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C64 game suggestions for an Atari 800XL enthusiast?


ldelsarte
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19 minutes ago, Mr Robot said:

I liken it to going into multiple libraries, taking every book off the shelves, tearing off the covers and throwing the pages into a dumpster and then then presenting the dumpster to the public as a combined collection.

I'd much rather have a dumpster full of books with no covers, than a dumpster full of nothing. Nobody says TOSEC is absolutely perfect, just like nobody (I hope) thinks that Wikipedia is a definitive source of knowledge - but they're both extremely useful as-is nonetheless. It's of course also easier to say that helping to sort it out or building an alternative is a "neverending task" and shrug it off, but as somebody who actually has worked on a similar years-long, seemingly-impossible project I'd disagree. Not easy perhaps, and very time consuming, but not impossible either.

 

For these reasons your continuing use of negative hyperbole to describe TOSEC remains very unfair in my opinion. I don't want to completely derail this thread by a pointless argument about it, so I'll just file it under "smh" and leave it at that - similar to complaints about MAME and other mammoth collaborative tasks which, somehow, despite being free, volunteer-driven and ultimately quite awesome, will always attract some naysayers.

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3 minutes ago, youxia said:

I'd much rather have a dumpster full of books with no covers, than a dumpster full of nothing.

I agree, I'm just glad they copied the libraries before they did that so I can still visit the libraries and I don't have to dig through the dumpster. One day I'll be able to run a tool against the tosec files and put in the missing info.

 

3 minutes ago, youxia said:

Nobody says TOSEC is absolutely perfect, just like nobody (I hope) thinks that Wikipedia is a definitive source of knowledge - but they're both extremely useful as-is nonetheless.

I agree. I think we differ on where on the scale they are between 'absolutely' perfect and junk.

 

3 minutes ago, youxia said:

It's of course also easier to say that helping to sort it out or building an alternative is a "neverending task" and shrug it off, but as somebody who actually has worked on a similar years-long, seemingly-impossible project I'd disagree. Not easy perhaps, and very time consuming, but not impossible either.

I'm not the sort of person who says things like that and does nothing about it. I too have been working on similar projects for years and you are right it is extremely time consuming to unravel all the mess and put it right. Like I said there is space in the TNC for all the information, all they did was make it harder to tie the info to the title. 

 

3 minutes ago, youxia said:

For these reasons your continuing use of negative hyperbole to describe TOSEC remains very unfair in my opinion. I don't want to completely derail this thread by a pointless argument about it, so I'll just file it under "smh" and leave it at that - similar to complaints about MAME and other mammoth collaborative tasks which, somehow, despite being free, volunteer-driven and ultimately quite awesome, will always attract some naysayers.

I'm a strong supporter of, and infrequent contributor to, the MAME project. Certainly not a naysayer. TOSEC too I think has it's heart in the right place. As I said, it's the people volunteering to help who aren't really helping so much as making things worse that are the problem. Maybe a little more QA of new dat files wouldn't go amiss. It is also possible for mammoth collaborative tasks that are volunteer-driven and quite awesome to make mistakes, and we shouldn't be afraid to say so, even if they are free.

 

I personally would not allow any dat files with titles labelled with [a][a1][h] etc. the TNC allows for a reason after the flag, I would never have allowed the flag with no reason. If you don't know why the title is an [a] or what was [h]'d in it, you aren't the person to be building the dat.

 

If you think what I am saying is hyperbole, you should visit some of the other communities I am a member of, there is a lot of similar opinion and a lot more hyperbolic language when tosec is mentioned in some of them. In those communities I tend to come out in support of tosec, they are after all trying to do the right thing. I just don't think they are doing it well. 

 

Yep I'll just leave it at this, note that you completely ignored any of the actual examples I gave while dismissing me as merely hyperbolic and move on. 

 

Let's get back to discussing C64 games in our Atari forum. I don't want us to be too far off topic.

 

 

 

 

 

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On 8/11/2021 at 9:19 AM, adam1977 said:

i've just picked up a C64c locally quite cheap

You might be interested by the "Kung Fu Flash cartridge". It's quite handy to store .PRG (== .EXE, .XEX) or .D64 (== .ATR) or .CRT (== .ROM, .BIN).

 

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10 minutes ago, ldelsarte said:

You might be interested by the "Kung Fu Flash cartridge". It's quite handy to store .PRG (== .EXE, .XEX) or .D64 (== .ATR) or .CRT (== .ROM, .BIN).

 

Funnily enough I bought one a few days back, seems really good and quick at loading too ?

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18 minutes ago, adam1977 said:

Funnily enough I bought one a few days back, seems really good and quick at loading too ?

The 1541 UII+ is more expensive, but in terms of features the 1541 UII+ and Kung Fu Flash aren't even in the same ballpark - The 1541 UII+ absolutely smashes the Kung Fu Flash. Featuring an up to 16MB REU (technically two 16MB REU's), as well as a 1541, as well as a 1571, as well as 1581 with the ROM's/kernel's of your choosing. You also get the benefits of a BackBit cart and an EasyFlash cart, and dual SID's of both revisions up to eight channels per SID, as well as seven channel Amiga Paula audio (fully programmable) for MOD file playback, as well as networking/modem emulation and tape emulation support....

 

....The list goes on.

 

It's literally the C64 must have device. If you were to purchase all these devices on their own, even if you could find them, you'd be up for far more than just the cost of a 1541 UII+.

 

However, congrats on the purchase!

Edited by Mazzspeed
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24 minutes ago, Mazzspeed said:

The 1541 UII+ is more expensive, [..] It's literally the C64 must have device.

Funny anecdote: I have been a C64 user for 35 years and never felt the need to invest in the 1541 Ultimate series!

 

Also you are comparing apples and oranges here. Someone suggests a reasonably affordable item that does a lot of the job the average user would need, and you match it with a top of the line product that is much more expensive than what most people would be willing to spend. In particular here where the demographic is Atari people who just recently acquired a cheap C64 for kicks and for laughs and probably didn't plan to expand it to become power C64 users. Heck, some of those people might not even have invested in the top of the line Atari peripherals to begin with.

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19 minutes ago, carlsson said:

Also you are comparing apples and oranges here. Someone suggests a reasonably affordable item that does a lot of the job the average user would need, and you match it with a top of the line product that is much more expensive than what most people would be willing to spend.

I own an A8 as well as a C64, and I spent money buying everything needed to get the full experience of an A8 with modern upgrades: U1MB, SIDE3, 64k Lotharek upgrade, Sophia 2, SIO2PC adapter and a Pi400 running FujiNet-PC as well as RespeQt. I knew that going cheap wouldn't give me the full experience I was after. Furthermore, all those parts cost more than my 1541 UII+.

 

However, you missed my point, and somewhat manipulated context:

 

Quote

It's literally the C64 must have device. If you were to purchase all these devices on their own, even if you could find them, you'd be up for far more than just the cost of a 1541 UII+.

Bearing in mind that I totally understand the end decision is up to the OP, I'm just advising on ways to spend money effectively, as buying a cheaper device only to be disappointed and then buying a 1541 UII+ isn't money well spent and a Kung Fu Flash isn't cycle accurate and doesn't emulate the 6502 as fitted to Commodore drives, as a result a number of titles won't work.

 

If you haven't purchased a 1541 UII+ you're missing out, coming from a Commodore user of 35 years. The versatility is incredible. My 1541's just for show now, I haven't powered it up in about 18 months.

Edited by Mazzspeed
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No, I didn't manipulate. I concatenated to get my point through. I'm sure the 1541 UII+ is a very powerful device for those who can afford it and have the use of it, but it isn't to say that all other products will fail to meet your needs and eventually disappoint you. I am happy to use my uIEC/SD with Action Replay Mk 6 and if I need to, format a physical floppy disk to use in my 1541-II. For a round of quick gaming, a regular EasyFlash is also good enough for me. I know quite well which features the 1541 UII+ offers, but that isn't to say that I ever felt I lack one.

 

YMMV and apparently it does since you belong to the category buying any and every upgrade and peripheral you can get. For the new users, I'm sure that a Kung Fu cartridge, perhaps a Pi1541 or even a Backbit cartridge might fully satisfy their needs. Not all three devices, mind you. Also if they later would need to upgrade, they could sell the old gear to someone with lower demands, to save a little money.

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55 minutes ago, carlsson said:

No, I didn't manipulate.

This is how you quoted me:

Quote

The 1541 UII+ is more expensive, [..] It's literally the C64 must have device.

I'm not interested in arguing, but there's little doubt that you quoted me out of context - There's a whole important section of what I said missing.

 

55 minutes ago, carlsson said:

but it isn't to say that all other products will fail to meet your needs and eventually disappoint you. I am happy to use my uIEC/SD with Action Replay Mk 6 and if I need to, format a physical floppy disk to use in my 1541-II. For a round of quick gaming, a regular EasyFlash is also good enough for me. I know quite well which features the 1541 UII+ offers, but that isn't to say that I ever felt I lack one.

And that's all good....If you have a 1541. The person I'm replying to hasn't mentioned if he has a drive or not - Furthermore, he may be in NTSC land where an REU is fast becoming necessary. An SD2IEC is not a replacement for the 1541, this is an annoying misconception. The SD2IEC EDIT: (uIEC/SD is the same device running the same firmware) is a replacement for the CMD HD-40, it even supports all the same JiffyDOS commands and partitioning extensions - And the CMD HD-40 was not in any way fully compatible with all C64 titles.

 

So as part of friendly discussion, quite possibly you never felt the need for a 1541 UII+ as you've never owned one? You think an AR5 (which is what the AR6 is) is fast, run an AR5 with JiffyDOS enabled - That's fast.

 

I mean, at the end of the day, if you want to go cheap you'd be better off with one of those C64 Mini/Maxi's. But anyway, we're getting too far off topic.

Edited by Mazzspeed
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I'll put it from my angle, I don't have a 1541 these days nor any of the other real world drives, I simply don't have the space and the price that they go for and the real chance of a destroy delivered 1541 is likely because of their weight. So I went through the various carts (the Kung fu wasn't out then) and purchased a SD2C64 with very mixed results due to the tech nature of the way the C64 can be programmed to load stuff in. Rather than keep buying devices with varying improvements, I went for the Ultimate+ because it clearly offered excellent drive emulation and tape loading plus a list of enhanced features that made it a must, the negative was the price in my situation, but I was offered a 'reconditioned' one at a small discount which was so kind.

 

After that I saw the Kung Fu, but again it suffers from some D64 issues, it's a great cart, but I don't have spare cash to just buy the lot, I purely want a cart that does something unique to others.

 

Quite how any of this links to good titles eludes me, but I put it down to us all trying to help the person get a good result.

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5 minutes ago, Mclaneinc said:

 

I'll put it from my angle, I don't have a 1541 these days nor any of the other real world drives, I simply don't have the space and the price that they go for and the real chance of a destroy delivered 1541 is likely because of their weight. So I went through the various carts (the Kung fu wasn't out then) and purchased a SD2C64 with very mixed results due to the tech nature of the way the C64 can be programmed to load stuff in. Rather than keep buying devices with varying improvements, I went for the Ultimate+ because it clearly offered excellent drive emulation and tape loading plus a list of enhanced features that made it a must, the negative was the price in my situation, but I was offered a 'reconditioned' one at a small discount which was so kind.

 

After that I saw the Kung Fu, but again it suffers from some D64 issues, it's a great cart, but I don't have spare cash to just buy the lot, I purely want a cart that does something unique to others.

 

Quite how any of this links to good titles eludes me, but I put it down to us all trying to help the person get a good result.

Considering the latest firmware update regarding the 1541 UII+, the ability to load D64, D71, D81 and all CRT/TAP images including Gmod2 512k carts with the save feature - For the outlay the 1541 UII+ is hard to beat. Furthermore, it comes with the JiffyDOS kernel / drive Rom's for the C64 / 1541 as standard.

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Not wanting to throw fuel in the flames here, I don't have anything like enough experience with real C64 hardware, but there seem to be some experts here so I'll ask. 

 

Is the situation with C64 software the same as with Atari? The UII+ can emulate 1541, 1571, 1581 drives etc., is there any software that needs a specific drive? If that software exists is there a patched version that works with any drive?

 

We have the situation in Atariland where some titles will only work with OS-a, some need OS-b, some need a specific version of BASIC enabled, some need accurate drive timing etc., but in every case there is another version which has been fixed to just work. We all love to argue over SIDE3 vs AVGCART, vs Ultimate Cart, vs Fujinet but at the end of the day there is a version of every piece of software that can run from anything. Our limitation is the amount of RAM required but apart from that, every title will work with every device if you find the right fixed version.

 

 

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The 1571 was mainly intended for C128 though it can be forced into double sided mode on the C64 as well. That would be non-standard, and while there may be software distributed or relying on a drive that has double sided capacity, I can't imagine it being common. The 1581 is 3.5" with even higher capacity as you know. Some software, in particular demos and other user contributed programs may require a such drive to run but then we no longer are speaking about D64 but D71 and D81 formats respectively.

 

The C64 had very minor Kernel upgrades through its lifetime, so there were no significant OS changes unlike e.g. the Commodore PET series where you have all sorts of combinations of Kernel, Editor, BASIC, keyboard type, number of columns, screen size, type of graphics chip. Some programs may be optimized for a 6581 SID or a 8580 SID, some demos and games require a VSP safe VIC-II. I know that the Ultimate-II+ can emulate a SID chip for e.g. stereo SID or perhaps bypass the internal, real one if it would not match with the software?

Edited by carlsson
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The 1581 basically only mimics the DOS level of the disks, any other conditions make it not compatible with any other software (bar DOS level), because of their enhanced levels (1571 & 81) there is some software that deliberately uses them (can't think of names, possibly Metal Dust, a shooter) but I'd be surprised if there are any titles that were not reduced to 1541 level (but I could be wrong).

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4 hours ago, Mazzspeed said:

The 1541 UII+ is more expensive, but in terms of features the 1541 UII+ and Kung Fu Flash aren't even in the same ballpark

You have to forgive me: I'm a total newbie when it comes to C64 & C128 ;-)

I found this "Kung Fu Flash" for a reasonable price, and I thought it would be really convenient for a debutant, to explore a few games. It does the job for me.

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Solutions like UII are great but they are for hardcore c64 users. If you just want to play some games, the cheaper cartridges are ok. One flaw though is that their compatibility with disk images is rather limited (I've heard KFF's is ~40%). So perhaps not all games from this thread will work.

 

When I was buying my C64 2 years ago I went for one bundled with SD2IEC. If I was doing it today, I'd get Pi1541 instead. I think it has the best compatibility-to-price ratio.

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Got two more (if not already mentioned):

 

- "Monty on the Run" und "Auf Wiedersehen Monty" (which is part 2 of it): Two good platform games from the ZX Spectrum-scene, I believe, which had decent conversions to the C64. Strange, that the conversion here worked well, while the conversion of the similar Spectrum classics "Manic Miner" and "Jet Set Willy" failed miserably.

 

- "The Oregon Trail": A classic strategy game, ported from the Apple II (on which it was quite famous).

Edited by Pokeypy
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It appears many people manage to obtain D64 images of original games with custom loaders. Personally, about 90% of the stuff I find online are cracked, single filed games. Some may load multiple parts indeed and thus may implement custom loaders which is where the more inexpensive options fail because those don't have computational power to emulate an entire disk drive, only simulate its behavior. If you enjoy scene demos, I agree that you probably need the more expensive options because those demos almost all the time have custom fastloaders where not two groups use the same routines. Out of the games I've downloaded and played on my uIEC/SD (which is a SD2IEC type device) in the past 10++ years, perhaps a handful have not been single filed enough to work.

 

Sure, if you want the absolute most hassle free experience and make sure that ANYTHING you will ever find online will load and run, you know what to get. Open your wallet. If you can live with being able to play 40-80% of the software (percentages may vary depending on own knowledge how to operate the computer), you can get away with a cheaper option to begin with.

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45 minutes ago, ldelsarte said:

You have to forgive me: I'm a total newbie when it comes to C64 & C128 ;-)

I found this "Kung Fu Flash" for a reasonable price, and I thought it would be really convenient for a debutant, to explore a few games. It does the job for me.

There's nothing wrong with the Kung Fu flash, it does what it says it can do and the firmware is constantly being updated but all these other carts have one issue and its the same as the AVG, the AVG get's it's compatibility by using the SIO port, the Ultimate++ uses the drive port and the tape port. Sadly the Kung fu does not but it's a hell of a lot cheaper.

 

In some respects, it's a case of getting what you pay for, the Kung Fu works very well and for the price is an excellent cart but if you want a much higher level of compatibility and more variations on usage then the U2++ cannot be beaten (yet). It's like a car, most folks are happy with a car just to go back and forth and gets them to their destination, some want one that's super fast which is nice but not so important but others want safer road handling, more efficient petrol / fuel, better parts etc..

 

Nothing wrong with a budget car but if you pay more you normally get more but the budget car will do most of the tasks very well...Nothing wrong with that.

Edited by Mclaneinc
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6 hours ago, Mazzspeed said:

The 1541 UII+ is more expensive, but in terms of features the 1541 UII+ and Kung Fu Flash aren't even in the same ballpark - The 1541 UII+ absolutely smashes the Kung Fu Flash. Featuring an up to 16MB REU (technically two 16MB REU's), as well as a 1541, as well as a 1571, as well as 1581 with the ROM's/kernel's of your choosing. You also get the benefits of a BackBit cart and an EasyFlash cart, and dual SID's of both revisions up to eight channels per SID, as well as seven channel Amiga Paula audio (fully programmable) for MOD file playback, as well as networking/modem emulation and tape emulation support....

 

....The list goes on.

 

It's literally the C64 must have device. If you were to purchase all these devices on their own, even if you could find them, you'd be up for far more than just the cost of a 1541 UII+.

 

However, congrats on the purchase!

Thanks a lot buddy, might have a look into getting a 1541 UII+ too at some point ?

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If you can afford it, and if you can wait for one, the 1541 Ultimate II will probably do everything you need a C64 device to do and then some. 

 

Since acquiring one, all my other c64 solutions for loading stuff without an actual disk drive have sat unused.

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10 hours ago, Mclaneinc said:

The 1581 basically only mimics the DOS level of the disks, any other conditions make it not compatible with any other software (bar DOS level), because of their enhanced levels (1571 & 81) there is some software that deliberately uses them (can't think of names, possibly Metal Dust, a shooter) but I'd be surprised if there are any titles that were not reduced to 1541 level (but I could be wrong).

The real 1581 isn't cycle accurate with a 1541, this is true. However the 1581 is also faster and holds far more capacity than a 1541, even on a C64. The emulated 1581 on the UII+ is identical to the real 1581 and running JiffyDOS is as fast as the SD2IEC running JiffyDOS, so you get almost 8000 bytes per second data transfer speed with huge capacity compared to a 1541. The ability to mount and load not only .D64 images, but also .D71 and .D81 images is very handy.

 

Talking in general, as advice for anyone looking to get the best experience out of a C64. The 1541 UII+ isn't any aimed specifically at hardcore users any more than the U1MB/SIDE3 combo or Incognito is, as stated it's almost a must have for it's multiple format handling and REU alone. You can go cheap, and most likely be disappointed, or you can do it right from the onset and have an amazing experience. As stated, an SD2IEC, Pi1541, JiffyDOS kernel/ROM's and flash cart will most likely set you back as much or more than a UII+ alone depending on region and transfer rates, etc - And the UII+ comes with JiffyDOS pre installed for the 1541 and covers everything the previously mentioned devices do and much, much more. I run only the emulated SID's on the 1541 UII+ and experience no issues running dual 3 channel SID's of either variety (as there were two differing SID's released for the C64).

 

Cycle accuracy and correct drive 6502 emulation is very important when it comes to the C64, flash carts and the SD2IEC are not cycle accurate devices, they do not emulate the 6502 at all. Therefore many titles will not work unless patched to work, which is limiting - I know it's limiting as I've experienced it personally. For example, almost all latest released demo's use their own fastloader routines and will generally struggle on an SD2IEC device - In fact, if the SD2IEC device is present and not at the end of the IEC chain when running such demo's off a cycle accurate device, the SD2IEC will need to be disabled before the demo will even boot and run correctly.

 

EDIT: Here is a list of .D71/.D81 images for the C64 of CSDB. Such games are usually also available as .D64 images, but due to the limited capacity of a .D64 you will have to keep 'flipping' or 'swapping' disks.

 

https://snapshot.raintank.io/dashboard/snapshot/8rgBYa9O1zG9hjrvk9Hx7PX4ax3LOh9B?orgId=2

Edited by Mazzspeed
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9 hours ago, ldelsarte said:

You have to forgive me: I'm a total newbie when it comes to C64 & C128 ;-)

I found this "Kung Fu Flash" for a reasonable price, and I thought it would be really convenient for a debutant, to explore a few games. It does the job for me.

It will be a great entry level device, just don't expect it to run everything flawlessly.

 

The reason I highlight this, is because I've read users posting that the C64 is unreliable regarding certain titles and is therefore a poorly designed machine. This is not the case, the only reason such users are having problems is because they were ill advised and bought the wrong peripherals from the onset. The 1541 UII+ is one device that does absolutely everything, and you don't even need to open the machine to get the best out of your system using it.

 

When I wanted to get into the A8, I came here asking for advice and got advice from some very respectable individuals that really knew what they were talking about, as a result my A8 experience has been outstanding. I am passing my experience onto you in the hope your C64 experience will be the same. Whether you take my advice is entirely up to you.

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On 8/13/2021 at 12:28 AM, Mazzspeed said:

I am passing my experience onto you in the hope your C64 experience will be the same. Whether you take my advice is entirely up to you.

And I am sincerely grateful for all the nice and friendly responses I have read here. I have discovered games that I didn't know at all. Having a .7z file with thousands of games is nice, but it's useless if nobody tells you what to try first.

I'm not a C64 expert, so any expertise and recommendations shared are much appreciated.

Thanks to all.

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31 minutes ago, ldelsarte said:

And I am sincerely grateful for all the nice and friendly responses I have read here. I have discovered games that I didn't know at all. Having a .7z file with thousands of games is nice, but it's useless if nobody tells you what to try first.

I'm not a C64 expert, so any expertise and recommendations shared are much appreciated.

Thanks to all.

My friend, thank you so much for your comments. 

 

I am so sorry for the comments from some in the community. If you want any assistance, probably better to PM me.

Edited by Mazzspeed
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