Built myself a 486

[Keatah]

This zip has 3 MSD memory maps:memmap.zip

 

F5, No BIOS Shadow, No Doublespace

F5, BIOS Shadow, No Doublespace

F5, BIOS Shadow, Doublespace

 

I'm using genuine MS-DOS 6.20.

I'm aware of the issue with monochrome graphics.

 

23 hours ago, wierd_w said:

The location of the pageframe might be problematic.  Is there a specific reason you have it at E000?

I have no idea why I set it up that way. May have had something to do with a game. X-Wing? Duke3D? Possibly. It's been way too long to recall the precise reason.

 

23 hours ago, wierd_w said:

Adittionally, if you want to get RECKLESS-- there is an old vintage package called DOSMAX, that will relocate parts of the DOS kernel and parts of the DOS environment (Stacks, Files, etc..) into the UMB area, and claw back ~5kb.

Well that is certainly interesting. Something to play around with in a VM.

 

I'm ever so slightly averse to doing too many tricks and non-standard things on my vintage rig. Simply because of compatibility. Not that anything on it is mission critical - but more or a less philosophy & habit I've picked up over the last 20-years on Windows OS'es. Don't use none of those registry tweakers or loading special one-trick drivers or overclocking and settings modifiers.

 

And I really really hate finding something non-standard (non-Microsoft) causing a subtle issue and having to troubleshoot that. (old man syndrome perhaps?)

[wierd_w]

OK, just try a simple move of the pageframe.

Instead of M9 make it M3

 

DEVICE=C:\DOS\EMM386.EXE RAM I=B000-B7FF V M3

 

That will move it from E000 to C800, which is the next unallocated block after the video bios (which is present).

That will likely change the way DOS loads stuff high, and let smartdv load completely high, especially after running memmaker.

(see for instance, how my virtual machine refused to load the cdrom driver high until I moved the pageframe.)

 

 

Edited March 10, 2022 by wierd_w

[Keatah]

I moved the page to M3 and ran MEMMAKER. It made things ever so slightly worse. Dropped the largest executable program size to 590K, down from 603K. It did increase the largest free upper memory block to 17K, up from 11K.

MEMold.TXT MEMnew.TXT

 

Last time I tweaked any of this was around Christmas 1997. I suppose I'm alright with the way it's been since I don't have any game or application needing more conventional memory than what I've got now.

 

At the same time it isn't a problem to have other startup disks that skip loading some stuff. Comanche is one game that doesn't want any memory managers, and thus I need to startup without EMM386.

 

Ideas I've thought about (for this rig specifically) would be:

Remove doublespace and free up 35K.

Remove smartdrive and gain back 12K.

Remove the dynamic drive overlay and just not use the 1.6GB 3rd HDD. Gain back 8K.

Switch to ctmouse and recover a few more K.

 

It would be nice to put smartdrive in upper memory, somehow. I recall getting frustrated I couldn't figure out how to do that back in the day. Not with this setup. Pisses me off because I see there's 16K free and smartdrive is split in two, 16K upper, and 12K lower.

 

Maybe a solution will eventually present itself. Going to read the QEMM manual for fun and to brush up. Never figured I'd be toying with this 25 years later!

 

Only thing (at the moment) pissing me off more than the smartdrive thing is looking on ebay for a CL-GD5434 2MB ISA card. They're all over like 100 bucks, with some going as high as $200 - $500. Because "retro games".. Pffftt.. Fucking RETRO GAMES. DO YOU HEAR ME?

 

R E T R O  G A M E S

 

No! This is e-waste! Low-performance garbage. Stuff that's been rotting in landfills for the past 20 years!

Edited March 10, 2022 by Keatah

[Keatah]

[wierd_w]

1 hour ago, Keatah said:

I moved the page to M3 and ran MEMMAKER. It made things ever so slightly worse. Dropped the largest executable program size to 590K, down from 603K. It did increase the largest free upper memory block to 17K, up from 11K.

MEMold.TXT 1.9 kB · 1 download MEMnew.TXT 1.9 kB · 2 downloads

 

Last time I tweaked any of this was around Christmas 1997. I suppose I'm alright with the way it's been since I don't have any game or application needing more conventional memory than what I've got now.

 

At the same time it isn't a problem to have other startup disks that skip loading some stuff. Comanche is one game that doesn't want any memory managers, and thus I need to startup without EMM386.

 

Ideas I've thought about (for this rig specifically) would be:

Remove doublespace and free up 35K.

Remove smartdrive and gain back 12K.

Remove the dynamic drive overlay and just not use the 1.6GB 3rd HDD. Gain back 8K.

Switch to ctmouse and recover a few more K.

 

It would be nice to put smartdrive in upper memory, somehow. I recall getting frustrated I couldn't figure out how to do that back in the day. Not with this setup. Pisses me off because I see there's 16K free and smartdrive is split in two, 16K upper, and 12K lower.

 

Maybe a solution will eventually present itself. Going to read the QEMM manual for fun and to brush up. Never figured I'd be toying with this 25 years later!

 

Only thing (at the moment) pissing me off more than the smartdrive thing is looking on ebay for a CL-GD5434 2MB ISA card. They're all over like 100 bucks, with some going as high as $200 - $500. Because "retro games".. Pffftt.. Fucking RETRO GAMES. DO YOU HEAR ME?

 

R E T R O  G A M E S

 

No! This is e-waste! Low-performance garbage. Stuff that's been rotting in landfills for the past 20 years!

 

let me see the new config.sys and autoexec.bat

 

I want to see if memmaker simply decided to not load stuff high.

 

[zzip]

9 hours ago, eightbit said:

Looking around online (ebay, etc) are loaded with the DX-2 66 CPU's, but not so much the DX4-100's. The Intel version I am referring to. I wonder why this is? Maybe a shorter time out before the Pentium CPU was released?

The DX2-66 seemed like a super popular chip back then.   I knew lots of people who had them.   I was the only person I knew with a DX4-100 (AMD version)

 

11 hours ago, eightbit said:

Everything was reporting as it should. Even benchmarks reported it as running at 66mhz....but at the speed of a 386 DX-40

It's probably reading the 66mhz from the BIOS or chip itself.

 

3 hours ago, Keatah said:

I would imagine these 486 overdrives and the 3rd-party AMD-based equivalents like the PowerStacker and TurboChip were purchased by businesses and corporations. I knew of no gamer going after these.

Gamers on a budget maybe.   Some of these chips performed as well as a low-end Pentium for a fraction of the cost.   Corporations and name-brand desktops tended to go with Intel

[zzip]

20 minutes ago, wierd_w said:

I want to see if memmaker simply decided to not load stuff high.

Memmaker usually loads stuff high when it can, and specifies precise memory areas to load into

[wierd_w]

2 minutes ago, zzip said:

Memmaker usually loads stuff high when it can, and specifies precise memory areas to load into

It does, but I find it also just decides some things should not be loaded high for no apparent reason.

 

Sometimes just changing the order things get loaded helps too.

[Keatah]

5 hours ago, wierd_w said:

let me see the new config.sys and autoexec.bat

I want to see if memmaker simply decided to not load stuff high.

AUTOEXEC.BAT.txt CONFIG.SYS.txt MEM.TXT

 

4 hours ago, zzip said:

Memmaker usually loads stuff high when it can, and specifies precise memory areas to load into

Yes. It did do some specifying..

It also said the memory was already optimally configured when it finished.

 

4 hours ago, wierd_w said:

Sometimes just changing the order things get loaded helps too.

Yup. I remember doing that back in the day. I also remember that loading a driver would also require a bigger slot initially (to install itself) than it actually ended up consuming. Think the slack space in a parking lot. Needing room to actually maneuver.

 

4 hours ago, zzip said:

Corporations and name-brand desktops tended to go with Intel

Sure. It's always been that way. Even today. Just that I remember the marketing talking about:

Excel recalculation times

Landmark speed tests

MS Word replace times

PageMarker, CorelDraw, AutoCAD benchmarks

Tons of iCOMP indices and other synthetic benchmarks and raw MHz comparisons

..not that any of it was a bad thing. Just didn't see any talk about games aside from the occasional mention in a review or something.

 

5 hours ago, zzip said:

It's probably reading the 66mhz from the BIOS or chip itself.

Yes. That makes sense. Back then ID'ing chips wasn't as sophisticated as today. I tend to think the programs read the BIOS. I've seen the exact same string in the BIOS as what gets outwardly reported by diagnostics.

[Keatah]

14 hours ago, eightbit said:

So I have found thankfully a 486DX-4 100 CPU. I have been using the 486 DX-2 66 that came with this board (actually one of these came with each board I received) and while they are really good performers, the machine back in the mid-90's that I really wanted and could not afford was a DX4-100 machine. 

Care to look up and report what S-SPEC numbers are on your 486 DX2-66 chips?

Edited March 10, 2022 by Keatah

[eightbit]

3 hours ago, Keatah said:

Care to look up and report what S-SPEC numbers are on your 486 DX2-66 chips?

 

One is on the Asus board which is now in storage and the other is in this machine with a fan on it. But, when I swap it out for the DX4 when it arrives I'll at least be able to tell you what the numbers are on this one.

 

Do those numbers make any difference? Aren't all Intel 486 DX-2 66's alike?

 

[wierd_w]

Ok..

 

@Keatah

 

Yes. Its just not loading them high.  Also, insufficient UMB free. Suggest using ctmouse instead. It will all fit if you do.

needed changes in bold.

 

 

Config.sys

EVICE=C:\DOS\HIMEM.SYS /V /TESTMEM:OFF
DEVICE=C:\DOS\EMM386.EXE RAM I=B000-B7FF V M3
BUFFERS=4,2
FILES=20
DOS=UMB
LASTDRIVE=Z
FCBS=4,0
DEVICEHIGH=C:\DOS\DMDRVR.BIN
DOS=HIGH
BREAK=ON
STACKS=9,256
REM DEVICEHIGH=C:\DOS\MOUSE.SYS
DEVICEHIGH /L:2,35776 =C:\DOS\DBLSPACE.SYS /MOVE
DEVICEHIGH /L:1,9072 =C:\DOS\ANSI.SYS
DEVICEHIGH /L:1,13904 =C:\SB16\DRV\SBCD.SYS /D:MSCD001 /P:220
rem devicehigh=c:\dos\ramdrive.sys 10000 128 /e
rem device=c:\dos\interlnk.exe /LPT

 

Autoexec.bat

@ECHO OFF
PROMPT $P$G
PATH C:\DOS;C:\WINDOWS;C:\NU;C:\
SET BLASTER=A220 I5 D1 H5 P330 T6
SET SOUND=C:\SB16
SET MIDI=SYNTH:1 MAP:E
SET TEMP=C:\WINDOWS\TEMP
C:\DOS\SBSET /VOC:220 /MIDI:220 /CD:180 /M:215 /BASS:220 /TREBLE:157 /OPGAIN:4
C:\SB16\SBCONFIG /S /D
LH /L:2,23456 C:\SB16\DRV\MSCDEX.EXE /D:MSCD001 /V /M:25 /E /l:g
LH /L:0;2,45456 /S C:\DOS\SMARTDRV.EXE A+ B+ 1024 768 /V /N
LH C:\DOS\CTMOUSE.EXE
DBLSPACE /RATIO /ALL
MEM /c
showtime
WIN

 

Edited March 10, 2022 by wierd_w

[Keatah]

1 hour ago, eightbit said:

Do those numbers make difference? Aren't all Intel 486 DX-2 66's alike?

The main differences would be:

Engineering samples

Writeback vs Writethrough cache

SL stop-clock capability

https://www.cpu-world.com/CPUs/80486/Intel-A80486DX2-66.html

[The Usotsuki]

Although PC DOS 7 lacks MEMMAKER (you can pull it in from MS-DOS 6.x and it'll work)

 

it has COMMAND /H and DOSDATA=UMB, which can load even more stuff high than MS-DOS 6.2.

[eightbit]

I tried ctmouse again this evening and now it works....so odd. Maybe I didn't have the VLB IO drivers installed first before I tried it. I have been through so much configuring I really cannot remember

 

But yeah, it certainly helps and is lightweight as touted. I reinstalled DOS/WIN and this time kept away from QEMM. It worked awesomely the first time I tried it, but not so much later on. And it caused issues with MPU-401 midi to my synth with however it is handling the SB init strings. So, just a regular install of all of my stuff and now with ctmouse as the mouse driver and good old memmaker and I get 615K. Good enough for me.

 

 

[eightbit]

Forgot to add the reason I was playing with MPU-401 today. I finally received this cable in the mail. Not an easy cable to find. Well, you can find cheap Chinese knock-offs on Aliexpress. But this is the real Roland cable. Found it for $5...and it was pretty darn hard to find. Tested my Roland SC-50 with the 486 today and wow....mind blown. Rise of the Triad and Doom sound unbelievable!

 

[eightbit]

And, on another note. I wanted to add that the VLB IO controller board I purchased actually is not supposed to have support for ATAPI CD-ROM drives. I have found that it was just luck that it actually works with this particular board. Other users with other UMC boards online have reported that they had to use a separate IDE CD-ROM controller card (or a SB card with a compatible IDE) to get CD-ROM access going. 

 

It's strange as the board does not show that it is detecting a CD-ROM on the secondary channel, but lo and behold the CD-ROM driver does indeed find it. In Windows 3.11 there is one quirk in that I have to turn off 32-bit disk access in the control panel in order to install MCI CD Audio and use it. If not turned off it blue screens. But, turned off the CD-ROM is fully detected by Windows and CD audio can be played. I am not sure if there is a downside to turning off 32-bit disk access but everything appears to work the same nonetheless.

 

Maybe it would affect platter HDD speeds but since this is CF I don't notice any change? I don't know enough about it but I do know that the CD-ROM drive works perfectly for data and music so I am pretty happy there. 

 

From what I read there are very few VLB IO cards that support ATAPI on the IDE channels. 

[Keatah]

11 hours ago, eightbit said:

Do those numbers make any difference? Aren't all Intel 486 DX-2 66's alike?

The only performance-enhancing thing would the WB/WT cache. WB would be a little 3-5% faster - provided your mobo supports the scheme. The SL stuff would be for power management or mobile use.

 

I'm a big supporter of cache on CPUs of all kinds and sizes and stuff. It seems to be the one feature that lets a CPU keep its pipeline full regardless of what's going on in main memory.

Edited March 11, 2022 by Keatah

[zzip]

9 hours ago, eightbit said:

And, on another note. I wanted to add that the VLB IO controller board I purchased actually is not supposed to have support for ATAPI CD-ROM drives. I have found that it was just luck that it actually works with this particular board. Other users with other UMC boards online have reported that they had to use a separate IDE CD-ROM controller card (or a SB card with a compatible IDE) to get CD-ROM access going. 

 

It's strange as the board does not show that it is detecting a CD-ROM on the secondary channel, but lo and behold the CD-ROM driver does indeed find it. In Windows 3.11 there is one quirk in that I have to turn off 32-bit disk access in the control panel in order to install MCI CD Audio and use it. If not turned off it blue screens. But, turned off the CD-ROM is fully detected by Windows and CD audio can be played. I am not sure if there is a downside to turning off 32-bit disk access but everything appears to work the same nonetheless.

 

Maybe it would affect platter HDD speeds but since this is CF I don't notice any change? I don't know enough about it but I do know that the CD-ROM drive works perfectly for data and music so I am pretty happy there. 

 

From what I read there are very few VLB IO cards that support ATAPI on the IDE channels. 

I used to run my ATAPI CD-ROMs off a VLB IO card with no issues.    No the card will not detect the drive by itself,  but the CD-ROM driver will find it.   486 BIOSes had no concept of these types of drives, but later BIOSes would autodetect these drives.

 

I think it was just a case that the ATAPI spec arrived surprisingly late, it didn't come until the mid-90s   Before that CD-ROMS were connected via SCSI or some proprietary CD-ROM interface (Panasonic, Sony, etc).  So they designed it so that existing systems without explicit hardware support for it could still use these new drives.

[eightbit]

5 hours ago, zzip said:

I used to run my ATAPI CD-ROMs off a VLB IO card with no issues.    No the card will not detect the drive by itself,  but the CD-ROM driver will find it.   486 BIOSes had no concept of these types of drives, but later BIOSes would autodetect these drives.

 

I think it was just a case that the ATAPI spec arrived surprisingly late, it didn't come until the mid-90s   Before that CD-ROMS were connected via SCSI or some proprietary CD-ROM interface (Panasonic, Sony, etc).  So they designed it so that existing systems without explicit hardware support for it could still use these new drives.

 

Thanks, that makes sense. Maybe people who were having problems just did not completely understand how to set up the CD-ROM driver.

 

 

[eightbit]

Figured I would post this for future reference for anyone using a SoundBlaster with midi problems. Between yesterday and today I have been trying to find out why the Roland midi synth only worked for me in games (Doom, Doom II, ROTT, Tyrian, etc) only once in a while. Most of the time the game would load with no general midi and run REALLY slow. Then, I found the fix here:

 

https://dos.retropc.se/sound/c_labs/sb16/00_index.htm

 

The sbmpu fix solved every problem and all games load fast with excellent Roland midi now that I added this to my system startup to be enabled each time I boot. I was really pulling my hair out on this one. I was thinking a resource conflict or something. But no.

 

Also, that link contains an sb16update for the drivers too. 

 

For reference, I am using a Soundblaster 16 Value model CT2770. This is one of the good soundblasters without the midi note hang bug thankfully.

 

 

[Keatah]

On 3/10/2022 at 10:18 PM, eightbit said:

Rise of the Triad and Doom sound unbelievable!

I don't doubt that for an instant.

 

Can you report the frame rate of Duke3d? Just type DNRATE during gameplay to get the counter.

[eightbit]

13 hours ago, Keatah said:

I don't doubt that for an instant.

 

Can you report the frame rate of Duke3d? Just type DNRATE during gameplay to get the counter.

 

I am hovering around 14-16 FPS with all details set to high. This is still with the 66 however as the 100 has not arrived yet.

 

 

[Cebus Capucinis]

I need to build something like this just for the Wing Commander games.  And X-Wing and TIE Fighter.?

[Keatah]

Better step to it. "RETRO GAME" and old PC parts prices are on the rise. A diamond speedstar ISA board will run you over $200. Other lesser ISA graphics gonna cost you 50-100. As I've said before, its actually e-waste. But RETROGAMES!