Digital ROMS for us Emulator people

[zzip]

1 minute ago, christo930 said:

This is actually a pretty good idea.  The downside though, is that a customer can buy it, copy the ROM easily  and then sell the original kit.  Granted, you can copy cartridges pretty easily with the right equipment, but most people don't have the right equipment.

There is that risk,  but I think most of the people buying retrogames are more mature, feel that developer deserves the money asked, have disposable income anyway,  so I think relatively few would do that.    It also isn't that hard to rip a traditional cart for these systems either these days so having it in cart form isn't really stopping piracy

[Greg2600]

19 hours ago, Defender_2600 said:

Honestly, reading this it seems that some people forget that the development of the aforementioned "virtual" ROM requires hundreds or, for more ambitious projects, a few thousand hours of "real work", regardless of whether the ROM is distributed in digital form or physical edition. But no problem, in fact you can buy the digital ROM with your credit card and therefore pay with "virtual money".

 

Among other things, it should be superfluous to remember that the ROM purchased via download will be permanently (physically) in your hard disk and it is exactly the same ROM contained in the physical cartridge. Now we could ask ourselves if the cartridge will fail first or if the hard disk will fail first but in the latter case you can easily make backup copies. Of course, some original PS1 CDs are starting to become unreadable so we certainly can't call them "virtual" but simply "Disc rot". That said, I love physical cartridges.

Well I think you're going to have a baked in group of collectors who want the complete package regardless.  For the others (like myself) who are much more casual, a CIB may not be something we ever buy, for various reasons.  At least a digital program provides the rest of us who may wish to tip the homebrewer.  Most of these folks are programming for the challenge/fun, it's not much of a financially beneficial hobby.  Furthermore, a good chunk are making use of copyrighted IP that thankfully they get away with in small quantities, but are technically pirating from the IP-holders.  Harrr Harrr Harr! 

 

Last point I'd make on the cost aspect which @christo930 also brought up, I would admittedly have no interest paying $30-$40 for a ROM.  Then again, many digital downloads on modern consoles are $10 or less, for instance.  Odds are these roms will not have DRM attached, so there is zero resale value to them, unlike a homebrew physical release which frequently increase in value significantly. 

6 hours ago, christo930 said:

This is actually a pretty good idea.  The downside though, is that a customer can buy it, copy the ROM easily  and then sell the original kit.  Granted, you can copy cartridges pretty easily with the right equipment, but most people don't have the right equipment.

This does happen, although not very often as that entire process is kind of a pain in the neck, and who has the time? 

[RevEng]

2 hours ago, Greg2600 said:

Most of these folks are programming for the challenge/fun, it's not much of a financially beneficial hobby.  Furthermore, a good chunk are making use of copyrighted IP that thankfully they get away with in small quantities, but are technically pirating from the IP-holders.  Harrr Harrr Harr! 

Not replying, just quoting for the sake of highlight. Homebrewers should take note that faithfully replicating decades-old IP will be justification for some players as to why you don't deserve as much (or any) recompense for your new work. No doubt your work will still be enjoyed, so keep slaving away boys. The price is right. Harr Harr Harr!

[+TwentySixHundred]

I have also thought about this route many times over the years. Many games that can't possibly make it to the AA store yet some may want a digital copy. Have even thought about unique serial coding on each digital release to track where the dumped ROMs come from.

[+Defender_2600]

11 hours ago, christo930 said:

No, I don't forget.  That's why I said the small market drives prices up.  if you're selling a million, all the upfront labor of creating the game is spread out across a million sales. Spread out across a few hundred, means each sale has to be for more money.

This is a generalization, the final cost of a video game has always been included in a range of a few tens of dollars and, excluding extreme cases, there has not been all the time a direct proportionality between the development cost, the copies sold, or the cost of physical media... an easy example: Dreamcast Shenmue and Dreamcast Resident Evil 2 vs N64 Namco Museum and N64 Resident Evil 2 (64MB). But that is not relevant here, with some exceptions, the development of an Atari Homebrew is essentially a labor of love and the developer usually either doesn't get any money or only gets a few cents for every hour of his hard work, so a fee we can call "unreasonable" if we paraphrase your words. But thanks to this "unreasonable" work, today you can find a lot of free ROMs, as well as having the opportunity to buy brand new cartridges in the AA store (with professional packaging and at the aforementioned cost of a few tens of dollars), the sale of which generates a small profit that is needed to help pay the heavy cost of maintaining the AA site.

 

12 hours ago, christo930 said:

This economic reality drives the high costs. I get it.

So, considering the generosity of the development, the high quality of the software, the high quality of the components and boards (including the ingenious hardware development), the high quality of the packaging and the excellent sales / shipping / warranty service, I really don't I can think that an Atari Homebrew purchased in the AA store has high costs, indeed I believe that the products and the service represent a reference of excellence. In addition, you can still save money by purchasing only the cartridge and the manual without the box. The next step will be to offer the option to purchase the digital ROM and this would also allow for further money saving, leaving (when available) the possibility of downloading a free demo to try the game.

 

12 hours ago, christo930 said:

Doesn't mean I want to or can afford to pay it.

In fact, nobody here is asking for your money.

 

12 hours ago, christo930 said:

It ABSOLUTELY does not de-legitimize my or any other person's thoughts on it.

On 1/21/2022 at 2:58 AM, christo930 said:

The problem with "virtual" products is people want "real" money for them.

Again, your thinking is crystal clear, you wrote that your problem is that people (developers in our case) want "money" for their hard work, but it is ABSOLUTELY legitimate to think that their ROMs should be downloaded for free (!). Of course, free is always better (!). Ironically, unfortunately the developers are only getting a few peanuts here. But I won't add anything else, I don't want to waste time and I don't care to change your mind.

 

Generally speaking, I think that the time of the homebrew developers deserves more value and, although some people really have great gratitude for the release of free ROMs, over the years I have seen people who are too used to downloading free ROMs, to the point of taking it for granted or demand it arrogantly. And in the end, it may happen that what has been obtained for free begins to be perceived as something of little value.

In light of these and other considerations, my opinion is that the right direction is to offer only demo versions for free and add the option to purchase digital ROMs. I think it could get good success and be a form of incentive for developers. That said, it is more than obvious that every developer (or publisher) is completely free to choose the direction they prefer and without the obligation to motivate it.

 

13 hours ago, christo930 said:

You are forgetting that a cartridge can be sold.  Once you buy a ROM, its value is zero.  With a cartridge, I can play the game till I get bored of it and then sell it off to the next person.

They are two different markets that cover different needs and that have different prices (and I'm referring to the purchase of new, unused cartridges, of course). The cartridges of some of the best-selling games have already been coexisting, for some time, with the release of their free ROM. The next step is to offer the additional option of purchasing the digital ROM, the goal is not to replace the physical cartridge. Just as a side note, I have always been a collector of physical editions but as I get older the points of view have a broader horizon.

[Keatah]

I rather take a simple approach and don't deep-dive into differentiating ROMS vs CARTS vs DIGITAL DOWNLOADS to the nth degree. Not too interested in novel complex delivery schemes like consoles based on subscriptions or NFT or mixes of in-game transactions and overloaded DLC + DRM either.

 

Roms and Digital D'L are for the people that like to travel light and maximize value in limited space. Bringing to the table the versatility, reliability, convenience, and even elegance, of FPGA or Software Emulation. I fall into that category these days.

 

Cartridges are for collectors and those who like to have a display going. To look at and enjoy. To chase after when collecting. To recreate nostalgic times in every possible detail and tactility. Keeping it real. I used to fall into that category decades ago. Carts are good distro methods for kids with the collecting bug. Loved my wall'O'carts in 1977-1984. Today 4me it would be a burden.

Edited January 22, 2022 by Keatah

[NIKON]

My intention for starting this thread was to give those of us who (as mentioned in this thread) either do not have nor wish to acquire and maintain physical hardware a voice for ROM purchase and not expect a free download. as thankful that I am for all the free software I have been lucky enough to get...I feel that the ones who create the software should be paid for their efforts and flesh out a thought that I have had for quite sometime. we emulator chaps like to play the games as well but sometimes software is not available to us. 

 I for one have had 3 7800 consoles and every game cart that was available. great as it was, the one common thing that kept occurring was voltage regulator burn out.

I then decided that after my 12th regulator replacement that hardware was not for me... I then decided to go with the emulator route. 

 

There has got to be a way to make this happen. 

 

it is good business and would promote more software to be created.

 

a win win

 

thank you

NIKON

 

[Keatah]

Let me lend you my megaphone.. Don't burn it out and kindly return it fully charged!

 

[+TwentySixHundred]

The only problem when money comes into the equation is shovelware. Despite developing being a hobby some do try learning batari Basic in hope of making a quick buck. Then when that doesn't succeed they vanish from the forum. On the other hand it's obvious those who do make the cut within the AA store or elsewhere tend to develop many games. I'm sure they aren't making much from it but it would definitely have a play in motivation. Just the shear fact of knowing your game is released somewhat commercially. Personally I just enjoy developing for fun. Although I can see how it would keep the enthusiasm alive. I will admit these days as many expect nothing for free I haven't any motivation to please others. Not that many of my projects have attracted much of a crowed anyway lol

[Greg2600]

15 hours ago, RevEng said:

Not replying, just quoting for the sake of highlight. Homebrewers should take note that faithfully replicating decades-old IP will be justification for some players as to why you don't deserve as much (or any) recompense for your new work. No doubt your work will still be enjoyed, so keep slaving away boys. The price is right. Harr Harr Harr!

? Umm, that's not what I was trying to convey, and was not on my mind.  I was already agreeing with Defender's point about the hours spent, and made it by admitting there's little financial reward regardless of how the game is distributed. I was being sarcastic given earlier posts worrying about people dumping a cart, or downloading a ROM and just tossing it on the web.  We're all pirates to some degree, hence the harrr harrr harrr.  To me, this is not the same debate as when prototype owners, who put zero programming time in, will not release a dump for purely financial reasons.  I've been here advocating for an alternative to CIB purchases for years now, some other way to merit the effort.

14 hours ago, Keatah said:

I rather take a simple approach and don't deep-dive into differentiating ROMS vs CARTS vs DIGITAL DOWNLOADS to the nth degree. Not too interested in novel complex delivery schemes like consoles based on subscriptions or NFT or mixes of in-game transactions and overloaded DLC + DRM either.

 

Roms and Digital D'L are for the people that like to travel light and maximize value in limited space. Bringing to the table the versatility, reliability, convenience, and even elegance, of FPGA or Software Emulation. I fall into that category these days.

 

Cartridges are for collectors and those who like to have a display going. To look at and enjoy. To chase after when collecting. To recreate nostalgic times in every possible detail and tactility. Keeping it real. I used to fall into that category decades ago. Carts are good distro methods for kids with the collecting bug. Loved my wall'O'carts in 1977-1984. Today 4me it would be a burden.

Said it far better than I, but that's the gist of it for me, too.  Granted many homebrew groups eventually provide those ROMs free once their cart stock expires.