NTSC or PAL - Which is the original video mode for certain games

[advfan]

In over 99% of cases games that were programmed in the USA look and play better when running in NTSC and the ones programmed in GB or DE look better in PAL. Sometimes it's also pretty obvious as switching between video modes cuts off graphics or it distorts the music speed.

 

But there are some cases where I would like to know which one is the original version and what do you consider is the best way to play that game.

 

Most of the Mastertronic releases that made it also to the USA (Action Biker, Despatch Rider, Crystal Raider, Last V8, Molecule Man, Panther) look and sound better in PAL, as they were programmed in GB, but what about Ninja, SWAT and Kikstart, which were programmed by Scultured Software who if I'm not mistaken were based in the US. Do you think those were done with NTSC machies in mind? Especially Ninja looks much better in NTSC.

 

Also, the games distributed by Americana that were done by Frank Cohen (Beer Belly Burt Brew Biz, Ollie's Follies, Scooter) or Ron Rosen (Nuclear Nick) didn't seem to have a release in the US and only in GB. How do you think they look and play best? I think they were also programmed with NTSC machines in mind.

 

And then there are two titles were I also have my doubts as if the original development machine was NTSC or PAL.

One is Gridrunner, which was released in the same year in both GB and USA. As Jeff Minter is from GB, I figure PAL is the correct way to play it.

 

But my biggest doubts come with Encounter by Paul Woakes. Although he is from GB, the Synapse release is from 1983 while the Novagen release is from 1984, but because Novagen is already mentioned in the Synapse credits, I have absolutely no idea if it was developed on a PAL or on a NTSC machine. Any ideas?

 

I know this can be pretty subjective and some may prefer one video mode over the other or don't care at all, but I'm setting up a front end and I'm trying to set everything up the way it was intended to be played originally.
Any help is appreciated. Thanks.

[Tempest]

An interesting topic.  I don't have any answers for you but I'm curious about what others will say.

[Rybags]

Most games are based on screen refresh rate which ~ 60 FPS for NTSC, 50 for PAL.

In plenty of cases NTSC rate is preferred.  It'll often be the case that games developed on NTSC and ran on PAL are annoyingly slow and those dev'd on PAL and run on NTSC are too fast and hard.

 

Encounter I suspect might be not so relevant - my guess is it's rendered at whatever rate the engine can manage which in case of action occurring is probably less than both - similar to some of the Lucasfilm games like RoF, Eidelon and Koronis Rift.

 

PAL can often take the advantage in games that usually render slower than the refresh rate since in most hires screen environments the net system speed is actually faster (more available cycles per second)

[oracle_jedi]

Here's the story of the origin of Encounter, Novagen and Paul Woakes career as a software developer.   From this I would be somewhat certain Encounter was originally coded on a UK-spec PAL Atari.

 

http://mercenarysite.free.fr/mnovagen_story_bruce_jordan.htm

 

Alas Paul died in 2017, so asking the man himself is no longer an option.

 

All of Paul's games were amazing.   I loved Encounter.   And Mercenary on the Atari 8-bit was the first and only game I faked illness to bunk off school to play.  It remains one of the few games I have fully completed.

[Kr0tki]

6 hours ago, Rybags said:

Most games are based on screen refresh rate which ~ 60 FPS for NTSC, 50 for PAL.

The issue is not only about refresh rate, but also about colour palettes and pixel aspect ratios. Games generally look better when played in their original TV system.

 

I agree with advfan that the developer's country of origin is the right way to categorize in all cases. I also consider Cohen's, Rosen's and Sculptured's games as NTSC and Novagen and Llamasoft as PAL. But, it's not always as clear cut. Consider "Panther" - designed by Sculptured, so with NTSC in mind regarding gameplay and graphics (the bottom panel even utilizes artifacting!), but music for the game was by Englishman David Whittaker, probably composed on a PAL machine. So you can either play the game on its intended speed and therefore difficulty, or listen to the great music with its intended tempo, but not both at the same time. First world problems! ?

[xxl]

It is also a good test to analyze the frequencies stored in music engines (table of notes). The values are different for NTSC and PAL.

[youxia]

Trying to figure out which version is "correct" can be a trip down a very deep rabbit hole (apart from subjectivity)...especially in case of multi-platform games. I know this subject rather well from Amiga. It's interesting to talk about though, for sure.

[www.atarimania.com]

There are some games out there where the country of origin is still an absolute mystery. Is there any way to determine whether they come from a PAL or NTSC country? Off the top of my head, I can think of Pond, Laser Tennis, MegaGun, Road Race (Action Software)...

 

 

[xxl]

23 minutes ago, www.atarimania.com said:

Road Race (Action Software)...

 

 

and this is an example of what I wrote about earlier, the frequencies are for NTSC:

7670: 35 2F 3C 48 48 40 51 51 35 2F 3C 48 48 40 51 51  
7680: 6C 60 79 90 90 80 90 99 A2 A2 00 00 28 28 6C 66  
7690: 60 3C 3C 60 3C 3C 60 3C 3C 3C 3C 3C 3C 3C 35 32  
76A0: 2F 3C 35 2F 2F 40 35 35 3C 3C 3C 3C 3C 3C 6C 66  
76B0: 60 3C 3C 60 3C 3C 60 3C 3C 3C 3C 3C 3C 3C 48 51  
76C0: 55 48 3C 2F 2F 35 3C 48 35 35 35 35 35 35 6C 66  
76D0: 60 3C 3C 60 3C 3C 60 3C 3C 3C 3C 3C 3C 3C 35 32  
76E0: 2F 3C 35 2F 2F 40 35 35 3C 3C 3C 3C 3C 3C 3C 35  
76F0: 2F 3C 35 2F 2F 3C 35 3C 2F 3C 35 2F 2F 3C 35 3C
7700: 2F 3C 35 2F 2F 40 35 35 3C 3C 3C 3C 3C 3C

 

of course, this is not a confirmation of anything, but only a suggestion - because there are known cases when the publisher provided their own procedures (graphic/music) which we can see traces of in games of different developers.

Edited January 25, 2022 by xxl

[Mclaneinc]

 

I think it's 99.9% that Encounter was designed on a UK machine and there's reasoning behind this. In 1980+ there were no RGB or better mods so composite at best would be PAL only from a PAL machine, no colour from an NTSC machine. So unless they had a US machine and a US monitor it would be unlikely they would code for NTSC. I'd imagine importing both monitor and machine would have been a bloody expensive option, and not something a bedroom coder would be up for unless they were already well off.

 

And can you imagine a UK coder coding for the US market back then, they were trying to get on their own market first and foremost, if things took off then maybe.

 

On the plus side, when RGB became a thing used commonly then getting a USA or Japanese console, say the Snes was a good move, around a 17.5% speed increase (or there abouts) and no monitor needs as long as it supported RGB. And if you take a game like Super R-Type on the Snes, it already had a lot of slowdown on a USA or Japanese machine, playing on a PAL machine was a nightmare on most stages.

Edited January 25, 2022 by Mclaneinc

[www.atarimania.com]

2 hours ago, xxl said:

and this is an example of what I wrote about earlier, the frequencies are for NTSC:

7670: 35 2F 3C 48 48 40 51 51 35 2F 3C 48 48 40 51 51  
7680: 6C 60 79 90 90 80 90 99 A2 A2 00 00 28 28 6C 66  
7690: 60 3C 3C 60 3C 3C 60 3C 3C 3C 3C 3C 3C 3C 35 32  
76A0: 2F 3C 35 2F 2F 40 35 35 3C 3C 3C 3C 3C 3C 6C 66  
76B0: 60 3C 3C 60 3C 3C 60 3C 3C 3C 3C 3C 3C 3C 48 51  
76C0: 55 48 3C 2F 2F 35 3C 48 35 35 35 35 35 35 6C 66  
76D0: 60 3C 3C 60 3C 3C 60 3C 3C 3C 3C 3C 3C 3C 35 32  
76E0: 2F 3C 35 2F 2F 40 35 35 3C 3C 3C 3C 3C 3C 3C 35  
76F0: 2F 3C 35 2F 2F 3C 35 3C 2F 3C 35 2F 2F 3C 35 3C
7700: 2F 3C 35 2F 2F 40 35 35 3C 3C 3C 3C 3C 3C

 

of course, this is not a confirmation of anything, but only a suggestion - because there are known cases when the publisher provided their own procedures (graphic/music) which we can see traces of in games of different developers.

 

The puzzling part is that the bottom of the screen is only visible on PAL systems. 

[_The Doctor__]

What do you mean? What makes you say the bottom of the screen is not visible?

2 Road Race listed that I see ... both are NTSC....

[www.atarimania.com]

1 hour ago, _The Doctor__ said:

What do you mean? What makes you say the bottom of the screen is not visible?

2 Road Race listed that I see ... both are NTSC....

 

What two versions? What do YOU mean? Time / miles are not visible on NTSC systems, unless my settings are wrong:

http://www.atarimania.com/game-atari-400-800-xl-xe-road-race_35863.html

[youxia]

Displaying on a CRT (from MiSTer) I can see the bottom in NTSC, but only top half the numbers are visible, rest goes into overscan. Probably PAL game then. Though "Bill" seems like an US name. So, yeah, a rabbit hole

[desiv]

16 minutes ago, youxia said:

Though "Bill" seems like an US name. So, yeah, a rabbit hole

Tell that to Bill Shakespeare.
Yeah, he and I were tight like that...

I remember when he said, "You homie, tho canst call me Bill."

 

Sorry  , anyway, it would be interesting to note any color differences.

I know in the Amiga forums I'm in, there is a significant NTSC/PAL diversion and I've heard the phrase "NTSC stands for Never The Same Colour" multiple times.

I am used to the speed issue, cutting off of the bottom of the screen, and/or the lack of color trying to display PAL on an NTSC CRT (composite).

 

But I'm not as familiar with differences in colors.

Might be nice to see some side by side images to see what one side is missing and finding out which was "intended."

[Kr0tki]

This "Road Race" is definitely PAL, because every in-game second takes 50 frames to pass.

6 hours ago, xxl said:

It is also a good test to analyze the frequencies stored in music engines (table of notes). The values are different for NTSC and PAL.

That test would be completely unreliable. Most developers back in the day didn't compute frequency tables on their own but lifted them straight from their xeroxed copy of Mapping the Atari or some other book.

Edited January 25, 2022 by Kr0tki

[youxia]

23 minutes ago, desiv said:

Tell that to Bill Shakespeare.

Ah, yes, Bill Shakespeare, the famous poet?

[www.atarimania.com]

16 minutes ago, Kr0tki said:

This "Road Race" is definitely PAL, because every in-game second takes 50 frames to pass.

 

Thank you, the information you provide is always very valuable.

[_The Doctor__]

Maybe track down the Pollards... They lived in Massachusetts, and North East States... who knows maybe someone went to college abroad?

Try William T Pollard and Tomas W Pollard... They wrote articles and software for the Apple and Atari... I know the names from Apple magazines, Atari notes, and even Softside articles citing them and their writing, perhaps they even wrote something for Softside.

 

Could be it's NTSPAL or PALTSC

 

Edited January 25, 2022 by _The Doctor__

[advfan]

Many thanks to everyone that has answered to the opening post. You have all been of great help.

As I said, in most cases it's clear what the preferred video mode is. Just a few cases left me stumbled. In Encounter's case, I prefer the blues of the sky in the NTSC version but then the bottom of the screen is somewhat dark. In PAL, the bottom is brighter, but the sky blues aren't as vibrant. That's why I needed help with identifying the original version.

You can see obvious NTSC-PAL color differences when running the german Ariolasoft-Axis Computerkunst intro.
In PAL the colors are fine, in NTSC they are hideous.

When switching to NTSC in Blinky's Scary School you get screen garbage.

And from what I remember reading, some games are unfinishable in NTSC due to the Hz difference (ElektraGlide or Last V8) and that's why I was surprised that those titles also got a US release.

 

When changing from NTSC to PAL, most of the times the differences are not that big, it's mostly a change in colors and music pitch.
Ballblazer sounds like running in slow-mo if switched to PAL, especially if you just heard it on NTSC minutes before.

 

So now I would love to hear your opinion for two other titles:
Thunderfox: Programmed in GB and in my opinion colors are better in PAL, but it got a release in the US in cartridge form. So best way to play it would be via the original GB release or if using a cartridge, setting all as if the cartridge would be from GB too.
Dropzone: Programmed by the God that is Archer Maclean. So a GB release, but I have to say that I prefer the color of the ground in NTSC (brown) than in PAL (kinda reddish). Opinions? Preferences?

The only time where I have seen an NTSC release having better colors when switching to PAL is in Blue Max 2001. Where in NTSC the bottom is dark green, in PAL it's brown, and judging by the C64 version, brown is the intended color.

Of course when I mention 'better' it's just a subjective criteria and others may like it better the other way.

 

Btw, for display I'm using Altirra with default palette, aspect ratio preserved and OS screen only on a computer monitor, not a CRT or real hardware.

[kiwilove]

On 1/25/2022 at 9:00 PM, oracle_jedi said:

Here's the story of the origin of Encounter, Novagen and Paul Woakes career as a software developer.   From this I would be somewhat certain Encounter was originally coded on a UK-spec PAL Atari.

 

http://mercenarysite.free.fr/mnovagen_story_bruce_jordan.htm

 

Alas Paul died in 2017, so asking the man himself is no longer an option.

 

All of Paul's games were amazing.   I loved Encounter.   And Mercenary on the Atari 8-bit was the first and only game I faked illness to bunk off school to play.  It remains one of the few games I have fully completed.

Sad to hear of Paul's passing.  Thanks for the info - I did think Paul was behind a fast tape loading system for the C64.

I did happen to have been in Birmingham mid '83 and called at this Atari computer store.  I think Paul Woakes was there demoing his new Encounter game, and I was blown away by it.  I can't remember much about that incident now because I do have a poor memory.  I was in that city for a Star Trek convention and happened to be at the right time and place to see Encounter running.

Someone did a copy of Encounter - I think it's called Deathzone - and it was published by ANALOG.  One of those type in machine code programs - that I did type in.  I presume it's by someone getting to know the Atari hardware (and assembler programming), being inspired by Encounter.

 

Harvey

 

[sargie]

My understanding is Dropzone was designed for PAL machines. 

 

Certainly, every time I have played it on an NTSC machine it is way too fast. Someone did a hack a few years ago to slow it down but it "jitters" every so often.

 

On a PAL machine, I used to be able to play Dropzone forever (until I got bored) and I can still get 1 million today without even trying until my arthritic hands seize up... On an NTSC machine running the non-hacked game I have trouble breaking 1 million.

 

If there is an official, correctly timed NTSC version I'd love to get my hands on it.

 

As a separate note. As a Brit who has lived in the North America for 20 years, it amazes me just how noticeable it has been going back to PAL land and hearing movies and TV shows running at the wrong speed. It's really noticeable on music when something has been converted to PAL (like a movie) because the running times are shorter and everything is sped up

Edited January 26, 2022 by sargie

[sargie]

The Novagen stuff worked very well on both PAL and NTSC. Woakes had amazing attention to detail.

[oracle_jedi]

9 minutes ago, sargie said:

My understanding is Dropzone was designed for PAL machines. 

 

Certainly, every time I have played it on an NTSC machine it is way too fast. Someone did a hack a few years ago to slow it down but it "jitters" every so often.

 

On a PAL machine, I used to be able to play Dropzone forever (until I got bored) and I can still get 1 million today without even trying until my arthritic hands seize up... On an NTSC machine running the non-hacked game I have trouble breaking 1 million.

 

If there is an official, correctly timed NTSC version I'd love to get my hands on it.

 

As a separate note. As a Brit who has lived in the North America for 20 years, it amazes me just how noticeable it has been going back to PAL land and hearing movies and TV shows running at the wrong speed. It's really noticeable on music when something has been converted to PAL (like a movie) because the running times are shorter and everything is sped up

 

I seem to recall reading an article where Archer Maclean was not paid for Dropzone sales in the U.S., and no effort was made to adapt it to NTSC timing.   Hence the double-explosion when you lose a life.

 

Sometimes the unintended timing quirks work well though.  I think the Ballblazer theme sounds so much better on a PAL machine.   It sounds more moody, less frantic.   I love that.

[Kr0tki]

advfan, you are opening Pandora's box here ?

 

NTSC TVs have a "tint" setting for adjusting the displayed colours. It so happens that on most TVs from the 70s-80s tint was being set by default so that colours $10..$1F from the Atari palette would appear as golden-yellow. (Atari called this colour "golden rod" in their service manuals.)

 

BUT, the golden-yellow colour is not correct, at least according to the NTSC standard. By design colours $10..$1F are always equal in phase to the NTSC colorburst signal - and the colorburst is supposed to be greenish-yellow, not golden-yellow! Newer TV sets (including all flat-panels) and even some professional-quality monitors back from the 80s adhere better to the standard and so they display colours $10..$1F as greenish-yellow.

 

This issue bugs the hell out of me - I don't understand why NTSC TVs have migrated from the golden-yellow tint setting to the greenish-yellow one over the decades. @Trebor was investigating the same issue from the point of view of Atari 7800's palette emulation, maybe he knows why.

 

Anyway the consequence is, some developers even back in the eighties had their TVs set to either golden-yellow colorburst, or the green-yellow one, and designed their software around it. In fact, Atari themselves, when they were designing the PAL version of GTIA, apparently used the golden-yellow tinted display as a reference - because if you set the NTSC tint so that colours $10..$1F are golden yellow (and also adjust the colour potentiometer on the mainboard in accordance with the field service manual, i.e. so that colours $F0..$FF are identical to $10-$1F), then the colours on NTSC and on PAL are almost identical.

 

The next consequence is, there is no single "correct" colour palette for NTSC Ataris, and various emulators have different default palettes because of that. Atari800, for example, has the "greenish-yellow-colorburst" palette as default, but it is possible to adjust the tint in the settings to get the "golden-yellow" palette. Altirra, I believe, contains several palettes built in, some of them with greenish-yellow colorburst, others with golden-yellow one.

 

So, the reason you are getting hideous colours in Blue Max 2001 is probably that the game designer had his TV set so that colours $10..$1F were golden-yellow for him, and your emulator assumes them to be green-yellow. The unfortunate solution to this is to select different colour settings for different games. I hope your frontend supports this, otherwise you are screwed.

Edited January 27, 2022 by Kr0tki