Keystone Koppers [Done]

[+-^CrossBow^-]

I'm not sure if this a bug or not...but I've noticed in the later levels that sometimes the shopping cart and airplane will actually be moving in the same direction as you entered the screen instead of from the other side? As a result, they aren't that difficult to avoid at all. The ONLY problem I really have with the higher difficulty levels is the dual bounce balls as even if you are able to find where to duck to avoid them, it takes WAY too much time to clear that screen in the process and I don't believe either of these two things were issues with any other version?

 

Speaking of the plane... at least on the 2600 version, the first time the plane appears, you were able to duck under it and still clear the screen just before it came back across. It didn't become a double duck section until the plane went to the next speed up as I believe the plane and cart have 3 levels of speed originally? I think that is the case with this WIP version as well, but with the plane not being avoidable without 2 ducks from the beginning, there isn't much change in gameplay style needed between the first speed and second speed of the plane.

 

Keep in mind that in my youth when I played KK quite a lot, it was only on my 2600 as that was the only version of the game I owned or even knew about back then. So I've not got any real experience with the other platforms the game was released on.

 

 

[+Muddyfunster]

35 minutes ago, -^CrossBow^- said:

I'm not sure if this a bug or not...but I've noticed in the later levels that sometimes the shopping cart and airplane will actually be moving in the same direction as you entered the screen instead of from the other side? As a result, they aren't that difficult to avoid at all.

This "direction reverse" is consistent with the A8 and C64 versions on higher levels

 

35 minutes ago, -^CrossBow^- said:

Speaking of the plane... at least on the 2600 version, the first time the plane appears, you were able to duck under it and still clear the screen just before it came back across

Again this is consistent with the C64 version (and I think the A8 version, but I'd have to check) rather than the 2600 version.

 

36 minutes ago, -^CrossBow^- said:

The ONLY problem I really have with the higher difficulty levels is the dual bounce balls as even if you are able to find where to duck to avoid them, it takes WAY too much time to clear that screen in the process

 

I agree that the double bouncing balls does feel a little off and I'll be taking a look at that for sure.

 

Thanks for the feedback @-^CrossBow^-

Edited November 7, 2021 by Muddyfunster

[+Muddyfunster]

2 hours ago, darryl1970 said:

@Muddyfunster very nice. I actually smiled when I saw the ZPH reveal, and I didn't even play the game growing up. The graphics are great, the animation is great, and the gameplay looks great. I love the cut scenes.

 

I've been too busy to download the ROM or finish watching the stream. (I previewed Twitch from my tablet before bed one night.) Now that it's on YouTube, I'll be able to catch up during my lunchtime elliptical. I can't wait to actually test it out. It looks great!

Thanks Darryl, appreciate that, hope you have as much fun testing it as I've had with Pengo! 

[+-^CrossBow^-]

3 minutes ago, Muddyfunster said:

This "direction reverse" is consistent with the A8 and C64 versions on higher levels

 

Again this is consistent with the C64 version rather than the 2600 version.

 

 

Ah.. gotcha. Again, my main experience with the game in detail was just the 2600 release so naturally I'm going from that. I did know about the obstacles still being present on the screen that the krook is on, but also knew it was due to limitations in the system back then. So I was on board with that. But yeah...those dual bounce balls, I'm likely to just hit them to get through the screen quicker so I can still catch up with the krook. That has been my strategy so far. I also have confirmed the slow down does occur on actual hardware when you have all rows filled with radios. But, it doesn't seem to be as slow as it was in the ZPH stream? Also when it happened on my console, the music was affected as well and it wasn't on the ZPH stream? So... no idea for why the differences. I might very well record a playthrough to try and capture some of that.

 

[+Muddyfunster]

3 minutes ago, -^CrossBow^- said:

Ah.. gotcha. Again, my main experience with the game in detail was just the 2600 release so naturally I'm going from that. I did know about the obstacles still being present on the screen that the krook is on, but also knew it was due to limitations in the system back then. So I was on board with that. But yeah...those dual bounce balls, I'm likely to just hit them to get through the screen quicker so I can still catch up with the krook. That has been my strategy so far. I also have confirmed the slow down does occur on actual hardware when you have all rows filled with radios. But, it doesn't seem to be as slow as it was in the ZPH stream? Also when it happened on my console, the music was affected as well and it wasn't on the ZPH stream? So... no idea for why the differences. I might very well record a playthrough to try and capture some of that.

 

Great, thanks Jesse. The slowdown is one that will definately be tackled, I have some ideas on how to fix that but any footage showing it helps, as it will help me to recreate the conditions.

 

Regarding the game elements, you are right about the 2600 and clearing the floor when the robber is there. This version doesn't follow any of the versions 100%, but then again, none of the other versions follow each other 100% either so it's quite the hybrid. The only version I didn't really look at was the Coleco/MSX version as it didn't add anything and the others, frankly were just better benchmarks.

 

Also the reversing is easy to handle right now, but that's gonna get more tricky post level 10  

[+Muddyfunster]

51 minutes ago, Jinks said:

This is easily the best version of Keystone kapers anywhere. 

Games such at this, Millie and Mollie, Exo, Popeye, Pengo and probably 3 or 4 others hopefully make it into cart form soon. Back in 2013 when Bob I think was the only homebrew developer at the time was cranking out 3 or 4 games a year and putting them on cart right away and selling to us 7800 nerds directly. Today we have way more games going on but it seems they get forgotten and lose all the hype because they need extra artwork, manuals, boxes, more channels of distribution etc. 2 or 5 years later most people forget about them or have trouble finding out if they are limited edition who sells them etc. I know not everyone can burn their own games etc. but I miss those times when the game itself was the most important thing not boxes etc. Of course boxes manuals etc. always came after for the people that shelf them to look at and resell. Hell I think I lost my boudlerdash 2600 box and my vikki and vikki 7800 box as they have no lasting appeal for me. The games themselves such as yours have included all the artwork I need to see without it on the packaging. Btw it is great your family is interested in your hobby of classic game programming which you do very well. 

 

Whichever route any developer chooses I am not complaining as that is their choice.  I am just giving my perspective on how I see things which is definitely NOT speaking for everyone. 

 

 

Thanks @Jinks appreciate that .

 

I don't know what the plan will be with this one when it comes to making it available on cart, but I am hopeful we can find a way.

 

I need to talk to Albert about that, there are some complexities to overcome with the title etc. Personally I'd like to see a cart release as I think there's just something nice about sticking a cart in the console and playing, but as I said, on this one, we have some things to figure out first.

 

EXO & Danger Zone will definitely be coming to cart soon (Danger Zone soon, EXO likely early next year at a guess) and I have a few other things that will likely pop up in the next few weeks too, that I'd also like to see a physical release for at some point.

 

Cheers.

 

 

[SoundGammon]

Great conversion! Hard to quit playing!

 

Now that you rattled the hornets nest, I now want to see other conversions of some Activision games: Robot Tank, Enduro, Star Master...

 

 ...with 7800 graphics!

[+DrVenkman]

So I gave this one a quick playtest this afternoon - looks and sounds great on my Dragonfly. Wonderful to see a great classic like this updated for the 7800.

 

I then tried the Concerto build and have a few quirks. I neglected to take video, unfortunately, but the first time I started it up, POKEY audio was ... weird. That's the only way I can describe it. The second levels seemed out of whack, or maybe even one channel missing entirely. I'm not sure. Once I cycled the audio to Music Mode B and back to A, it sounded fine. Later on, after a quick play, I power-cycled my 7800, reloaded from the Concerto menu and audio was fine from the get-go. So maybe just a quirky timing glitch on my system/Concerto with POKEY initialization that first time. I don't know. If I run into it again, I'll try to make a video.

 

The second Concerto glitch is on the title screen. The first characters of each line have rapidly-flickering visual artifacts. They are there but hardly noticeable in the "B" of the "BY GARRY KITCHEN" line, but they get progressively more noticeable further down the screen line by line. By the last line, there is very obvious glitches in the "U" for "UP + DOWN ..." and the last character of that line ("1") is also glitching very obviously. These glitches do not seem to appear during play at all, but when returning to menu, they reappear. So it appears to strictly be a title screen artifact. 

 

This stills kind of show what I see, but they are not static so it's hard to capture in just a photo:

 

 

[AtariBrian]

Great job on this game so far!!  I have never been a huge fan of Keystone but yet I always got sucked into playing it if that makes sense. This would be a day one buy for me, can't wait to have a cart of it!!! I am curious if there would be an option to have the music turned on or off?

[+Muddyfunster]

38 minutes ago, DrVenkman said:

So I gave this one a quick playtest this afternoon - looks and sounds great on my Dragonfly. Wonderful to see a great classic like this updated for the 7800.

Thanks !

 

39 minutes ago, DrVenkman said:

I then tried the Concerto build and have a few quirks.

 

Keystone Kapers is a 128kb + 16kb RAM + POKEY format and I believe that the current Concerto firmware has some issues with that particular format. Right now we can minimise them by compiling a Concerto version but as you noted, there are still some glitches and artifacts. I think similar issues occured with Milly & Molly and others. From a programming perspective, I don't think I can do anything to resolve it, I think it's a firmware consideration on Concerto.

 

 

 

 

[+Muddyfunster]

46 minutes ago, SoundGammon said:

Great conversion! Hard to quit playing!

 

Now that you rattled the hornets nest, I now want to see other conversions of some Activision games: Robot Tank, Enduro, Star Master...

 

 ...with 7800 graphics!

Thanks  ,

 

There is quite the back library and I'm sure more than a few would be great on the 7800.

 

 

10 minutes ago, AtariBrian said:

Great job on this game so far!!  I have never been a huge fan of Keystone but yet I always got sucked into playing it if that makes sense. This would be a day one buy for me, can't wait to have a cart of it!!! I am curious if there would be an option to have the music turned on or off?

Thanks !   I could add a "Mode C" for no music, that wouldn't be a problem to add.

Edited November 7, 2021 by Muddyfunster

[+DrVenkman]

Just now, Muddyfunster said:

Keystone Kapers is a 128kb + 16kb RAM + POKEY format and I believe that the current Concerto firmware has some issues with that particular format. Right now we can minimise them by compiling a Concerto version but as you noted, there are still some glitches and artifacts. I think similar issues occured with Milly & Molly and others. From a programming perspective, I don't think I can do anything to resolve it, I think it's a firmware consideration on Concerto.

I figured there was a reason and you'd already be on top of it, but wanted to let you know just in case. Hopefully @batari can roll out some Concerto firmware updates soon for things like this.  

[Fierodoug5]

Just played the demo through all 10 levels on my Dragonfly cart. Amazing work on this. Always was my favorite game on the 2600, and this 7800 version just looks and plays amazing.

Now I must rest my hand from that Pain-Line controller

[+DrVenkman]

18 minutes ago, Fierodoug5 said:

Now I must rest my hand from that Pain-Line controller

This doctor prescribes an Edladdin Seagull 78 + Sega Genesis pad.

[7800Knight]

I am impressed!

 

Some criticized the advanced graphics and background details of the 5200/8-bit computer port of Keystone Kapers as being distracting.  I like the graphics here!

[+bhall408]

On 11/6/2021 at 7:14 AM, Muddyfunster said:

• Untested on Argon as I don't have a way to test on that emulator.

As far as I can tell, works fine. I played one game to the end...

 

I have to say, these are the most advanced graphics I have seen in any 8-bit (6502/Z80) version! The ball and umbrellas especially!

 

Have you shown it to Garry yet?

 

[SlidellMan]

This is shaping up to be a magnificent port.

[+sramirez2008]

I've always liked the 2600 version of Keystone Kapers, but this will now be the definitive version for me.  Love all the sprite work...title, intermission & game over screens as well as, the overall gameplay.  Its all there and then some!  Thank you for adding the directional dial above the elevator.  Your attention to detail has led to vastly improved port and this is an instabuy for me.?

[+littaum]

This is a fantastic looking game, and really captures the mood of the original.  I do have a "lore" question though.  In the original version of the game your goal is to capture Hooligan Harry before he escapes the department store (why does Harry keep getting let back loose after you capture him?  Does he have a really good lawyer?  I digress...)  However, in your version you are capturing krooks, and in a cutscene there is shown 5 of them running from Office Keystone Kelly (I assume?) - are they all Hooligan Harry clones (klones?) or is it Hooligan Harry and his gang, or something else entirely?

 

Also - how feasible is it for Office Kelly to capture krooks of various racial skin tones?  In the ZPH stream all of the krooks were darker skinned, while in the updated version you've posted they are back to their stubbly white guy look of the original label art.  The cutscene could potentially show off the skin tone of each krook that you capture.   

 

[+Muddyfunster]

3 hours ago, littaum said:

This is a fantastic looking game, and really captures the mood of the original.  I do have a "lore" question though.  In the original version of the game your goal is to capture Hooligan Harry before he escapes the department store (why does Harry keep getting let back loose after you capture him?  Does he have a really good lawyer?  I digress...)  However, in your version you are capturing krooks, and in a cutscene there is shown 5 of them running from Office Keystone Kelly (I assume?) - are they all Hooligan Harry clones (klones?) or is it Hooligan Harry and his gang, or something else entirely?

I'm not sure about the lore for the original, maybe Hooligan Harry did have a good lawyer.  

 

In this version, it's Hooligan Harry and his gang of krooks - the ingame instructions comments on that a little. The cutscene comes after you complete level 5 (and would come after every 5th level in the final version), and represents the previous 5 you captured.

 

3 hours ago, littaum said:

Also - how feasible is it for Office Kelly to capture krooks of various racial skin tones?  In the ZPH stream all of the krooks were darker skinned, while in the updated version you've posted they are back to their stubbly white guy look of the original label art.  The cutscene could potentially show off the skin tone of each krook that you capture.   

Regarding the skin tones, the idea with the krook was to make him look grubby, dirty and unkempt, like he's escaped from being on a chain gang or something. That was the sole intention and it was not meant to reflect or imply ethnicity in any way. Some folks interpreted this a different way, which I had not anticipated or intended. To address this, I've reorganised the palettes to allow cop and krook to share the same 160B palette, meaning the krook now uses the same tones as the kop.  

 

I don't plan to make any other changes beyond that. It's supposed to be a fun remake of a classic, nothing more, no agenda, no politics!

 

Edited November 8, 2021 by Muddyfunster

[Jinks]

You got to be kidding me.. someone actually brought up some racial bs in a 7800 video game? One place in this world where I thought this would not be a thing here it rears its ugly head..maybe I should go to a forum for vertex or something but maybe the shapes would be offensive too in this hyper sensitive make belief fantasy world that some fringe people live in.  This sickens me.. I feel sick reading that someone could be so stupid. Who ever this idiot is should be banned for corrupting this forum with their nonsense.  I guess I should never be surprised at the amount of stupidity people will go to when it comes to pushing  their sick ideology on everyone. 

 

The some folks line pissed me off. More than 1??? WOW!!

These aholes should be ashamed of yourselves for suggesting such bs..

 

 

[+Karl G]

I've had a lot of fun playing the demo under a7800. I'm hoping I get a chance to play it on hardware while I'm visiting @mvo later this week. It's a very impressive port!

 

Edit: I'm not sure if this was true in earlier versions, but the music seems to be the opposite tune in the game as was selected on the title screen.

[+Muddyfunster]

1 hour ago, Karl G said:

Edit: I'm not sure if this was true in earlier versions, but the music seems to be the opposite tune in the game as was selected on the title screen.

It is Karl, the two modes just flip the tunes,

 

A gives Entertainer on the title page and Maple Rag in game, B is the reverse of that.

 

It was always that way  

[DEBRO]

Hi there,

 

Moderators please feel free to move this. I do not want to take away from this incredible work however I felt an explanation was warranted.

 

21 hours ago, Jinks said:

You got to be kidding me.. someone actually brought up some racial bs in a 7800 video game? One place in this world where I thought this would not be a thing here it rears its ugly head..maybe I should go to a forum for vertex or something but maybe the shapes would be offensive too in this hyper sensitive make belief fantasy world that some fringe people live in.  This sickens me.. I feel sick reading that someone could be so stupid. Who ever this idiot is should be banned for corrupting this forum with their nonsense.  I guess I should never be surprised at the amount of stupidity people will go to when it comes to pushing  their sick ideology on everyone. 

I guess I would be the one you would want banned from the forums.

 

I watched the YouTube video of the unveiling. When the game was revealed; I loved what I saw. The detailed graphics and level of detail of this version was outstanding! Keystone Kapers was a favored game of mine as a young teen. Today, I still love it and with a different respect knowing what Garry Kitchen did to get this on the VCS.

 

As the stream progressed though I couldn't focus on the work as much; my focus changed to why Harry Hooligan was now brown.

One could say or ask themselves what difference does it make. I wish I could have been one that didn't see it however that is not my life experience. I'm not going to go in to it here but know we all have different experiences. Your experiences maybe could dismiss the krook as being brown however my experiences could not. This is why I proceeded to ask the question on the YouTube channel..."No one asked so here goes...why the decision to make 'Harry Hooligan' brown?" Knowing everyone has different experiences; I was curious about the decision.

 

@Muddyfunster answered the question and I understand their logic. They even went further to understand that having the antagonist with a different skin tone could be looked at in a negative light. They then went the extra mile in an already outstanding remake and reworked the palette. I have done 7800 dev before and have an idea of the undertaking to switch the palette.

 

As a homebrew author I believe all should have artistic freedom in their work. And I in no means will ever try to stifle artistic freedom. I asked a question, it was answered, and we move on with this incredible masterpiece.

 

@Muddyfunster, I had been reverse engineering the VCS version of Keystone Kapers. I don't know if it would help much but I'll send what I have your way. I look forward to playing this on my 7800!

[+saxmeister]

An amazing job! This is incredible. If only this had been available back in the day... Great work. You are inspiring me to try my hand at some dev work now.