+atari2600land Posted October 4, 2021 Share Posted October 4, 2021 I have an idea for an Intellivision game. I am wondering if I should start programming it now, or if I should wait, just in case there's a INTYBasic Programming 2022 contest. All I have done right now is a title screen, so it's not like I'm working feverishly on it. I got my INTVII back from the garage, hooked it up and it works fine. Yay! 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carlsson Posted October 5, 2021 Share Posted October 5, 2021 Unless I'm mistaken, you may enter a future contest with a program you previously posted about as WIP. Last time there was one ruling that could regulate that: The games submitted do not necessarily need to be new, but must be your own work, not sold commercially or released in cartridge format previously. I'd say code as much as your heart desires. In practice you don't have to post about it if you like to keep it a surprise until it is nearly done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zendocon Posted October 5, 2021 Share Posted October 5, 2021 Definitely work on it ahead of time. We're here to help if you run into any trouble along the way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fsuinnc Posted October 5, 2021 Share Posted October 5, 2021 Always work on your own schedule. You never what might come up and get in the way if wait. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+cmadruga Posted October 5, 2021 Share Posted October 5, 2021 It would actually be nice to know if there is anything planned for next year. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+DZ-Jay Posted October 10, 2021 Share Posted October 10, 2021 On 10/5/2021 at 1:51 PM, cmadruga said: It would actually be nice to know if there is anything planned for next year. Yes, agreed! I'm excited to see what sort of amazing games the IntyBASIC crowd will put out next. Seeing some of the projects come to life is always a thrill. :) @nanochess, any plans for a 2021 or 2022 contest? -dZ. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+nanochess Posted October 10, 2021 Share Posted October 10, 2021 10 hours ago, DZ-Jay said: Yes, agreed! I'm excited to see what sort of amazing games the IntyBASIC crowd will put out next. Seeing some of the projects come to life is always a thrill. @nanochess, any plans for a 2021 or 2022 contest? -dZ. Not yet. Too busy with Real Life(tm) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+DZ-Jay Posted October 10, 2021 Share Posted October 10, 2021 (edited) 18 minutes ago, nanochess said: Not yet. Too busy with Real Life(tm) No worries, I understand. Would you be opposed to someone else then perhaps taking up the mantle and running an unofficial "official" contest? Edited October 10, 2021 by DZ-Jay Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+nanochess Posted October 11, 2021 Share Posted October 11, 2021 20 hours ago, DZ-Jay said: No worries, I understand. Would you be opposed to someone else then perhaps taking up the mantle and running an unofficial "official" contest? I wouldn't have any problem if you want to run the contest. Time frames and rules are very well established. If I remember right you ran the penultimate contest. At this very moment I'm pretty unable to do advanced planning, but in February I hope to get more free time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+DZ-Jay Posted October 11, 2021 Share Posted October 11, 2021 12 minutes ago, nanochess said: I wouldn't have any problem if you want to run the contest. Time frames and rules are very well established. If I remember right you ran the penultimate contest. At this very moment I'm pretty unable to do advanced planning, but in February I hope to get more free time. Thanks. I'll see if I can get something planned soon. dZ. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carlsson Posted October 13, 2021 Share Posted October 13, 2021 While it probably isn't the programming contest people would want, I'm still musing about the idea to make a 2 kB binary contest (or 2.9 kB for maximum resolution of a QR code). It might prove new methods of "smart" programming, perhaps even suggestions for future features in your programming language of choice that would be efficient in size. Generally that is no longer a problem, but sometimes optimizing for size (both in the old Minigame Compos and the BASIC 10Liner contests) is more rewarding than keep bloating as required. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+DZ-Jay Posted October 13, 2021 Share Posted October 13, 2021 Just now, carlsson said: While it probably isn't the programming contest people would want, I'm still musing about the idea to make a 2 kB binary contest (or 2.9 kB for maximum resolution of a QR code). It might prove new methods of "smart" programming, perhaps even suggestions for future features in your programming language of choice that would be efficient in size. Generally that is no longer a problem, but sometimes optimizing for size (both in the old Minigame Compos and the BASIC 10Liner contests) is more rewarding than keep bloating as required. Are you thinking of an IntyBASIC-specific contest? I ask because, the obvious approach would be that Assembly Language programs would definitely have an advantage, but then it would severely limit the pool of participants. -dZ. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carlsson Posted October 13, 2021 Share Posted October 13, 2021 Why not both, or two categories? Yeah, an assembly language program would have an advantage, in particular if it relies on EXEC routines so it doesn't have to reinvent quite as many wheels as the IntyBASIC runtime presumably does. Perhaps 2 kB is a little narrow, but surely within 4 kB it should be possible to write quite decent programs, even compiled ones. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+DZ-Jay Posted October 13, 2021 Share Posted October 13, 2021 (edited) 26 minutes ago, carlsson said: Why not both, or two categories? I was thinking that perhaps an IntyBASIC programmer would be turned off at the prospect of competing against an Assembly Language programmer in a contest of highly compact code -- or worse, having to dabble in Assembly Language himself. Then, leaving the field open to just Assembly Language programmers would just result in what, one or two entries? That said, two categories would be great (silly me, for not thinking of it). ? Quote Yeah, an assembly language program would have an advantage, in particular if it relies on EXEC routines so it doesn't have to reinvent quite as many wheels as the IntyBASIC runtime presumably does. Well, now you've narrowed down the pool even more, to those with experience and exposure to the EXEC! ? We're down to perhaps a single entry from @Zendocon (that is, unless @Carl Mueller Jr, @intvnut, or @decle decide to join in). Quote Perhaps 2 kB is a little narrow, but surely within 4 kB it should be possible to write quite decent programs, even compiled ones. Agreed! I think that's a terrific idea: Can we make games as sophisticated or better than what Mattel did back in the day in the same space? I would pit the 40 years of industry experience in game design, and the several years of combined community experience in Intellivision hacking on our side, against Mattel's EXEC. I think this would be one for the ages. I'm seriously considering running this contest now. -dZ. Edited October 13, 2021 by DZ-Jay 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carlsson Posted October 13, 2021 Share Posted October 13, 2021 Compile early, compile often to learn which constructs are lean and which generate more code than you expected. I already observed a few things in the test I did before, e.g. that displaying graphics doesn't seem to consume that much space compared to game logic. Also a 4 kB (or 2 kilodecle) ceiling distances it from the previous compos. As an additional benefit, if the resulting entries are decent enough, you could easily fit the top 10 onto a compilation cartridge, similar to those Showcase cartridge series. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+atari2600land Posted October 13, 2021 Author Share Posted October 13, 2021 While IntyBASIC is a wonderful tool for creating Intellivision games, it does tend to eat up space rather quickly. For example, the game I'm working on for a few days and it's already at 11k. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+DZ-Jay Posted October 13, 2021 Share Posted October 13, 2021 1 minute ago, atari2600land said: While IntyBASIC is a wonderful tool for creating Intellivision games, it does tend to eat up space rather quickly. For example, the game I'm working on for a few days and it's already at 11k. I agree. This contest that we're thinking of would aim to encourage programmers to find optimal ways to do the same things with less code. I've personally noticed that there are some ways to express certain things in IntyBASIC that take more space, and that expressing them differently leads to more compact or efficient code while still being functionally equivalent. -dZ. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carlsson Posted October 13, 2021 Share Posted October 13, 2021 (edited) In this case, I think Yoda is wrong. There absolutely is a "try" between "do" and "do not". If it turns out to be pointless to make any playable game within 4 kB, then so mote it be and the compo could be called off or motives changed. Edited October 13, 2021 by carlsson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+DZ-Jay Posted October 13, 2021 Share Posted October 13, 2021 (edited) 5 minutes ago, carlsson said: In this case, I think Yoda is wrong. There absolutely is a "try" between "do" and "do not". If it turns out to be pointless to make any playable game within 4 kB, then so mote it be and the compo could be called off or motives changed. Meh. If people find it too imposing to constrain themselves to 4K, we can just update the rules in place to say 6K, or 8K or 12K, or whatever. Then we can all forget that the 4K rule was ever there in the first place and adapt. Master Yoda can help with a wave of his hand. Easy, peacy. ? -dZ. Edited October 13, 2021 by DZ-Jay Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zendocon Posted October 13, 2021 Share Posted October 13, 2021 36 minutes ago, DZ-Jay said: Meh. If people find it too imposing to constrain themselves to 4K, we can just update the rules in place to say 6K, or 8K or 12K, or whatever. Then we can all forget that the 4K rule was ever there in the first place and adapt. Master Yoda can help with a wave of his hand. Easy, peacy. Given that the first 8K is contiguous, and was probably designed that way from the get-go for expandability, I wouldn't mind having a cap of 8K. The original indie games were capped at 16K, and I recall dedicating the last 4K for the "cartridge self-diagnostics easter egg" developed by @intvnut which left only 12K for actual code in SameGame & Robots. So I'm open to 8K, 12K, or 16K. For reference, Space Patrol is 16K. 1 hour ago, DZ-Jay said: Agreed! I think that's a terrific idea: Can we make games as sophisticated or better than what Mattel did back in the day in the same space? I would pit the 40 years of industry experience in game design, and the several years of combined community experience in Intellivision hacking on our side, against Mattel's EXEC. I think this would be one for the ages. I'm seriously considering running this contest now. I think a 4K constraint is too artificial, given that the EXEC routines are not even close to being fully documented. The ones I added to The Intellivision Wiki page are based on the ones I personally used for my early projects. But until all the EXEC routines are documented, we're at a major competitive disadvantage with the APh developers to make something in 4K. If this is a go, I'll have to modify my PIDEGS tool to add a button for Assembly only, rather than just IntyBASIC compilation followed by Assembly if no errors are found. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carlsson Posted October 13, 2021 Share Posted October 13, 2021 Over at the 8-bit computer scene, with the exception of the ZX81 and alike, the Minigame compos limited to 1K or 2K also were quite artificial. On the other hand we don't how many else really would be interested in this size limited contest, whether it is 4K or 8K. I believe if you go all the way up to 16 kB, you more or less have a regular contest entry. At least neither of the simple games I've made exceed 16K in binary size, including title screen(s) and music. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zendocon Posted October 13, 2021 Share Posted October 13, 2021 1 minute ago, carlsson said: Over at the 8-bit computer scene, with the exception of the ZX81 and alike, the Minigame compos limited to 1K or 2K also were quite artificial. On the other hand we don't how many else really would be interested in this size limited contest, whether it is 4K or 8K. I believe if you go all the way up to 16 kB, you more or less have a regular contest entry. At least neither of the simple games I've made exceed 16K in binary size, including title screen(s) and music. Something like the @nanochess Boot Sector games, which leaves you with only 510 bytes, is fine if you have something definite as the end goal. My suggestion is settling toward 8K. 16K is too generous, as you say, but 12K is a maybe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+DZ-Jay Posted October 13, 2021 Share Posted October 13, 2021 33 minutes ago, Zendocon said: Something like the @nanochess Boot Sector games, which leaves you with only 510 bytes, is fine if you have something definite as the end goal. My suggestion is settling toward 8K. 16K is too generous, as you say, but 12K is a maybe. I think I'd like to start with 4K and see what it gives us. -dZ. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+atari2600land Posted October 13, 2021 Author Share Posted October 13, 2021 I have an idea for a small game, but I'm not sure if I can get it done with IntyBasic in just 4k. I'll try, though. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+DZ-Jay Posted October 13, 2021 Share Posted October 13, 2021 Just now, atari2600land said: I have an idea for a small game, but I'm not sure if I can get it done with IntyBasic in just 4k. I'll try, though. That's the spirit! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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