Colecovision controller issues questions

[Dopy25]

I just picked up a colecovision today and it came with a rollerball controller. First of all, that controller is weird. It plugs into both controller ports AND the power supply, or it doesn't work.

 

My first issue, is that neither of my controllers work unless plugged in through the rollerball. Does anyone know what that's about, or have a theory? I read a few posts about controllers and found the common issue is a cut ground trace in the controller. Well if the controller works through the roller ball, I gotta figure it can't be a cut ground inside of it. The other thing has to do with an IC being bad inside the console but the signs for that are a ghost movement in game. Without the roller ball as a middle, I can't even get the keypad to respond. I do see that the roller ball has a few ICs on it but figured that's for the roller ball, not the pass through. It would be weird to have 2 controller ICs in series, and if the roller ball has it's own, and the console has it's own.. I'm just not sure how that would work.

 

My second issue is more of a question. The console came with a little adapter that appears to be an accessory for the Adam. I'll include a picture. Is this strictly for the Adam? Not sure I'll ever actually get one of those so I'm not sure what to do with this. I'm assuming someone could use it but I can't find info on it since I have no idea what to search. 

 

Console seems to work like champ other than the controllers needing to pass through the roller ball.

 

The roller ball also has a crack in one of the gears and I think it might cause an issue in game. In slither, the controller only moves forward. Not back at all. Or is that part of the game? 

 

Are there any good svideo options for the colecovision? Or any better? All I found was a composite, which I'm sure I'll do but was wondering about better output if possible.

 

Oh, also I think it's missing a front console label. Is there anywhere to get a replacement? I'll add console images tomorrow.

 

Thanks for any advice or info.

 

Edit:

Found the adapter for sale on eBay. It looks $15-20 but I still don't know what it's for. The listings aren't very descriptive.

Edited October 3, 2021 by Dopy25

[ChildOfCv]

Yeah the roller controller needs both inputs and the power connected in order to work.  It is not a simple passthrough for the other controllers since it has to mix its roller outputs with the controller outputs.  So it has active outputs, while the controllers themselves are only passive.  That may begin the explain why the console works with the roller controller but not alone.

 

With the controllers unplugged, the top row of 5 pins should measure 2.5V for the first 4 pins, and pin 5 will toggle on and off at 5V.  In the bottom row of 4 pins, pins 6 and 7 should be 2.5V.  Pin 8 should toggle on and off from 5V.  Pin 9 will be open.  You can measure with the black probe on the shielding inside of the expansion port, but don't short it to any of the traces there.

 

Just a gut feeling, but it's possible that your 74LS00 in the Colecovision (U24) is weak.  The system may have had a pin shorted by a curious kid or unfortunate accident.

[+-^CrossBow^-]

13 hours ago, Dopy25 said:

Are there any good svideo options for the colecovision? Or any better? All I found was a composite, which I'm sure I'll do but was wondering about better output if possible.

To answer this question yes...

 

There is the new RGB board still available from Crayon King's ebay accounts. The board by itself can provide RGB or Component YUV output. If you also purchase the additional expansion board for it, then you can get a new composite and s-video output in addition to the RGB at the expense of the YUV output.

 

[Dopy25]

1 hour ago, -^CrossBow^- said:

To answer this question yes...

 

There is the new RGB board still available from Crayon King's ebay accounts. The board by itself can provide RGB or Component YUV output. If you also purchase the additional expansion board for it, then you can get a new composite and s-video output in addition to the RGB at the expense of the YUV output.

 

Oh sweet. I'll check it out. I saw those posts (or maybe different one?) I thought it was only for intellivision. 

[Dopy25]

2 hours ago, ChildOfCv said:

Yeah the roller controller needs both inputs and the power connected in order to work.  It is not a simple passthrough for the other controllers since it has to mix its roller outputs with the controller outputs.  So it has active outputs, while the controllers themselves are only passive.  That may begin the explain why the console works with the roller controller but not alone.

 

With the controllers unplugged, the top row of 5 pins should measure 2.5V for the first 4 pins, and pin 5 will toggle on and off at 5V.  In the bottom row of 4 pins, pins 6 and 7 should be 2.5V.  Pin 8 should toggle on and off from 5V.  Pin 9 will be open.  You can measure with the black probe on the shielding inside of the expansion port, but don't short it to any of the traces there.

 

Just a gut feeling, but it's possible that your 74LS00 in the Colecovision (U24) is weak.  The system may have had a pin shorted by a curious kid or unfortunate accident.

Ok great. I'll check on the output and post back here.

 

Would this be a good replacement?

 

https://console5.com/store/7400-74ls00n-sn74ls00n-quadruple-2-input-positive-nand-gates.html

 

That's the part I remember reading about going bad often but the only signs I read were ghost movement. I suppose of it's bad enough it could cause no movement, but would the roller ball still work? Seems odd.

[Dopy25]

Past the time to edit my post.

 

@ChildOfCv 

 

I used a 9 pin extension cable and a Dupont wire on each pin with the ground probe clamped to the shield by the expansion Port. 

 

Pins 1-4 read between 2.2 and 2.3 (fluctuate on my meter).

 

Pin 5 is 2.8 - 2.9.

 

Pins 6&7 read 2.2 - 2.3

 

Pin 9 reads 1.5 - 1.6.

 

Obviously these don't match what you say is accurate. Does that mean the 74LS00 is in fact bad? 

 

Looks like I'm going to make a console5 order. Would the one I linked be an accurate replacement?

Edited October 3, 2021 by Dopy25

[+-^CrossBow^-]

4 hours ago, Dopy25 said:

Oh sweet. I'll check it out. I saw those posts (or maybe different one?) I thought it was only for intellivision. 

Crap..you're correct. For some reason I thought you were talking about the Intellivision. There is an RGB solution for the Colecovision as well. I've got a few of the RGB boards on hand but they can also be ordered from Video Game Perfection out of the UK as that is where I got my last order of boards from. But that would be RGB only and aside from that, there is the composite output as you stated before.

 

[Dopy25]

1 hour ago, -^CrossBow^- said:

Crap..you're correct. For some reason I thought you were talking about the Intellivision. There is an RGB solution for the Colecovision as well. I've got a few of the RGB boards on hand but they can also be ordered from Video Game Perfection out of the UK as that is where I got my last order of boards from. But that would be RGB only and aside from that, there is the composite output as you stated before.

 

Ah man. That cost is a bit more than I should spend right now. I'm already getting into too many consoles at once. Oh well. Composite will have to do for now.

 

Also read the thread on that mod and it seems it converts component to RGB. I've not understood the reason for everything going straight to RGB and not using component. I'm guessing it's because most CRTs don't use component and can be modded for RGB but I don't see myself ever doing that. I do have LCDs that have component input but don't support straight RGB. I can't even find valid converters from RGB to component. At this point I'm always looking for S-video options since I have nothing that supports straight RGB.

 

I saw you mention something about the Ben heck composite running too much heat though in another thread. Are there alternatives? Everything I've seen seems to be based on that. I suppose I could run some wires away from the RF unit. That might reduce some wear on the transistor.

[+-^CrossBow^-]

1 hour ago, Dopy25 said:

I saw you mention something about the Ben heck composite running too much heat though in another thread. Are there alternatives? Everything I've seen seems to be based on that. I suppose I could run some wires away from the RF unit. That might reduce some wear on the transistor.

The Ben Heck composite mod causes the transistor to get too hot and it literally burns out within a few months of use. The better kits are the ones based on the LM318 OP amp circuit. There are quite a few based on that one and it works far better in the long run. Retrofixes.com has a CV composite kit you can get that I've used quite a bit that works well. There is also this kit from Winzmod based on the same circuit as well.

 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/312816022264?hash=item48d549b2f8:g:hsAAAOSw2WJdsSFP

 

 

[ChildOfCv]

7 hours ago, Dopy25 said:

Past the time to edit my post.

 

@ChildOfCv 

 

I used a 9 pin extension cable and a Dupont wire on each pin with the ground probe clamped to the shield by the expansion Port. 

 

Pins 1-4 read between 2.2 and 2.3 (fluctuate on my meter).

 

Pin 5 is 2.8 - 2.9.

 

Pins 6&7 read 2.2 - 2.3

 

Pin 9 reads 1.5 - 1.6.

 

Obviously these don't match what you say is accurate. Does that mean the 74LS00 is in fact bad? 

 

Looks like I'm going to make a console5 order. Would the one I linked be an accurate replacement?

2.2-2.3 is close enough.  They were never going for absolute accuracy, they just used 2 resistors to divide the 5V power and then sent that to 7 of the 9 pins.

 

I didn't see a reading of pin 8 in the above.  Did you test it?

 

Anyway, both 5 and 8 toggle so quickly that you won't be able to see it.  Instead the meter will give you an average based on how much time each pin sits at 5V or 0V.  If you see either of them sitting at 0V or 5V once it reaches the option menu, then that one is dead.

Pins 5 and 8 are opposites.  One turns on the keypad, the other turns on the joystick.  Both output through pins 1-4.  So that explains why only one should be high at a time--it first goes to joystick mode to read the joystick, then to keypad mode to read the keypad.

[Dopy25]

2 minutes ago, ChildOfCv said:

2.2-2.3 is close enough.  They were never going for absolute accuracy, they just used 2 resistors to divide the 5V power and then sent that to 7 of the 9 pins.

 

I didn't see a reading of pin 8 in the above.  Did you test it?

 

Anyway, both 5 and 8 toggle so quickly that you won't be able to see it.  Instead the meter will give you an average based on how much time each pin sits at 5V or 0V.  If you see either of them sitting at 0V or 5V once it reaches the option menu, then that one is dead.

Pins 5 and 8 are opposites.  One turns on the keypad, the other turns on the joystick.  Both output through pins 1-4.  So that explains why only one should be high at a time--it first goes to joystick mode to read the joystick, then to keypad mode to read the keypad.

I misread your last post. I didn't think there would be any output on pin 8 as I thought it was ground. I'll test again tomorrow.

 

Do you or @-^CrossBow^- know if this will work? Is this one of those 318 amp circuits mentioned above?

 

 

I'd love to be able to make one for myself. Wondering if I should just use a perf board too since I only need one, not 3 (from the osh link). I have a ton of transistors and resistors around, just not that 318 amp. 

[Dopy25]

@ChildOfCv was just able to check. Oddly enough, it's reading negative. Is that normal? I mean my first thought was having the meter backwards but nope. Black ground wire on the RF shield, red positive probe on pin 8 gives  - .5v(fluctuates between .4 and .5, negative) before options screen and - .2 (between .1 and .2, negative) I even checked all the other pins again and they're the same as above. Only pin 8 is a negative reading, and is fractional compared to the other pins.

[ChildOfCv]

On 10/6/2021 at 1:39 PM, Dopy25 said:

@ChildOfCv was just able to check. Oddly enough, it's reading negative. Is that normal? I mean my first thought was having the meter backwards but nope. Black ground wire on the RF shield, red positive probe on pin 8 gives  - .5v(fluctuates between .4 and .5, negative) before options screen and - .2 (between .1 and .2, negative) I even checked all the other pins again and they're the same as above. Only pin 8 is a negative reading, and is fractional compared to the other pins.

That definitely means that the 74LS00 has a dead output.  There is a weak -5V pull-down, but it's on both pins 5 and 8.  So they should look about the same voltage-wise.  So U24 definitely looks to be a problem.

Of course there is also a potential issue with bad traces, but that is far less likely except at the DE9 socket itself, but in that case you should see no reading at all.

[Dopy25]

18 minutes ago, ChildOfCv said:

That definitely means that the 74LS00 has a dead output.  There is a weak -5V pull-down, but it's on both pins 5 and 8.  So they should look about the same voltage-wise.  So U24 definitely looks to be a problem.

Of course there is also a potential issue with bad traces, but that is far less likely except at the DE9 socket itself, but in that case you should see no reading at all.

Ok great. I will work on getting replacements. I notice you keep saying 74LS00 and I found a 74LS00n on console5 here

But the same site lists a 74LS541 as a replacement for the controller IC and is here.

 

Is there a difference for the purpose of the colecovision? Would I need 74LS541 or 74LS00 sourced from anywhere specific?

 

Thanks for all your help.

[ChildOfCv]

Just now, Dopy25 said:

Ok great. I will work on getting replacements. I notice you keep saying 74LS00 and I found a 74LS00n on console5 here

But the same site lists a 74LS541 as a replacement for the controller IC and is here.

 

Is there a difference for the purpose of the colecovision? Would I need 74LS541 or 74LS00 sourced from anywhere specific?

 

Thanks for all your help.

The suffix is often just a description of whether it's a plastic or ceramic chip, etc.  If it's 74LS00(anything), then it's what you need.

 

The 74LS541 is the chip that takes the controller inputs.  The 74LS00 chooses which inputs to read.  You say it works fine with the roller controller, so that seems to indicate that the 541's are good.

[Dopy25]

7 minutes ago, ChildOfCv said:

The suffix is often just a description of whether it's a plastic or ceramic chip, etc.  If it's 74LS00(anything), then it's what you need.

 

The 74LS541 is the chip that takes the controller inputs.  The 74LS00 chooses which inputs to read.  You say it works fine with the roller controller, so that seems to indicate that the 541's are good.

Oooohhhhhhh. It's 2 different ones. For some reason I was thinking it was the same part. Your explanation here makes so much sense now. I will find a 74LS00. 

 

So it's safe to say this would be a good replacement?

 

https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/texas-instruments/SN74LS00N/277272

Edited October 7, 2021 by Dopy25

[ChildOfCv]

3 hours ago, Dopy25 said:

Oooohhhhhhh. It's 2 different ones. For some reason I was thinking it was the same part. Your explanation here makes so much sense now. I will find a 74LS00. 

 

So it's safe to say this would be a good replacement?

 

https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/texas-instruments/SN74LS00N/277272

Yeah that should work

[Dopy25]

On 10/7/2021 at 7:05 PM, ChildOfCv said:

Yeah that should work

Got the replacement swapped in today. It seemed to not work for a second but I guess that could have been the controller. 

 

After a minute and another try at swapping the controller between ports it seems to work fine even after a power cycle. 

 

I haven't tried the roller ball yet to see if it works normal but I'll post back tomorrow about that.

 

I also got the lm318 and am waiting on boards from osh. Really looking forward to that.

[Dopy25]

Yeah so the roller controller doesn't go back or down or whatever. Only up, left, and right. It's very freaking annoying. Controllers and keypad work unless I plug them through the roller controller now. 

 

Could those chips be bad too? Or could the other controller chips be bad as well?

 

[ChildOfCv]

On 10/15/2021 at 2:34 PM, Dopy25 said:

Could those chips be bad too? Or could the other controller chips be bad as well?

Another possibility is that the connector port on the CV has broken solder joints.  Look carefully at the bottom of the board where the pattern of 9 pins comes in on each port.  Either way, try reflowing them.

[Dopy25]

I'll give that a shot. I just thought it was weird that now the regular controllers work, albeit intermittently.

 

I still have it open because I'm waiting for a delivery on the av mod parts so I'll check on those pins.

[Dopy25]

@ChildOfCv 

 

After touching up the joints on the controller ports (and a few of the pins on the controller ICs) the controllers work properly every time, even after being in the roller ball.

 

The issue still stands though where in slither, the roller won't go back. It goes forward, and even moves forward when rolling left/right. I'm not sure what that's about. I'm pretty sure I have all the games the roller supports but I'm not sure how to use them. War games is weird. Omega race seems to move ok but that's only to turn the ship(?) And then one of the buttons jets forward.

 

Are these normal behaviors, or does it sound like an issue with the roller?

 

Also, slither doesn't do Jack with a regular controller.

[ChildOfCv]

Yeah Slither should respond to any roller direction by moving in that direction, and it does require the roller controller.

 

Try plugging in the controls backwards (p2 in p1 plug and vice versa) to see if left/right will give you up/down, and if it only goes right.  That will help localize the issue.

Edited October 18, 2021 by ChildOfCv

[Dopy25]

7 hours ago, ChildOfCv said:

Try plugging in the controls backwards (p2 in p1 plug and vice versa) to see if left/right will give you up/down, and if it only goes right.  That will help localize the issue.

Ok so yes, when plugged in reverse, the character moves up/down and right only. No left.

 

What does that mean? I'm going to check continuity on the p1 cable in the meantime but do you have any other suggestions?

[ChildOfCv]

Okay so one of the Roller Controller outputs is working correctly.  The other has a problem.  The first thing to check is that the pins all make it to the circuit board.