Atari 130XE keyboard rebuild: vintage keycaps on modern switches

[ScreamingAtTheRadio]

15 minutes ago, scorpio_ny said:

1. Stabilizers: Would the adapter for the stabilizer accommodate all the different switch types and different stabilizer standards?

2. Diodes: This would be welcome though it may mean extra work for those who do not want this option.

3.  Pi Pico footprint to an optional daughter board: Personally, I will probably only use the keyboard with my Atari.

4. Alternative layouts: This is great and I am all for it, but would you also be able to accommodate the stabilizers for different spacebars too?

7. Flexible Circuit Board: For myself, this would be a welcome addition since it would simplify the connection to the stock Atari PCB. My only concern is the sourcing of the part. With all the shortages happening, it should be a a readily available part.

8. New cap sets: This would amazing since one could use a standard keycap set or have one commissioned that uses the standard sized keys (i.e spacebar)

10.Backlighting: I have not looked closely at the Choc set, but would this be with through the hole LED's or SMD components?

1. Stabilizers exist for both low-profile and regular height switches with a common footprint. The adapters have more to do with the key cap shape, but I'll make sure what I build is compatible with both low profile and MX, and with all the known XE key cap shapes. I'll standardize on PCB screw-in stabilizers, specifically Durock v2, but that should work for other brands as well. I'll drop the Costar holes.

2. Unfortunately, diodes are mounted in series with the switches, so the best I can do (I think) is make it easy to short the footprint if you don't want them. I could in theory have an alternate footprint in the PCB design that would enable me to easily generate fabrication files without them. Making a note of that.

4. Yes.

7. Not all fab houses do FPC, but enough do, and they're not too expensive. PCBWay does them (JLC doesn't unfortunately).

8. New cap sets use standard size space bars, fit in the existing case, and fill up the space around the smaller space bar with additional keys (configurable).

10. The Choc set was using through-hole, but my intention is to make a footprint that works for both. SMD LEDs are not too hard to solder and are cheaper and easier to source.

Edited October 26, 2022 by ScreamingAtTheRadio

[+scorpio_ny]

1 hour ago, ScreamingAtTheRadio said:

2. Unfortunately, diodes are mounted in series with the switches, so the best I can do (I think) is make it easy to short the footprint if you don't want them. I could in theory have an alternate footprint in the PCB design that would enable me to easily generate fabrication files without them. Making a note of that.

 

I actually want the extra diodes and do not mind the extra work. Does the ChocXE PCB have this already or will this be the first board that supports it?

[ScreamingAtTheRadio]

29 minutes ago, scorpio_ny said:

Does the ChocXE PCB have this already or will this be the first board that supports it?

It will be the first. 

[JohnBlbec]

nice project! I'd buy it immediately 😊

[XL Freak]

On 10/25/2022 at 7:58 PM, ScreamingAtTheRadio said:

As I'm working on the next revision of my keyboards, I could use some feedback about the changes I'm considering.

1. Stabilizers: I'm very unhappy about the current Costar stabilizer solution. I'm considering printing parts that mount under the key cap and play the role of an adapter for much more stable PCB-screwed Durock v2 stabilizers.
2. Diodes on each switch (except Fn keys) to avoid ghosting on multiple key presses. They will be surface-mount and I'll make sure you can easily short the footprint with a drop of solder if you don't want the diodes.
3. Moving the Pi Pico footprint to an optional daughter board as using the keyboard on a PC is an optional scenario that only makes routing more complex. Note that daughter board would work with any XE keyboard, even entirely vintage.
4. Alternative layouts for custom key cap sets such as Gianluca's project, with jumper settings for configuring the roles of additional keys such as keys around a smaller space bar.
5. Support for multiple switch footprints (Choc, MX, Gateron, Red Dragon) to unify the ChocXE and 130MX PCBs.
6. Additional adapter 3D models for Gateron and Red Dragon low-profile budget switches.
7. Flexible Circuit Board to replace FCC to connect the keyboards to the Atari motherboard without an adapter (FCB plugs directly into the stock Atari 24 pin connector).
8. New cap sets support (see multiple layouts above) in addition to vintage cap support: collaborations with other users, more on that when details become available.
9. 3D models for MX footprint function keys.
10. Backlighting circuit: this is already on ChocXE, but would be available for all on the new unified board.

What do you think about those? What did I miss? Is there anything you dislike about the current design?

1. I haven't built one yet, but I'm thinking I'd lean toward the Duroc V2, especially for alternate layouts.

2. Diodes are one of the best ideas yet. The only thing that'd make them better would be if they were mounted at the fabricator, which can be done easily and cheaply. That's my vote for sure!

3. Until someone shows me a good reason to use one, i probably wouldn't ever use it.

4. I'm all for alternate layouts. I love my Atari's, but the RETURN key *IS* in the wrong place, and should be dropped down one row and the CAPS key moved. and the spacebar is 9U instead of the industry standard 6.25U as you mentioned above, so and if you're hoping for alternate layouts, as am i, you will hit a brick wall if you're trying to do your own cap sets at wasdkeyboards.com.

5. HORRAY!!! i think it'd be a great idea to have 5 hole mx support instead of just 3 hole. ***and... hot swap switch sockets please. mounted at the fabricator pretty please 😁😁😁

6. yes, if it's not too time intensive.

7. fcb is also one of the best ideas.

8. new caps sets. already working on it lol

9. 3rd best idea in this list!!!

10. backlighting would be nice, but not at the cost of anything else.

 

thank you!!!

Edited November 20, 2022 by XL Freak

[XL Freak]

*** 5 FREE KEYBOARD PCB'S ***

 

EVERYONE: I thought I was ordering something else from jlcpcb, and ended up ordering a few stock keyboard pcb's from this thread. oops lol. since i'm waiting for the next revision, i'll be giving these away for the cost of shipping only. these pcb's are stock 130xe keyboard layout. each of the 5 sets I have left will come with one black 1.6mm keyboard pcb, one green .6mm IDE connector pcb and one green .6mm FFC connector pcb, so you can choose which you want. you will need to order your own IDE or FFC connector and the appropriate ribbon cable. order from mouser.com or digikey.com. see below...

you'll also need your own switches (kbdfans has kailh crystal pinks on sale through aliexpress.com $2.50 for a pack of 10), and if you choose custom keycaps, i got mine at wasdkeyboards.com using a custom svg template file. pm me if you need help. and of course, assembly is up to you. each pcb set costs about $12 when ordering 5 at a time. a shipping quote on ups.com to the farthest us city from me is $16.95, but i'm sure the local game shop (who can 3d print stems and adapters once the 3d files are created) can probably ship for $10 or less using their ShipStation. I'll update tomorrow. one pcb set per atarian please. pls pm me if you'd like one. 

Edited November 20, 2022 by XL Freak

[XL Freak]

1. the extra pcb's i had are all gone. if you end up needing one of those, you can get a minimum order of 5 from jlcpcb very inexpensively. just don't forget to order either ide or ffc connectors with the order.

2. the kailh crystal pink switches are no longer for sale at kbdfans or aliexpress. sorry for the broken link above. i can't fix it in that message.

[ScreamingAtTheRadio]

Progress report. I just got prototype PCBs from JLCPCB to test my new switch footprint that can accept 4 different kinds of switches (MX, Kailh Choc, Gateron low-profile and RedDragon low-profile) with support for through-hole and surface-mounted LEDs. It all fit perfectly on the first try

 

To give you an idea of how f@#$%!-up that range of switches is, check out what they look from under:

They have nothing in common beyond being square. I hate it so much. But there you go. It works.

 

But, I hear you ask, what is this good-looking PCB if it's not a full XE keyboard? Well, glad you asked. It's the protype for a joypad made of keyboard switches, and from my initial testing it looks and feels amazing:

It even has its own tiny aluminum plate, it's so cute!

[reifsnyderb]

Nice work!  I completely understand the frustration with footprints.  One good thing is that at least the switch footprints don't have overlaps that would result in electrical shorts.  I once tried to make more of a universal DIN connector footprint and found it impossible.

[ScreamingAtTheRadio]

Yes, there are some lucky coincidences. I was able to group the pins in two groups that don't overlap, and that wasn't easy. Also, the only shapes you can use are circles and ovals, so that's also a nice constraint  It even is all green in KiCad validation

Edited December 9, 2022 by ScreamingAtTheRadio

[ScreamingAtTheRadio]

And here's another progress report. This one is mostly @XL Freak's work getting sample caps, I only provided feedback and some of the glyphs. Those are new MX keycaps with an alternate layout that will fit into a regular XE case. It's not the final layout, but should give you an idea what to expect:

[+scorpio_ny]

These look great! Are these keys sculpted and sized in a standard MX profile (Cherry, OEM, XDA)?

[XL Freak]

Just now, scorpio_ny said:

These look great! Are these keys sculpted and sized in a standard MX profile (Cherry, OEM, XDA)?

thx! those are oem profile from wasd keyboards. I also did a set in an 8-bit'ish font. I like it a lot

[ScreamingAtTheRadio]

They are standard OEM MX key caps.

[_The Doctor__]

custom shot lettering or?

[XL Freak]

1 minute ago, _The Doctor__ said:

custom shot lettering or?

no, dye sublimated on abs caps. only $62+s/h per set

[XL Freak]

if anyone is interested in getting their caps from wasd, they must be custom designed in a special svg template file. the file I built has both fonts, control graphics on the lower left and lower right or not at all, inverse lettering on control, tab clr and arrow legends, and comes with square or round arrows, and a few game characters including the red pacman ghost as a sub for the esc key. I will also make minor alterations at no cost. I can pm the file to whoever wants to order a set. I just need to know which font, round or square arrows, and placement of graphics. the set will come with all the game characters

[_The Doctor__]

Any extras could be the keypad layout. 4 blanks  numbers  .  -  +enter

 

[XL Freak]

10 minutes ago, _The Doctor__ said:

Any extras could be the keypad layout. 4 blanks  numbers  .  -  +enter

 

I had been ordering as an 87 key set. it could be ordered as a 104 key set for $65, and all those extra keys be used for anything, but if this is done, any extra keys should be printed on the same row as they're intended to be used on, or they wont look quute right. as I painfully found out lol

[_The Doctor__]

sounds about right, hmmm judicious planning using extra keys for each run adding up to an extra complete set?

always trying for an angle.

Edited December 10, 2022 by _The Doctor__

[XL Freak]

everyone, i'm sorry, i jumped the gun. the svg file is dependent somewhat upon the actual layout of the keys on the keyboard. the layout that was presented in the pics that @ScreamingAtTheRadio and i shared isn't the final layout. it may be a valid layout some time in the future, but for now there's a layout we both like better. again, i'm sorry. please allow this project to develop and mature a little more and i will be happy to share the file with everyone. if you'd like to see what i have so far, pls pm me and i'll send it your way.

 

edit: ps... the file is viewed and edited with a program called inkscape

Edited December 10, 2022 by XL Freak

[_The Doctor__]

No need for apologizing, sounds like people like what they see, and the keys of course would be grouped to whatever machine and keyboard scheme each ends up being. Happy times indeed

[+scorpio_ny]

1 hour ago, XL Freak said:

everyone, i'm sorry, i jumped the gun. the svg file is dependent somewhat upon the actual layout of the keys on the keyboard. the layout that was presented in the pics that @ScreamingAtTheRadio and i shared isn't the final layout. it may be a valid layout some time in the future, but for now there's a layout we both like better. again, i'm sorry. please allow this project to develop and mature a little more and i will be happy to share the file with everyone. if you'd like to see what i have so far, pls pm me and i'll send it your way.

 

edit: ps... the file is viewed and edited with a program called inkscape

Thanks again for your time and effort! Appreciate showing us what can be done. I have a couple of questions:

1. What kind of stabs does this set of keycaps require?

2. What size is the spacebar?

[XL Freak]

7 minutes ago, scorpio_ny said:

Thanks again for your time and effort! Appreciate showing us what can be done. I have a couple of questions:

1. What kind of stabs does this set of keycaps require?

2. What size is the spacebar?

thank you.

1- I was going to use the durock v2 pcb mount since originally there was going to be no plate. but the fat lady hasn't sung yet, and there are little birds whispering rumors on the wind 😉, so at this point im not sure...

2- wasd only allows for the standard 6.25U spacebar. since the 130 spacebar is 9U, there needs to be two 1.5U keys, one on each side of the spacebar, with a little extra space in-between.

[Matej]

On 12/9/2022 at 8:05 PM, ScreamingAtTheRadio said:

Progress report. I just got prototype PCBs from JLCPCB to test my new switch footprint that can accept 4 different kinds of switches (MX, Kailh Choc, Gateron low-profile and RedDragon low-profile) with support for through-hole and surface-mounted LEDs. It all fit perfectly on the first try

 

To give you an idea of how f@#$%!-up that range of switches is, check out what they look from under:

They have nothing in common beyond being square. I hate it so much. But there you go. It works.

 

But, I hear you ask, what is this good-looking PCB if it's not a full XE keyboard? Well, glad you asked. It's the protype for a joypad made of keyboard switches, and from my initial testing it looks and feels amazing:

It even has its own tiny aluminum plate, it's so cute!

This looks beautiful any chance to get 2x fully assembled (I have joystick cable)?