost double the other aforementioned titles.

[Shaggy the Atarian]

On 4/4/2021 at 7:07 AM, schuwalker said:

Space Dungeon for the 5200 is a weird title for the system per se. As a arcade fanboy/collector, I probably seen a Space Dungeon maybe once bitd. and I'm from the Chicagoland area - HQ for Taito. It's definitely a title that fits the oeuvre of the Colecovision with some of it's esoteric arcade titles... Exidy Victory anyone??? 

It's too bad on SD's part, as it pre-dated Robotron 2084, ergo it's the "True" father of the twin stick shooter. I never have come across an arcade cab of it, but I am glad that it did get the 5200 port, as it's the main game that I'll play on the system, once every while that I break it out. I'd take a port on the 7800 too (since I would assume that it could run the game at a higher frame rate and resolution).

 

9 hours ago, zzip said:

history shows that backwards compatibility is not a make-or-break feature,  having the right games is the most important thing.   Looking back at that era, it seems like Atari (and Coleco and Mattel) were reacting to what each other did rather than what the customer wanted.   That's why they all designed bad controllers,  it's why they were engaged in a peripheral arms race (customers in general don't like buying all those peripherals).   Should have put the effort into finding the next big game that would draw people back in (they've played Asteroids, Centipede, Pac-man etc to death by 83/84)   Instead Nintendo found it with SMB.

Agreed on the game side, which is why I mentioned that they should have been focusing on such things. ;) Had a bunch of talent that had made the 2600 what it was not left, or not been required to focus on the 2600 (like HSW focusing on E.T.), then I'm sure that they could have done some cool stuff. Same goes for the 7800, had Warner not sought to dump the company and released that in June/July '84 as planned. 

 

As for BC, I didn't call it a make-or-break feature, but historical context is important. To Ray Kassar, Al Alcorn and anyone else in the company calling the shots back in 1982, this was the first time that Atari was designing a true replacement product to their smash hit. That history you mention hadn't been made yet to show what works and what doesn't for game consoles. From their decision perspective, they had millions of loyal consumers who had already bought their games, so they had planned BC as an innovative feature for the Atari 3200/SystemX.  It only didn't make it due to the rush to have the system out before Christmas '82 (the System X also had a voice chip in it, which was cut). They probably figured "ah, ship it, it'll be fine" since they had other things going for it, until ColecoVision showed up with their 2600 adaptor and then it became a fiasco because, as you point out, they were very reactive to each other. Why would you assume that they would be super reactive over everything but backwards compatibility? If Sony released an adaptor that would allow you to play Switch games on your PS5, that would be a pretty big deal and people would be taking about it decades later - it's really no different than what happened back then. 

 

If you read up on the development of the 7800, it was brought up frequently and made a priority, since the suits felt burned and they didn't want that to happen again; Engineers also specifically mentioned it as one reason to pass on the NES. Also if it didn't matter at all, it wouldn't be mentioned in every system review & hindsight discussion of the Atari 5200 ever published. :P

 

On one note, I found this blog post about "Why the 5200 failed" and apart from BC being mentioned as the first negative, he points out the lack of compatibility with the Atari 400/800 software. Obviously that's less of a big deal, but it was another little crack in the 5200's armor. 

 

16 hours ago, Keatah said:

As kids we were never discerning about controllers. We plugged and played and had fun.

I thought the Pro-Line controllers were fine when I was a kid, until I encountered far superior designs :) You still have to wonder about '82 era controllers though...it's like the people designing them never bothered to use one for more than 2 minutes.